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Old 05/17/09, 5:53 PM   #751
Lollersk8er
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Is the 100% cap before or after reduced ArP efficiency i.e. paperdoll or real value?

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Old 05/18/09, 4:54 AM   #752
cioby2k
Banned
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
i've been reading a lot now but i am a little confused. i saw that many talk about about 51/0/20 spec (and 51/2/18 variation), but i saw that this tends to differ.

before stating some conclusions and questions, i must say that i am using this 51/0/20 and as rotation i am using IT PS HS HS DS Rune Dump DS HS HS HS HS Rune Dump

from my point of view 51/2/18 has 2 points wasted in frost. why? because with a well managed rotation you are most likely to not get that 30 extra rune power (so the 3rd DC would be out of question). the only advantage i see to it is the extra 3 seconds for DRW but considering the fact you benefit of it once 1.5minutes, it is not that great.

as for 51/0/20 versions i fail to understand how would the variation of what i linked would be more beneficial (if someone can explain).

also i tried to test Sigil of Awareness vs Sigil of the Vengeful Heart. until now Sigil of Awareness > Sigil of the Vengeful Heart but i must say that i don't benefit of the bonus from 2t8. can anyone that has tested this with the bonus state his conclusion?

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Old 05/18/09, 7:14 AM   #753
maww
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Sen'jin
If you're hitting every death rune into a heart strike, that gives the 15% chance for a death coil. Also, with soft capped hit / expertise, you'll have enough room to launch those 2 death coils at the end of the rotation, making sotvh come out on top of sigil of awareness. Haven't gotten the sigil myself ): but overall on my parses, I have quite a few more death coils than death strikes, though death strikes do get that bonus crit damage :P

Last edited by maww : 05/18/09 at 7:23 AM.

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Old 05/18/09, 12:00 PM   #754
Soilantgreen64
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Originally Posted by concept84 View Post
The math has already been done and thats how the value of 6200 raid buffed AP came about. This is an approximation based upon multiple sims in which different stat values were used. As the overall percentage of physical damage increases, as AP increases, and as ArP amount increases, so does the value of ArP. As the value of ArP increases, the threshold of AP decreases where ArP passed Str.

As I've picked up more gear in Ulduar I've ran these numbers again and where ArP takes over Str seems to stay very similar. With full Necrosis and BCB (meaning more physical damage), 2pc T8 and ArP off-pieces (19% ArP value from gear) the threshold only drops by 150 or so AP.

I'm running Frost for the next two weeks to test that spec out with 4pc T8, but when I get back to Blood I'll be replacing some of my gems with ArP gems. My goal is to get up to around 25% ArP from gear, while still maintaining the 6200 AP threshold so when Grim Toll procs I'll be around that 100% cap.
Are you including Abominable Might in your "6200" figure? Your uptime on bosses should be at or near 100%, so I'm curious if the methods used to arrive at 6200 assumed 6200 before or after Abominable Might was applied. This really would make a huge difference, as you can start stacking AP much sooner in T8 gear progression if you can include Abominable Might to reach that 6200 mark.

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Old 05/18/09, 1:40 PM   #755
Essle
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by cioby2k View Post
i've been reading a lot now but i am a little confused. i saw that many talk about about 51/0/20 spec (and 51/2/18 variation), but i saw that this tends to differ.

before stating some conclusions and questions, i must say that i am using this 51/0/20 and as rotation i am using IT PS HS HS DS Rune Dump DS HS HS HS HS Rune Dump

from my point of view 51/2/18 has 2 points wasted in frost. why? because with a well managed rotation you are most likely to not get that 30 extra rune power (so the 3rd DC would be out of question). the only advantage i see to it is the extra 3 seconds for DRW but considering the fact you benefit of it once 1.5minutes, it is not that great.

as for 51/0/20 versions i fail to understand how would the variation of what i linked would be more beneficial (if someone can explain).

also i tried to test Sigil of Awareness vs Sigil of the Vengeful Heart. until now Sigil of Awareness > Sigil of the Vengeful Heart but i must say that i don't benefit of the bonus from 2t8. can anyone that has tested this with the bonus state his conclusion?
Personally, I have found 52/0/19 to be more practical. I know that on paper this spec is not optimal but from what I have seen (in Ulduar at least) my worms constitute a very small % of my damage and having that quick rune tap has saved my life a time or two.

I know, I know; if the healers are on the ball and all is well, I shouldn't need it. We are currently learning Yogg and when I am down there on my own it helps to have that quick health injection and sometimes I hit it during movement just to make the healers life easier. I think it's really the same philosophy as hitting cooldowns on Ignis. Using anti-magic shell etc isn't necessarily good for dps but it sure makes me an easier person to keep alive.

Some people take two points in epidemic to offset movement and loosen up the rotations a bit. I personally haven't had much issue with this so I stick to 1 point. MY point being that you have to find what works for you in your guild as a dead dk does no dps

I'm not claiming to put out the most amazing numbers but I do decent dps. Here's a parse Ulduar

Last edited by Essle : 05/18/09 at 1:50 PM.

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Old 05/18/09, 1:46 PM   #756
Essle
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by concept84 View Post
My goal is to get up to around 25% ArP from gear, while still maintaining the 6200 AP threshold so when Grim Toll procs I'll be around that 100% cap.
I'm not sure this works out to 100%.

I currently run about 43% ArP and with a grim toll proc, this puts me at around 95% I believe (I may be off by a % or 2 since I am doing this from memory at work). If you factor in blood gorged this does indeed put me over 100%. My point being that I don't think 25% with the proc is going to get you to 100%.

I probably need to dig up the formula and plug some numbers in...

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Old 05/18/09, 2:38 PM   #757
AtheistGod
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
Grim Toll was something like 39.95% pre-buff. It is now 49.7%.

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Old 05/18/09, 3:35 PM   #758
tetracycloide
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Warlock
 
Quel'dorei
Originally Posted by Essle View Post
I thought this was already calculated at ~6200 AP being the point where ArP > Str.
This is no fixed value of AP where ArP > Str. The value of each stat varies relative to one another with each other and with every other stat. Stacking more crit, for example, will tend to make Str stronger relative to ArP because there are abilities that can crit that scale with AP but not ArPen. The idea that there is one AP number when ArP becomes better, point for point, than Str is ludicrous. The realtive strength of Str and ArPen will vary with gear, raid composition, and spec and should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

My vanity is justified.

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Old 05/18/09, 4:20 PM   #759
Melchior
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Considering switching points around in my 51/2/18 spec for Bloodworms. Currently those points are in Mark of Blood and Imp. Blood Presence; obviously Bloodworms would be a DPS increase over those two, but I'm concerned over whether the little guys will cause me any issues in regards to their aggro. Also, do they avoid the mountains of AoE somehow (passive avoidance?) or do they just curl up and die a lot? I am not a fan of pets in the slightest, especially ones I can't control directly, but if they're not an inconvenience AI-wise they're probably better than what I have those points in now.


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Old 05/18/09, 4:46 PM   #760
yek366
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Executus
Originally Posted by Melchior View Post
Considering switching points around in my 51/2/18 spec for Bloodworms. Currently those points are in Mark of Blood and Imp. Blood Presence; obviously Bloodworms would be a DPS increase over those two, but I'm concerned over whether the little guys will cause me any issues in regards to their aggro. Also, do they avoid the mountains of AoE somehow (passive avoidance?) or do they just curl up and die a lot? I am not a fan of pets in the slightest, especially ones I can't control directly, but if they're not an inconvenience AI-wise they're probably better than what I have those points in now.
This depends solely on your trust of the healers. I have yet to have issues where a rune tap would save my life, so I take 3/3 bloodworms. Granted, it only adds like 75 dps for 3 points, it still adds dps whereas rune tap and improved rune tap won't (assuming healers keep you alive). As for the healing done, it really isn't enough to change things in the long run, they heal for ~250 per swing, but with the amount of burst in Ulduar, I wouldn't consider the healing "life-saving". In the end it just matters how much you trust your healers.

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Old 05/18/09, 6:10 PM   #761
Ghraabthar
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Mannoroth
I'm using the 52/0/20 spec with the bloodworms, and I haven't run into any problems caused by the worms. However, I OT all the multitank fights in the 10 man so I can only safely say for Hodir, Mimiron, General, and Yogg. Out of all these fights I'd think Yogg and Mimiron would be potentially the most precarious if the worms were to cause any trouble (proximity mines and green clouds in P1 respectively).

In the end, after getting the pure DPS talents in the blood tree, Blood Worms is the only filler talent that will actually give you more dps. Granted I get 80 or so on a typical fight but its better than 0 lol.

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Old 05/18/09, 6:23 PM   #762
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Pets don't trigger mines or clouds, so that's nothing to worry about.

To be honest, the only reason I take Rune Tap over worms is because it makes soloing elites and old content easier when you have a heal on command. Though, I do wonder if Blood Worms would do more healing over time and end up being more worthwhile despite AoE killing them in some cases.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 05/18/09, 7:36 PM   #763
Melchior
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
Pets don't trigger mines or clouds, so that's nothing to worry about.

To be honest, the only reason I take Rune Tap over worms is because it makes soloing elites and old content easier when you have a heal on command. Though, I do wonder if Blood Worms would do more healing over time and end up being more worthwhile despite AoE killing them in some cases.
That's partly my thinking as well. I currently have the MoB/IBP for similar reasons, but with the increased healing on the Bloodworms I wonder if it wouldn't work out to be about the same. My bigger concern with them is simply how often they're really going to be alive in a raid; if the don't have any AoE avoidance or anything I can't see them ever living more than a few seconds on most of the fights in Ulduar.


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Old 05/18/09, 8:09 PM   #764
Zanador
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Echo Isles
I still hear people constantly talking about the 6200 AP threshold. This was calculated before the "nerf" to ArP that capped it at 100%- does this still apply now?


The main thought is that gemming and stacking ArP will not get you to 100% without grim or Mjo- but will make it so you go over a good amount whenever there is a proc up. So this means that any extra Arp during that time is just extra, while gemming for str would continue to effect you while the proc was on.


Someone better than me at the formula's would need to recheck to make sure we should still be gemming ArP at the 6200 threshold, or if the cap on ArP changes the game.

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Old 05/18/09, 8:28 PM   #765
Leaflock
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Zanador View Post
I still hear people constantly talking about the 6200 AP threshold. This was calculated before the "nerf" to ArP that capped it at 100%- does this still apply now?
As tetracycloid's post says above you, "There is no fixed value of AP where ArP > Str." The value of ArP depends on all your dps stats, including how much ArP you have.

I don't even recall where the 6200 ap figure came from-- I think it was someone's estimate based on running the old version of the simulator. The point at which ArP becomes better than Str will vary from person to person, and your best bet is to run an extra long sim yourself to compare. The other point that has been often raised is that Str is still always your all-around best stat. In any AOE situation, Str is better.

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