There Will Be Blood (DPS) - Meet the new thread/Same as the old thread - Page 42

resky · 05/04/09, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by concept84

This has been covered alot already, but depending on the amount of ArP you already have, ArP starts to beat out Str point for point around 6000-6200 AP.

And yes around this point Ironsoul is a very very slight upgrade over Betrayer.

Link to math on that please, my spreadsheet (updated for arp soft cap) disagrees on the first point. But yes, Ironsoul is an upgrade over betrayer if you're wearing full t7+, but that's mostly due to horrid (for a DK) stat allocation on betrayer (no str, arp, or even hit) rather than the value of arp (which is of course a very important stat, but point for point str seems better, at least in my simulations).

I went the notd/ghoul glyph route so my spell damage component of total dps is lower than that of most people in this thread, but apparently still high enough to reduce the overall effectiveness of arp compared to str, especially if you look at pet scaling as well.

On that note, does DRW scale with ArP?

Lujaar · 05/04/09, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by Achon

When should the 4t7 be broke running as blood? Do I need to leave my tier8.5 tokens in the bank to rot until I have all 4 pieces? There seems to be some pretty decent loot even in 10mans that has Armor Penetration. Notably the Head from Razorscale and the Chest from XT-002.

With the upcoming nerf, 4pcT7 should generate 40 RP or 1 deathcoil over 80s. DRW zeros out your RP every 90s, so really you're getting 1 extra DC every 90s. That DC costs a GCD, and there are only two times you should have free GCDs:

-1-2 free GCDs while building up to a DRW, which you can't use for deathcoils whether you have 4pc or not, and...
-one free GCD in the first cycle after a DRW.

You have exactly one GCD in which to fire that extra deathcoil. If you have something better to do with that GCD - such as abusing Blood Tap to get in an extra heart strike - then you have to free up a GCD somewhere else. That means deathstriking off death runes, which eats up most of the gain from working in the extra deathcoil.

So the value of nerfed 4pcT7 won't be zero, but it will be pretty low. About 40 DPS, less if you have to DS off death runes to use the extra deathcoil. That's no more DPS than you'd get from one good upgrade, and it's not hard to find a good upgrade over the T7 chest or pants.

Royksopp · 05/04/09, 11:35 PM

My apologies if this has been answered before, but I've yet to locate the answer to this question...

Why is it that in the "BiS" thread they're showing 4p T8.5 as being our optimal gear loadout? I was thinking two piece T8.5 with assorted ArP/expertise/hit items in order to get us closer to our cap...

Am I wrong in this assumption?

Stein · 05/05/09, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Lujaar

So the value of nerfed 4pcT7 won't be zero, but it will be pretty low. About 40 DPS, less if you have to DS off death runes to use the extra deathcoil.

For reference, I'm approximating the two item bonuses like this:

critValue(critRatingPerPercent*critPercent)*percentageOfDamageDone

2/5 t7 bonus ~= 1.56*(22*5)*.13 == 22.3 AEP
2/5 t8 bonus ~= 1.56*(22*8)*.1 == 27.5 AEP

So on average DS does around 13% for me and DC 10%, so i prorated them accordingly. Again, pretty easy to make up those bonuses elsewhere.

Rhuu · 05/05/09, 1:31 AM

Here's a question I haven't found an answer to. Does DRW need to cast its own diseases to receive damage multipliers to Heart Strike?

Drayerina · 05/05/09, 2:41 AM

Why don't you try it on a dummy? Yes it does.

Spuddelkopf · 05/05/09, 4:27 AM

Then I wonder why everyone states to use DRW after applying their diseases, considering that diseaseless rotations were proven to be less dps than rotations with diseases. This should also apply to DRW.

vyrdone · 05/05/09, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf

Then I wonder why everyone states to use DRW after applying their diseases, considering that diseaseless rotations were proven to be less dps than rotations with diseases. This should also apply to DRW.

From my own (admittedly anecdotal) evidence, I disease my target before using DRW for 3 reasons:

1) I macro Hysteria into my DRW cast, so quite often I'm going into the rotation with that up as well; as such, using my runes for purely physical DPS is a DPS increase over that period.

2) DRW does disproportionally more of its damage via autoattacks as opposed to specials (or at least it was pre-3.1, this may have changed?), so the disease coefficient works out to less of DRW's total damage.

3) DRW's diseases fall off when it despawns, so the diseases themselves don't run their full duration, seriously diminishing the value per rune of casting them.

Again, not a mathematical justification, just a rough estimation of how the case has seemed to play out for me.

frozenkex · 05/05/09, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by vyrdone

3) DRW's diseases fall off when it despawns, so the diseases themselves don't run their full duration, seriously diminishing the value per rune of casting them.

Wrong, DRW's diseases stay, its just your addon (Like quartz) stops tracking them because the source is gone, Im sure i see 4 diseases when im the only death knight on target and DRW is gone after using diseases in its duration.
Or what i am seeing is a graphical/ui bug, but i doubt it.

tetracycloide · 05/05/09, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by resky

updated for arp soft cap

Which cap would that be? As I understand it there is no cap, soft or otherwise, on ArP since it has been proved that negative armor values are possible.

Lorenzop16 · 05/05/09, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

Which cap would that be? As I understand it there is no cap, soft or otherwise, on ArP since it has been proved that negative armor values are possible.

You are correct, there is no ArP Soft Cap, just a "Point of Uselessness" Which is 84%? i think? Someone may have to correct me there.

tetracycloide · 05/05/09, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Lorenzop16

You are correct, there is no ArP Soft Cap, just a "Point of Uselessness" Which is 84%? i think? Someone may have to correct me there.

What I'm trying to communicate, perhaps poorly, is that there is no 'point of uselessness' as far as I know. Once a mobs armor is 0, ArP continues to reduce the mobs armor into negative values which continues to increase physical DPS.

Lorenzop16 · 05/05/09, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

What I'm trying to communicate, perhaps poorly, is that there is no 'point of uselessness' as far as I know. Once a mobs armor is 0, ArP continues to reduce the mobs armor into negative values which continues to increase physical DPS.

According the the post made by Ghostcrawler the "Cap" for Armor Penetration is easily found by a formula.

The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3. Where C = The "Armor Constant"

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?!

Is that answering your question?

Stein · 05/05/09, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Lorenzop16

According the the post made by Ghostcrawler the "Cap" for Armor Penetration is easily found by a formula.

<snip>

Is that answering your question?

tetra is correct; GC is not:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...8/#post1202772

the implications of surpassing 100% ArmPenn are discussed upthread.

concept84 · 05/05/09, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by resky

Link to math on that please, my spreadsheet (updated for arp soft cap) disagrees on the first point. But yes, Ironsoul is an upgrade over betrayer if you're wearing full t7+, but that's mostly due to horrid (for a DK) stat allocation on betrayer (no str, arp, or even hit) rather than the value of arp (which is of course a very important stat, but point for point str seems better, at least in my simulations).

I went the notd/ghoul glyph route so my spell damage component of total dps is lower than that of most people in this thread, but apparently still high enough to reduce the overall effectiveness of arp compared to str, especially if you look at pet scaling as well.

On that note, does DRW scale with ArP?

Anytime you reduce the percentage of physical damage you are dealing and increase ghoul/pet/spell damage percentage of total damage the value of ArP diminishes because it affects less attacks.

My point about ArP is that it is sometimes better than Str given the right conditions. I'll try and sum up here what would increase the value of ArP point for point.

- More Attack Power
- More Strength (which converts into AP)
- More Armor Penetration
- Higher percentage of physical damage

It is very possible with a notd/ghoul glyph and a low ArP value that Str can outweigh ArP well past the 6k AP mark, however with the itemization on the new gear I assume that Blood spec DK's should be stacking ArP/Str and increasing their percentage of physical damage done by any means.

My sheet will eventually be available on a website I'll be creating for the entire community.

To my knowledge (I could be wrong) DRW is not affected by our ArP value.