I don't think it matters at level 67. But, death strike is important to keep up your hp. When I was leveling, I was blood too and I didnt have a rotation. I only had to eat maybe 10 times on my way from 60-70
Though a nice attempt, I'm running a Mac. So the .exe won't help me in this situation. I appreciate, it, though :]
Also, from what I'm seeing in the Loot Rank link given before, I'm supposed to be stacking armor pen and crit? How well does haste stack compared to those?
Anyway, i don't think that the increase to Obliterate are big enough for you to change to using Obliterate over Death Strike, which i think you wanted to know by asking your question.
Please do correct me if i'm wrong in this assumption.
Well what I'm trying to figure out, is if the 4pc t8 bonus is worthless, or is a way to get its damage back up to pre 3.1 status. The only real nerf that happened to obliterate, was that might of mograine dropped obliterate's crit buff, and the obliterate glyph was a flat 20% buff and not just crits to compensate. Then they added DS to a bunch of other talents and skills. The question I have, is if 4pc T8 is a 5% damage buff to OB, or a 15% damage buff. (No real math done to determine actual theoretical bonuses). The problem with blizzard, is that both are an equal possibility. There are lots of set bonuses that are overpowered, and a lot that are useless. The fact that DS heals you unbalances the hell out of the skill. Im just trying to figure out before I get my 4pc bonus, hopefully next week, if they have restored the greatness of OB, or if 4pc t8 is totally useless.
Well what I'm trying to figure out, is if the 4pc t8 bonus is worthless, or is a way to get its damage back up to pre 3.1 status. The only real nerf that happened to obliterate, was that might of mograine dropped obliterate's crit buff, and the obliterate glyph was a flat 20% buff and not just crits to compensate. Then they added DS to a bunch of other talents and skills. The question I have, is if 4pc T8 is a 5% damage buff to OB, or a 15% damage buff. (No real math done to determine actual theoretical bonuses). The problem with blizzard, is that both are an equal possibility. There are lots of set bonuses that are overpowered, and a lot that are useless. The fact that DS heals you unbalances the hell out of the skill. Im just trying to figure out before I get my 4pc bonus, hopefully next week, if they have restored the greatness of OB, or if 4pc t8 is totally useless.
Blood DKs should not be casting OB at all. Ever. And the buff is about 3.33% or something like that for Heart Strike...so I cant imagine the buff to OB is anymore than 5%.
My main question revolves around Diseaseless Blood. It's stated early in the thread that it doesn't work. although i seem to be doing far above average with my spec and rotation.
My rotation as a disealess blood user is basically: HS HS DS DS DC (depending on rp i will dc once or twice). currently I am specced 51 / 1 / 19, I might change this about tho now that I no longer have 4 piece t7. here is an armory link: Merrique.
I would like to understand why you mean that disealess blood is obsolete, and why I should be Heart Striking and trying to manage diseases when it returns less damage..
My main question revolves around Diseaseless Blood. It's stated early in the thread that it doesn't work. although i seem to be doing far above average with my spec and rotation.
My rotation as a disealess blood user is basically: HS HS DS DS DC (depending on rp i will dc once or twice). currently I am specced 51 / 1 / 19, I might change this about tho now that I no longer have 4 piece t7. here is an armory link: Merrique.
I would like to understand why you mean that disealess blood is obsolete, and why I should be Heart Striking and trying to manage diseases when it returns less damage..
The reason diseaseless rotations are obsolete is because:
(1) Disease bonuses are no longer a flat bonus, but now a percentage.
(2) Diseases now (as of 3.1) last 3s longer.
(3) Disease bonus to HS is increases with 4p T8.
These factors make running a 2x disease rotation much better than a non-disease. If you don't believe me, read the math in this thread and check out top guild's parses.
The difference between a diseaseless Heart Strike and a diseased Heart Strike can range anywhere from 500 damage (noncrit) to 2000 damage (crit) depending on buffs/setting etc. It's proven before and all the WWS parse evidence points to the fact that diseased outperforms diseaseless by miles. If you're going to say you outperform diseased with diseaseless, provide a dps number that we can compare to diseased parses.
The reason diseaseless rotations are obsolete is because:
(1) Disease bonuses are no longer a flat bonus, but now a percentage.
(2) Diseases now (as of 3.1) last 3s longer.
(3) Disease bonus to HS is increases with 4p T8.
These factors make running a 2x disease rotation much better than a non-disease. If you don't believe me, read the math in this thread and check out top guild's parses.
Not to mention that since plague strike now hits harder, its less of a direct damage loss as well.
So that makes 4 really solid reasons not to use diseaseless anymore.
Diseaseless does have certain advantages from time to time though, but for real boss fights what most discussions basically revolve around, I don't see much reason not to use diseases.
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I want to add a question to this:
Most blood rotations i see start off with a death strike instead of an icy touch and plague strike, like this:
DS>PS>IT>HS>HS
HS>HS>DS>HS>HS
Is this purely because of abominations might and getting it up from the get go?
Or is this also to make the rotation easier somehow?
I understand that DS isn't reliant on diseases to do extra damage, so the loss is non existent anyway, but I'm just wondering if that's all to it.
Yeah, the reason to use DS first is to get Abom's might up at the very start of the fight, and you would only need to use that cycle once. However I don't like using Death Strike before I have at least some RP for the glyph, and if you raid with an Enhancement Shaman at all, they will have the buff up very quickly anyways. For general use, the two GCDs before you apply Abomination's Might is pretty negligible, but there are a few situations where at this gear level every second counts for making a timer or missing it (stuff like Hodir HM I'll open with DS because we have missed the timer by two seconds before).
Is this purely because of abominations might and getting it up from the get go?
Or is this also to make the rotation easier somehow?
Both, but mostly Abom's Might. Abom's Might obviously makes everything else hit harder (DRW too, I would assume) but also makes the rotation run a little smoother. By using DS first, youre able to use your first Death Runes on HS faster.
The very first rotation after a boss fight starts seem to regen runes slower than rotations after the first (runes take 7-8 seconds to regen after the first rotation, but first rotation runes take 10 seconds), so Ive had great success using:
Thats my first rotation. After that, I do the same rotation without Blood Tap and the extra HS. Using Blood Tap after the first rotation seems to reset the timer back to 10...so that one rune regens in ~10 seconds while the other regens in ~8.
Originally Posted by Siyx
Yeah, the reason to use DS first is to get Abom's might up at the very start of the fight, and you would only need to use that cycle once. However I don't like using Death Strike before I have at least some RP for the glyph, and if you raid with an Enhancement Shaman at all, they will have the buff up very quickly anyways. For general use, the two CDs before you apply Abomination's Might is pretty negligible, but there are a few situations where at this gear level every second counts for making a timer or missing it (stuff like Hodir HM I'll open with DS because we have missed the timer by two seconds before).
Between Rune Tap, Blood Tap, Vamp Blood, DnD (with 3/3 Morbidity), and Horn of Winter...stacking RP before a fight is easy.
Between Rune Tap, Blood Tap, Vamp Blood, DnD (with 3/3 Morbidity), and Horn of Winter...stacking RP before a fight is easy.
This is all very situational depending on what your raid composition generally is and whether or not you have really solid healers. Personally I find Rune Tap and Vamp Blood to be a waste of filler in my raiding build because my healers are, to put it bluntly, amazing. If I ever die it's due to un-healable or savable damage (read: me doing something I shouldn't have) and while these talents make you slightly more self-sufficient and a lower maintenance heal target I found myself never needing to use them for healing. It would be silly to take these talents as some roundabout DPS gain, as Blood Worms will give you a very marginal DPS increase for none of the effort.
This is all very situational depending on what your raid composition generally is and whether or not you have really solid healers. Personally I find Rune Tap and Vamp Blood to be a waste of filler in my raiding build because my healers are, to put it bluntly, amazing. If I ever die it's due to un-healable or savable damage (read: me doing something I shouldn't have) and while these talents make you slightly more self-sufficient and a lower maintenance heal target I found myself never needing to use them for healing. It would be silly to take these talents as some roundabout DPS gain, as Blood Worms will give you a very marginal DPS increase for none of the effort.
DnD with 3/3 Morb, HoW, and Blood Tap are still perfectly capable of getting you to the amount of RP you need. Only need to maintain 26 RP for max DS benefit.
DnD with 3/3 Morb, HoW, and Blood Tap are still perfectly capable of getting you to the amount of RP you need. We only need to maintain 26 RP for max DS benefit.
The gain from having a 26 RP Death Strike as your first swing is off-set by not being able to Blood Tap a Heart Strike during the first slow rune cycle. Anyways I'm sure why we're really debating this as both ways of doing things are perfectly viable depending on your situation.
The gain from having a 26 RP Death Strike as your first swing is off-set by not being able to Blood Tap a Heart Strike during the first slow rune cycle. Anyways I'm sure why we're really debating this as both ways of doing things are perfectly viable depending on your situation.
No, not really. If used properly youll know when to stop using Blood Tap before a boss pull. You can easily use 2 Blood Taps after a wipe, while youre running back to a boss and getting buffed. If you havent wiped, you likely wont need to use Blood Tap because youll have left over RP from a trash pull. Mainly due to the fact that it seems to be more beneficial to use your rune abilities on trash over Death Coil (HS cleaves, Blood Boil AEs, and DS creates Death Runes for more HSs/BBs...all of which do better damage than DC, and in some cases, a lot more). DnD and HoW are perfectly suitable in that case since left over RP from a trash pull should be pretty common as a Blood DK.
No, not really. If used properly youll know when to stop using Blood Tap before a boss pull. You can easily use 2 Blood Taps after a wipe, while youre running back to a boss and getting buffed. If you havent wiped, you likely wont need to use Blood Tap because youll have left over RP from a trash pull. DnD and HoW are perfectly suitable in that case.
Sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about here. Blood Tap gives you 10 RP which begins decaying immediately upon use, with a 60 second cooldown. While you can use two if you're running back after a wipe you see zero benefit of that when you engage the boss again, your RP is gone after 10 seconds and your Death Rune converts back into a Blood Rune after 20 seconds. So you Blood Tap, cooldown starts (60 Seconds), 10 seconds later your Runic Power from BT is gone, after 20 seconds you are back to double Blood Runes and you have 40 seconds left on the BT cooldown. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you but I just can't seem to follow your logic. On a side note not many guilds engage bosses within seconds of the last trash mob dying, for instance we do our player subs, rebuffs and strategy tweaks before we pull.
However, as I said before, if your guild is pulling bosses before you run out of RP from trash then that's great, but it won't be the case for everyone. Insert repeated "it's all about your situation" comment here.
Sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about here. Blood Tap gives you 10 RP which begins decaying immediately upon use, with a 60 second cooldown. While you can use two if you're running back after a wipe you see zero benefit of that when you engage the boss again, your RP is gone after 10 seconds and your Death Rune converts back into a Blood Rune after 20 seconds. So you Blood Tap, cooldown starts (60 Seconds), 10 seconds later your Runic Power from BT is gone, after 20 seconds you are back to double Blood Runes and you have 40 seconds left on the BT cooldown. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you but I just can't seem to follow your logic. On a side note not many guilds engage bosses within seconds of the last trash mob dying, for instance we do our player subs, rebuffs and strategy tweaks before we pull.
However, as I said before, if your guild is pulling bosses before you run out of RP from trash then that's great, but it won't be the case for everyone. Insert repeated "it's all about your situation" comment here.
You dont just use Blood Tap, you use everything in conjunction. Blood Tap, DnD, HoW. That gets you to about 30-31 RP. For the next minute, you use DnD and HoW. After the one minute mark, you use BT, DnD, and HoW. You should have close to 100 RP by that point. All of this is done out of combat, if needed.
If youve just finished a trash pull youll have left over RP most likely, but you can still cast DnD and HoW out of combat to keep your RP high. Highly beneficial since DRW has such a short cooldown now. Allows us to use DRW nearly every trash pull.
The point being...you can use DS first to get the benefit of Abom's Might immediately while still having RP stacked high enough pre-fight to get the 25% glyph benefit. Best of both worlds.
So should we be using armor pen gems over strength gems?
As for buff foods is it better to use the 40 str or the arp food as well?
Also, side note. I've been using "Glyph of disease" over "Glyph of runic weapon", allows me to refresh my diseases with just 1 blood rune rather than having to use another icy touch and plague strike, wondering if that's more beneficial than using runic weapon. Also went for the 51/0/20 with the NOTD over the 5/5 necro, wondering if thats better than 5/5 necro.
trying to maximize my dps for raiding and with the disease glyph i'm doing a
IT, PS, DS, HS HS, dump
DS,HS,HS,HS,HS,HS dump
then just a pestilence to refresh diseases and spam HS/ds combo's.
I use Glyph of DRW over glyph of disease. Everyone I talk to says glyph of disease rotations do less damage, but I can't really say from personal experience.
This is probably true. A lot of people think they a free refresh for 1 rune beats having to use 2 attacks consuming 2 runes. But if you simply look at what you gain and give up:
- With glyph of diseases you trade 1 HS for 1 PT, thereby losing full HS damage. Damage lost is thus: [ HS ]
- Without glyph of diseases, you trade 1 DS for 1 PS + 1 IT. So the damage lost is: [ DS - (PS + IT) ]
Just fill it in with your numbers and check what the bigger dps loss is. My bet is on glyph of diseases being a bigger dps loss than without.
The thing you do gain from the glyph is a free GCD though, which for blood is not something you can underestimate. However that is probably offset by the fact you give up a major glyph.
Using the numbers of some random blood WWS i found, you lose 5.8k damage on the glyph of diseases and 2.4k without. So the glyph of diseases loses you an extra 3400 damage every 20 seconds = 170 dps.
He did a total of 7.2k dps so the %dps loss is 170 / 7200 = 2.36%
Is 2.36% dps loss worth an extra GCD and the loss of a different major glyph. I doubt it.
Originally Posted by Doomers
Maybe someone did something like my "test" before - does it make any sense at all or it would be just a waste of couple hundred of gold?
Might work, but my guess is that there will be too much RNG to really get a good reading out of it.
The fact its still up for debate probably shows that the gain from switching, will be small.
And i think spreadsheets and simulators are the only thing that will give conclusive differences on it because those discard any external influence like latency / human error / excessive RNG
Hey, I just read abit more and have been trying to work out the disease-rotation.
I do have a few logs here that you can look at, this is me being diseaseless.
Bosses-1 this is with pretty much all the gear I have now. Bosses-2 this is with armageddon, t7.25 chest, and the amulet of dissolution (expertise, hit, agi, ap)
I suppose I might have been abit rash saying that blood with diseases returns less, was just my initial thought after hitting a dummy for a while, after having fiddled with the rotations abit it seems it returns about 200 more dps on the dummy, with alot more managing (in blood presence), than the diseaseless spec. takes more time to get it setup so it goes fluidly, but obviously since HS with diseases scales by % it should return more with better gear than DS and HS without diseases.
My spread when hitting the bossdummy (which removes necrosis) without any cooldowns was something like 35% HS, 25% melee, 10% DC, 10% DS, 3,5% IT, PS, BP, FF and BCB. worms account for about 1%.
and I was doing about 3000 on that dummy. which is as I said, an increase of about 200 dps from the diseaseless rotation(this is with horn of winter). Im looking forward to trying it in an actual raid.
Btw, I had a really hard time fitting in Death coils in said rotation, I found a few spots where I could get one out, but that was fairly seldom, and I haven't found a pattern yet, so I had max rp most of the time, is this common or am I doing something wrong?
Getting your diseases up first means at least one tick of damage. Also, it is worth noting that you'd lose the bonus damage from the Glyph of Death Strike by using it before you have any RP.
05/09/09, 2:50 PM
