MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Is there a talent point bug?

Based on my guild's WWS parse from last night in Ulduar my Rune Weapon makes up for about 4-5% (non-glyphed) of my total dps. I'm not sure how much Blood Gorged brings, but I do think a perma-ghoul alone would bring enough to make up for not having DRW. However I expect my DRW to do much more when I can find the glyph.

It could be very possible, provided you had enough ArP and Exp without Blood Gorged, and no DRW glyph, that a spec with perma-ghoul could yield higher DPS.

I might take a look at this down the road after I see what a glyphed DRW can do, and when I personally have more Expertise.

Hey - first post here, looking forward to doing more

Firstly you can probably theorycraft it pretty easily to see how much damage 5 seconds more DRW, whether its worth taking Glyph of DRW over the Glyph Of Disease i'm not sure, i'll look into it some time on a recount. (most likely is but today i found Glyph of Disease alot better than refreshing them and using the runes for a DS - only 1 GCD aswell)

Also, i'm pretty happy with 51/2/18 But what are people's thoughts about something like a 51/10/10?
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=9767#

Thanks and catch ya later.

anything conclusive on 5/5 necrosis 3/3 bcb, as opposed to 2/2 NOTD, 3/5 necrosis? First 3 fights appear to be a no go for aotd. Can't speak for any others. I personally don't have the parses available to show how much of my over all damage the ghoul is.

This was posted literally about 8 posts ago. 51/1x/1x is a bad build.

Correct.

Because it can save your life, and it makes heals easy. It doesn't really matter none of the other choices really affect DPS in a way.

Doing some quick 3-5 minute tests, I was finding a 44/0/27 build to be doing roughly the damage I remember getting from my 51/2/18 build on the PTR, within 50-100 dps, I can't be sure.

I'm not on a server with the DRW glyph yet so I can't test the 51/x/x spec properly, but can I get some people with higher gear levels (mine is relatively crappy) to test this out? How well does the ghoul scale with raid buffs?

You don't need to be remotely perfect for all your important strikes to fit within the 18 seconds allotted by 1/2 Epidemic. Take this standard rotation:

IT->PS->HS*2->DS->DC
DS->HS*4->DC*2

The final HS in the rotation takes place 15 seconds after IT is applied. There are nearly 3 full seconds left before the first of your diseases drops with 1/2 Epidemic. If your last HS is consistently hitting 3 or more seconds past the ideal the correct course of action is to practice your rotation.

Are you sure about those numbers? I tested that rotation several times on a practice dummy and every single time the last HS strikes a split second after FF falls off. I don't know how much more perfect I can be with the rotation if I use the every skill right when the GCD ends.

EDIT: I don't think you accounted for the amount of time it takes for the UF runes to refresh after IT PS. After you use the first DS, 4.5 seconds would have past since you used the unholy rune on PS, that leaves another 5.5 seconds before the second DS can be used. This means that the fourth Heart Strike can be used at the 17.5 second mark, where FF lasts 18 seconds. That leaves 500 ms for server lag.

In practice, I too had the same result.

Doesn't make any difference what you start with now.

It used to make a slight difference with the 51/13/7 build because the talents typically used in the frost would add a little damage to enemies already infected with a disease.

I use IT first now because it's a lot easier to hit it as I run to the enemy. I can start attacking a full 1.5sec faster then if I had to be in melee range to start with PS.

I stopped reading at this post to answer, so if someone already answered I apoligize.

I did, but I didn't include the details.

The very first time you execute the rotation it is as you say, the delay in waiting for the Unholy rune to refresh causes the rotation to skim near the end of Frost Fever. However, this first iteration primes all subsequent contiguous ones. The DS in the second half of the rotation aligns the UF runes together, and rune refresh mechanics work such that even when you IT PS they will still refresh together. Thus, the addition delay is removed. I have just tested this, and after the first iteration proper execution results in a consist 2+ second window.

However, having extensively battered the training dummies for a while, I'll slightly revise my opinion. The gap between when diseases drop off and are again refreshed is ~2.5 seconds, meaning that were one inclined they could take 2/2 Epidemic and wait a half second to get the additional tick. For someone who can precisely execute the rotation this is still likely a waste, but for anyone with significant latency it could prove worthwhile.

I would not at this point be surprised if a simulator proved that 2/2 Epidemic + a half second wait was equal to or greater than placing the point elsewhere.

Does Glyph of Blood Strike still works with FFB snare (on bosses, of course) in 3.1? If so, it seems that glyphed BS wins on single target dps over HS.

Because

HS Effective Damage: 87% Wep Dmg + 640.32
Glyphed BS Effective Damage: 87% Wep Dmg + 664.68

note: Effective Damage takes into account of talent, diseases and glyph modifiers

Hmm, not sure if you are in unholy stance for this? Or just smoking something buddy. I just spent the last few hours on this rotation. Your fourth HS hits right exactly as your first disease expires. NO ROOM whatsoever for error.

For people that asked about ArP, since i didnt get any response from guys on this forum about ArP i tested it myself. First off all i started with replacing all str gems in my gear with ArP ones, and did some tests on boss dummy. At the end my dps appear to be significatly increased, for now i wont provide any numbers since i have to test it in 25-man raid with all buffs, sunders, and fairy fire....for the record i have 25% ArP with talent, and using grimm toll trinket instead of mirror, my spec is 51/0/20, and as far as gear goes i'm running with allmost best in slot items.
I like to remind that this was only short test and not to be taken for granted becouse it needs some more testing.

I actually started wondering about this tonight after the raids and did a few ~10 min parses on the heroic test dummy.

I used a 51/0/20 build with DS/disease/DD glyph(no DRW available yet) and noticed that using pestilence over refreshing IT/PS actually gave me ~100 more dps over ghoul glyph and made the rotation a LOT simpler.

The other dps DK in our guild and I also did some quick napkin math and figured out that untill you get XT's deathcoil sigil the best glyph combo would be DS/DRW/disease. with deathcoil sigil you would replace the DS glyph for DD and end up with DD/DRW/Disease combo. Its late now so I only have a small sample of logs, I plan on doing some more extensive testing tomorrow and post my results here, but so far Im very happy with the results.

I don't know...diseaseless is still very viable and unless you have 4p T8 diseases are too much hassle.

Assuming you have obvious glyphs and talents

DS, HS, DC repeat is still working wonders.

It would be quite interesting to run a comparison between diseased and diseaseless rotations in a raid environment.

Totempole testing is sort of made invalid by the usual blood factor: armor debuffs on the mob. However what's interesting to notice is that in this regard Diseaseless is supposedly scaling better in raids than diseased, since disease dots only scale with AP while a fully strike based rotation will scale 100% with armor debuffs. Then we should evaluate the dot dmg scaling with magical debuffs, but we can't certainly make a proportion based on totempole dps (unless the difference is huge).

So far I noticed an exceedingly high difference between diseased strikes and diseaseless strikes to think that diseaseless is still so viable. I was testing on VoA 25 trash and I noticed upwards of 1.5k dmg difference between diseased HSs and diseaseless ones. I'll post calculation as soon as I have time, but I can't really model how 2 DS are superior to 2 PS, 2 IT, 2 dots and the extra damage on up to 6 HS.

Once again, I think the real reason that puts Diseaseless rotations so high in dps standings is that they are not GCD intensive. If you think about it, most of our calculations put 4pT7 very close to a set with 100 more STR simply because of a few extra DCs every other rotation. Imagine the impact of never losing a single runic power dump cast when comparing two different rotations. Even if theorycraft were to show that disease rotations are superior on paper, you just need to lose 2 DCs every 40 seconds to lag behind probably. In a RL environment, most people will perform better with diseaseless no matter what.

That's the thing, most of the fights are movement based and with Blood Presence anytime you don't get the next attack when the GCD is up your rotation is screwed.

I still use

51/2/18

and

DS>IT>PS>HS>HS>DC>DC/RD
HS>HS>(DC)>HS>HS>DS>(DC>DC)
IT>PS>(DRW)HS>HS>HS>HS>DC>DC
HS>HS>DS>IT>PS>DC
HS>HS>HS>HS>DC
HS>HS>DC>HoW/RD

rotation....suits me the best...my gear is not that gr8 i dont eaven have any part of Valorous and still nuke for like
3k on a dummy and 3500-4000 on naxx 25......

Can people please stop posting about Glyph of Blood Strike making Blood strike viable? It's been discussed several times over this thread and the last and every time we've come to the conclusion that Heart Strike wins out because it's a cleave and it doesn't soak up a glyph spot.

As for the difference between 44/0/27 and 51/0/20 I'm pretty sure that the latter will win out in the end because with Night of the Dead, the difference between ghouls is 33% uptime and raid buffs which, in my personal opinion, will not outscale both Dancing Rune Weapon AND Blood Gorged.

For the post about gemming for ArP instead of Strength, on a boss dummy without debuffs that will make a huge difference in your dps, however in a raid setting where the armor debuffs are up, the dps difference won't be (or at least shouldn't be) as huge.

Also, how is it that people keep mentioning ditching 2 points in Necrosis for 2 in Night of the Dead? Am I missing something or do you guys magically teleport to the next tier of talents without putting in 15 already? There's no way I can even get access to BCB/NotD without maxing Necrosis or putting excess points in Epidemic/Ravenous Dead.

I also have a hard time believing that a diseaseless rotation can match up to diseased right now. With diseases I was getting Heart Strike crits of up to 9k while without diseases I never saw a Heart Strike go over 6.5-7k. Even without that difference I would assume the self-healing from Death Strike with diseases would be enough incentive to put your diseases up as to skip the diseaseless option. Death Strike healing with 2 diseases for me was averaging about 15-18k; without any diseases it's 0.

Lastly, in regards to the rotation of 51/0/20 and the last Heart Strike hitting with 1 disease up, I can confirm what Darian has been saying that the first cycle is a primer and on that cycle and that cycle only do you have your last Heart Strike hit close to the disease drop-off. Every subsequent rotation for me on a 20 minute test on the dummy had my last Heart Strikes landing 2-3 seconds before the diseases fell off.

Interesting side note for Blood DK engineers.... The Pyro rockets (hand enchant) benefit from both Blood Pressence (15%) AND Blood Gorged (10%)... Average according to the tooltip is 1600, my average from tests as blood are 2000 (1600*1.25=2000) which equals about 45 DPS for the enchant.
HOWEVER
These rockets also benefit from ebonplague/CoE and can crit. They crit quite frequently and seem to have a minor multiplier (like 160%) as 2k average hit 3.3k average crit.

2k * 1.13 = 2260
2260 / 45 = 50 dps. With just self buffs and CoE, not sure what else might benefir them yet.

At the moment I just have it macro'd to Death Strike.... but I'm pretty sure this is by far and large the best enchant for blood spec.