I've tried up 10/61 build the other day on our 25man ulduar, and tested on XT (pretty dps time there).
I've done between 6.7k and 7.2k dps and tbh, i didnt found that usefull to have (obviously and for now, only on that fight) GF and IUP.
Either way, today on our 25-man again, since we didnt downed XT yet, i'm going with a custum 14/0/57 to see how it behaves.
Did some tests on boss dummy with this spec and pull off 3.2k dps, when compared to the 3.1k dps with 10/61 (using GFx2), self buffed.
Any thoughts on how having only 2 points on Necrosis and 2 on Dark Conviction would be better or not than having like 4 points on Necrosis only ?
Just as a quick little breakdown, here's a list of all the bosses IUP could either potentially save your life on or increase your DPS (trying to avoid giving away parts of the fight while still demonstrating why increased runspeed is useful):
-Razorscale (debatable, but being able to run between add groups is helpful)
-XT-002 (for running in and out faster)
-Council (running out and away from stuff)
-Kologarn (makes kiting laz0rs ez mode, though they're admittedly easy already)
-Auriaya (getting back in position after a fear could be enough to prevent a wipe)
-Hodir (not dying/getting back in range quicker)
-Mimiron (avoiding all kinds of stuff)
-Vezax (allows you to keep up with tank during kiting phase, makes dodging things/running away easier should you find yourself outside melee range for whatever reason)
-Yogg Saron (no firsthand experience, but everyone I know who has done this fight says IUP is amazing for it)
-Algalon (just a guess here, but almost all of the 'hardest' fights in this game require a good amount of movement...only exception might be M'uru)
Just as a quick little breakdown, here's a list of all the bosses IUP could either potentially save your life on or increase your DPS (trying to avoid giving away parts of the fight while still demonstrating why increased runspeed is useful):
-Razorscale (debatable, but being able to run between add groups is helpful)
-XT-002 (for running in and out faster)
-Council (running out and away from stuff)
-Kologarn (makes kiting laz0rs ez mode, though they're admittedly easy already)
-Auriaya (getting back in position after a fear could be enough to prevent a wipe)
-Hodir (not dying/getting back in range quicker)
-Mimiron (avoiding all kinds of stuff)
-Vezax (allows you to keep up with tank during kiting phase, makes dodging things/running away easier should you find yourself outside melee range for whatever reason)
-Yogg Saron (no firsthand experience, but everyone I know who has done this fight says IUP is amazing for it)
-Algalon (just a guess here, but almost all of the 'hardest' fights in this game require a good amount of movement...only exception might be M'uru)
I'd add Freya. Hard not to spoil anything, so lets just say there's a lot going on. And I would take Kologarn off the list. I never ever had a lazer pointing at me and neither had any other melee. As long as you stay in hitrange of his main body he seems to ignore you.
That said, in most cases you are not running at a target and therefore not increasing your dps with IUP. If it weren't for the increased survivability I'd immediately dropp the talent. And concerning survivability, I'll judge the talent after Yogg.
I'd add Freya. Hard not to spoil anything, so lets just say there's a lot going on. And I would take Kologarn off the list. I never ever had a lazer pointing at me and neither had any other melee. As long as you stay in hitrange of his main body he seems to ignore you.
That said, in most cases you are not running at a target and therefore not increasing your dps with IUP. If it weren't for the increased survivability I'd immediately dropp the talent. And concerning survivability, I'll judge the talent after Yogg.
Kind of agree. Even on Mimiron with all the stuff going on I found i could fairly easily manage without.
Also a lot of the movement are small things. Usually out and back in, and moving for 2 seconds or 2.1 seconds i doubt it's (dps wise) even noticeable.
That said, there is not a whole lot of alternative besides Necrosis (which I'm fairly disappointed with in 3.1 as well), although i might try the 0/15/56 spec for 10 mans without enhancement shaman.
Hello, I am currently using a variant of 0/10/61 with bis naxx gear. Up until 3.1 I was using 17/0/54, and I was always in blood presence. However, I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that with IUP it would be best to raid in unholy presence as it would seem that 10% faster rune cd would equate into a near 10% damage increase.
Now, movement speed aside, why is the faster rune cd not important? I know that there was some sort of 8.5 second cd on runes if you use it immediately or something but I have to admit the finer details escape me. I raided the first week of Ulduar 25 in unholy presence and topped our meters against equally geared and (I hope) competent people.
I get the fact that 15% dmg increase in blood presence is easily greater than 15% attack speed as we have dead time. However, the 10% faster rune cd has to count for something no?
It's pretty easy to see that blood presence is better, when you think about it. In blood presence you have 15% damage bonus to everything you do, whereas in unholy you only have 15% damage increase on your melee and can use your rune abilities 10% more often (in my mind saying 10% DPS increase on rune abilities) at no point during this will you see a damage increase on your RP abilities (UB and DC). The GCD decrease would be important if it were hard to find room in our rotation for RP dumping, but I normally find I have plenty of time to dump RP even with the 4pt7 bonus filling my tank.
This is all done in my head and I just woke up so I may well have pulled something stupid in there or forgotten an aspect of unholy presence.
That said, there is not a whole lot of alternative besides Necrosis (which I'm fairly disappointed with in 3.1 as well), although i might try the 0/15/56 spec for 10 mans without enhancement shaman.
What's the point unless you skill Improved Icy Talons? Icy Talons on itself only gives 20% more personal whitedamage, basically equivalent to Necrosis but dependent on Frost Fever.
It's pretty easy to see that blood presence is better, when you think about it. In blood presence you have 15% damage bonus to everything you do, whereas in unholy you only have 15% damage increase on your melee and can use your rune abilities 10% more often (in my mind saying 10% DPS increase on rune abilities) at no point during this will you see a damage increase on your RP abilities (UB and DC). The GCD decrease would be important if it were hard to find room in our rotation for RP dumping, but I normally find I have plenty of time to dump RP even with the 4pt7 bonus filling my tank.
This is all done in my head and I just woke up so I may well have pulled something stupid in there or forgotten an aspect of unholy presence.
[edited for clarification]
Thanks for the response. Yet, I am not so sure it is as easy as you assert. 10% faster rune cooldowns means you are able to generate more RP in the same period of time. So, you not only get the 10% faster rune cd, a 15% attack speed increase, but more runic power.
That being said, I was hoping to see some math from someone more knowledgeable than myself on the topic. So its 15% damage in blood vs 15% attack speed 10% faster rune cd, and increased RP from the increased runes being used.
Anyone out there able to give a thorough analysis of this?
Kind of agree. Even on Mimiron with all the stuff going on I found i could fairly easily manage without.
Also a lot of the movement are small things. Usually out and back in, and moving for 2 seconds or 2.1 seconds i doubt it's (dps wise) even noticeable.
That said, there is not a whole lot of alternative besides Necrosis (which I'm fairly disappointed with in 3.1 as well), although i might try the 0/15/56 spec for 10 mans without enhancement shaman.
Of course you can manage without it, everyone else can. However with it YOU DO MORE DPS because you get back on the boss a lot sooner. It's always been that way, movement boot enchants pre Wrath were always favored. The Necrosis talents are really bad per point, I really think people should just go 1/2 or 2/2 IUP over any Necrosis points.
Stupid question: I've been eating Dragonfin Filet's under the assumption that we gain nothing from the SP on Fish Feasts, but now that I think about it there SHOULD be some benefit to our spells. Definitely not worth 1 AP, but would the SP on Fish Feast plus the AP make it better than Dragonfin Filets?
It was stated long ago during Wrath beta that DKs would get 0 benefit from spell power from the devs since they didn't want DKs ever taking caster gear. Who knows if its still true but I would guess so. If you really want to try it you could go get a bunch of green cloth +dmg gear off the AH and test it with coils.
What's the point unless you skill Improved Icy Talons? Icy Talons on itself only gives 20% more personal whitedamage, basically equivalent to Necrosis but dependent on Frost Fever.
20% haste is actually quite a bit better than necrosis, and without knowing Foxx's exact 15/56, you will get the most white damage by splitting points since the two will effectively multiply (1.12*1.08>1.2). Haste also increases BCB damage, FC procs and other swing-based procs, and it is not subject to partial resists. Of course I've never tested it, but I assume glyph of SS applying FF will proc Icy Talons, so the uptime will be close enough to 100% that it doesn't matter much (though it might be worth being a little more conservative with disease refreshes to make sure).
That said, I'm not sure I'd respec for, say, Naxx10, and I'd much prefer to find a properly stacked group for Ulduar hard modes. :P
Originally Posted by Chirijaden
Thanks for the response. Yet, I am not so sure it is as easy as you assert. 10% faster rune cooldowns means you are able to generate more RP in the same period of time. So, you not only get the 10% faster rune cd, a 15% attack speed increase, but more runic power.
That being said, I was hoping to see some math from someone more knowledgeable than myself on the topic. So its 15% damage in blood vs 15% attack speed 10% faster rune cd, and increased RP from the increased runes being used.
Anyone out there able to give a thorough analysis of this?
10% faster rune cooldowns means 11% more damage (1/.9) more uses of all rune-based abilities, which includes RP as you noted. However, that's less than 15%, which is what you get from blood presence, and faster GCD is really not an advantage for a cycle in which I usually have free GCD to cast HoW just for its 10 RP. The only advantage UP has is that 15% haste increases FC procs or other weapon procs from, say, trinkets, but most trinkets are limited by ICD much more than swings, and FC uptime is already very high. For trinkets with damage proc like [Bandit's Insignia] or [Extract of Necromantic Power], UP is a loss because their proc rate is limited by ICD and their procs are multiplied by BP.
What math are you looking for? 11% < 15%. BP does more damage from rune and RP abilities and a minuscule increase in FC or trinket uptime doesn't make that up.
I doubt the 2 specs are that far apart, i've been getting very similar numbers.
You can not say that your spec is better because you did more dps than another DK that tested it out. He might be doing something different, or have more lag.
You can only really draw such a conclusion if you yourself use both specs. (And even then it stays a subjective conclusion).
Ulduar indeed as a ton of movement. As far as improved unholy presence goes, you don't exactly NEED it anywhere in ulduar though. However I very much doubt if, if you look at the talents in the bigger picture, there is much better to invest in. Im now using a 12/0/59 spec which has 3 points in necrosis (instead of 1) and 0 points in IUP, and frankly movement wise i hardly notice a difference, there are a few cases where the extra speed could be quite useful though. So I'm thinking about speccing back.
Unholy Blight is indeed less useful than in naxx, but not using it at all in ulduar is a waste. Unholy Blight is still the best RP dump as long as you can get the 30 seconds in. I think nearly every boss allows for that in ulduar, be it not constantly.
For the bosses i've done:
-Razorscale: great on adds, and he's on the ground for 20+ seconds so good on the dragon as well
- Deconstructor, no real question, semi-tank and spank fight
- Kologarn, useful you're more than 20 sec on a body part
- Auriaya, didnt do her myself, fear makes it hard though.
- Hodir, this is doubtful, you spend most time dpsing him. But you randomly have to run out, which probably makes DC superior
- Freya, useful
- Thorim, well this is mostly aoe, and at the end its a tank and spank. So better than DC i'd say.
- Mimiron, this is a dodgy one. In phase 1 its dodgy, in phase 2 its good, in phase 3 i was on soaking bomb damage, but if you aoe its good. In phase 4 its good because i think it damages all 3 parts.
We're personally on the General now, so can't really say how good it is there, but my guess is that its better to use DC.
The glyph made death coil a lot more potent, however back when unholy blight cost 60 RP it already was better damage per RP than deathcoil, so i doubt a 15% dmg increase makes a difference now.
I have to agree though that in a lot of fights its easier to focus on Death coils since you can't grantee you're in melee all the time.
You overestimate the T8 bonus, or you misunderstand what it does.
20% bonus on each part of the disease damage.
For scourge strike that is 11% per disease, increasing that with 20% gives 13.2% per disease.
That is a pretty nice bonus, but compared to an extra 10 RP (which equals 1-1.25 extra death coils each 20 second) i dont think it holds up, and methods sheets seem to confirm that.
I said their is probably a skill difference. I seriously doubt there is enough lag difference to account for the number differences I've seen. I'm also the least geared of the 3. I'm missing betrayer, Malygos quest neck and a few other slots. I also said I use unholy blight alot less, not completely avoid it. Its very useful on the fights you mentioned but not so much when you're running around alot like Mimiron, Vezax, and a few others.
As far as the T8 bonus math doesn't account for the new stats from Ulduar gear. Each of the 25man t8 peices have easily 20 more STR on every peice. There are necks with str now and I'm thinking Scourge strike damage may take precident over having an extra 5-8 death coils. No math behind it, just a feeling. I'm keeping my T7 4 set till I can see the difference as it will be a while before any of us have a T8 4 set but we shall see.
Per rotation, you are not getting more RP with improved unholy presense than with blood. Improved unholy presense allows you to fit in 1.11 times the rotations over time. Blood gets all damage increased by 15%. The 15% damage and 15% haste on autoattacks is a wash. So which would you rather have 15% damage or 11% more rotations? The only other gain I can see from unholy presense is the ability to use more one-off abilities since the GCD reduction is relatively much larger than the rune cooldown reduction. Maybe this lets you get in a horn of winter every 20 seconds that you wouldn't otherwise. That's a death coil every 80 seconds.
What's the point unless you skill Improved Icy Talons? Icy Talons on itself only gives 20% more personal whitedamage, basically equivalent to Necrosis but dependent on Frost Fever.
Well actually i figured that 20% haste would scale beter with procs (like BCB), and it also transfers to pets.
If you do 20% white dps and your pet does about 8-10% white dps, that makes IT already 50% better than necrosis point for point.
I'm reconsidering what i said though. Im gonna put some more time into testing IUP for myself over multiple runs and see if i keep my points in it.
Of course you can manage without it, everyone else can. However with it YOU DO MORE DPS because you get back on the boss a lot sooner. It's always been that way, movement boot enchants pre Wrath were always favored.
Very true, but the question is not whether or not you do more dps if you have more speed, that's pretty much a given. The question is whether the dps you gain is significant enough ?
And that question is hard, if not near impossible to answer well.
I'm just saying that there are 2 aspects to the movement speed:
1) Survival
2) DPS
1) From a survival point of view, i found that up to and including the general in Ulduar, movement CAN help you. But is not required. There are a few situations where i think having it would help out a bit. But we're talking about 1, maybe 2 fights in the instance and only for a single boss ability.
2) DPS
This is a lot harder to calculate, however you have to consider that increasing movement speed (as shown a few posts back), does not have a huge effect in a most cases. I found most of the movement to involve either movement in stages, or continuous movement.
Most of the staged movement involves 3 stages:
a) Running away
b) Waiting
c) Running back in
When running away often you have to beeline for it, so you turn around and run. At this time, as long as you survive it hardly matters if you run slow or fast because you'll be waiting for a while after that anyway. You could gain benefit, if you are able to dps in the waiting time, but usually that means icy touch / blood boil / death coil dps, which means the gain from movement speed is also reduced. (You get more time to do dps, but the actual dps is relative low, so the gain isn't that much)
On the waiting, speed helps nothing.
On the running back it depends on the situation. More speed means you can get back faster, meaning you can start dps sooner. This is a big gain, but depends a bit on 2 factors. The distance (if you run short ammounts you dont gain that much ground on someone without speed boost), and whether or not you can start dps from range. (If i run in and can put up an icy touch I lessen the penalty i get from not having the speed.
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As for the TBC boot enchant, I don't think you can compare it that way.
The TBC boot enchant might not be chosen because it was GOOD, but because there wasn't anything BETTER. (Not saying it sucked, but the main reason was probably this)
Not taking the speed meant you could get another 6 agility (12 agility VS 6 agility + minor speed), which wasn't anything worth writing home about. I wouldn't be surprised that if the 32 AP boot enchant had been around, most people had taken that instead.
We are however talking about 2 talent points here, that could go into Necrosis or another dps talent.
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I personally am still very much doubting. I loved Unholy Aura back pre-3.1, and personally i'd still like to have the movement increase. However I didn't quite expect to notice such a small difference now that I played without the talent, which made me doubt a little.
Necrosis is lackluster from what it was, but we have to stay realistic.
With 20% white damage, it is still a talent that gives 4% dps for 5 talent points, or 0.8% dps per point, that is quite substantial and comes close to a talent like desecration which we have all embraced.
Last edited by Foxx2405 : 04/19/09 at 8:50 PM.
Reason: Edited for clarity
I personally am still very much doubting. I loved Unholy Aura back pre-3.1, and personally i'd still like to have the movement increase. However I didn't quite expect to notice such a small difference now that I played without the talent, which made me doubt a little.
Necrosis is lackluster from what it was, but we have to stay realistic.
With 20% white damage, it is still a talent that gives 4% dps for 5 talent points, or 0.8% dps per point, that is quite substantial and comes close to a talent like desecration which we have all embraced.
Let's just say that for Mimiron and Yogg'Saron you do want the extra movement speed.
Especialy YS p2, Mimiron's buff does some funky things with your movement.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Ok assume you average about the same as myself 33% white dmg 56% yellow and 10% pet
Pet and white get UP 15% haste, So that's a boost to 49.45% (not factoring glancing which would reduce it slighly)
And yellow gets 11.11% increase to 62.22%.
Total for UP = 100% dmg to 111.67%
Now BP increases 90% of our dmg by 15%
Total for BP = 100% dmg to 113.5%
Seeing as we have IUP ether way the movement doesn't matter.
UP numbers would be very slightly higher if you factor in necrosis/bcb. But wouldn't make up for 2% increase in dps.
Now i'm curious why people are running specs with Icy Talons? Last i checked it did NOT stack with windfury/IIT seems pointless unless you run w/o a buffer in which case you should probably respec and be the raid buffer yourself for overall raid dmg.
this new pet talent we get, ghoul frenzy, is it worth keeping it up 100% of the time? even though it uses a unholy rune, prob from a SS in the rotation? any thoughts
this new pet talent we get, ghoul frenzy, is it worth keeping it up 100% of the time? even though it uses a unholy rune, prob from a SS in the rotation? any thoughts
Its generally only worth using if your ghoul would die.
Figure on average ghoul does 10% of your dmg. Increasing its haste by 25% means loosing 1/2 SS per rotation.
What i recommend is making a GF/BT macro basically giving GF a 50% up time averaging 12.5% haste for your ghoul. Its pretty much the only feasible way to actually use GF.
I know you posted this back on page 7 Tenaka and I know Nobles is still #1 but perhaps #2 needs a rethink with Patch 3.1 as it looks as though [Darkmoon Card: Death] has received quite a buff to now make the proc around the level of Bandit's and with it being shadow damage wouldn't the 0/10/61 spec actually end up doing more damage with this now than Bandit's?
I know you posted this back on page 7 Tenaka and I know Nobles is still #1 but perhaps #2 needs a rethink with Patch 3.1 as it looks as though [Darkmoon Card: Death] has received quite a buff to now make the proc around the level of Bandit's and with it being shadow damage wouldn't the 0/10/61 spec actually end up doing more damage with this now than Bandit's?
1. 190 AP is better than 85 crit
2. Only if the proc was using our talents, which add a very strong amount of +shadow. However, Bandit's already benefits from Ebon Plague anyways.
I am raiding as 10/61, we just got up to Auryia, and so far I have only made two major changes to what is posted here regularly.
1. The first has to do with Deathcoil. I use it far far more often now as 10/61, it hits extremely hard and crits in the 7 to 7.5 k range, which when combined with the intense amount of melee movement, has me using it basically all the time over UB. And frankly I am not losing much dps at all, if anything, Crit RNG gains me a fair chunk of DPS here.
2. I use one free Ghoul Frenzy a minute, macroed. Not two. Losing a 12 k SS is simply not worth it, Scourge Strike absolutely dominates my damage output, and weaving DCs with SS creates a far smoother priority system, one that I dislike messing up with a GF.
There are not many metric fights in Ulduar, but XT-2000 saw me around 6.6k DPS: . Please remember that the Heart takes additional damage, so this is not like patchwerk parses.
I tried searching for the answer, but couldn't find why desecration is taken over necrosis in the cookie cutter builds. I find that necrosis is at least 5% of my damage done which would make it over 1% dps increase per point. That makes it better doesn't it? Or are my results not typical? The way I see it, if melee white damage is at least 25% of your total damage, then necrosis is better than desecration.
I tried searching for the answer, but couldn't find why desecration is taken over necrosis in the cookie cutter builds. I find that necrosis is at least 5% of my damage done which would make it over 1% dps increase per point. That makes it better doesn't it? Or are my results not typical? The way I see it, if melee white damage is at least 25% of your total damage, then necrosis is better than desecration.
Desecration increases your white damage by an amount almost identical to necrosis, given that you proc it with most of your attacks, uptime is not really an issue any more. Moreover, Desecration adsd to all of the rest of your damage too, including diseases applied while standing in it. Necrosis is still worth taking though, I personally have 4 points in it, and it accounts for a basic 4.3% of my dps, so it is still very solid.
1. 190 AP is better than 85 crit
2. Only if the proc was using our talents, which add a very strong amount of +shadow. However, Bandit's already benefits from Ebon Plague anyways.
So wouldn't both of the trinkets benefit from Ebon Plague and if they both benefit from that then shouldn't DMC: Death also benefit from Black Ice which increases Frost/Shadow damage dealt by 10% which is in the 10/61 build where as Bandit's doesn't?
Also, the proc damage is a very close top end as:
Bandit's with 1504 - 2256
Death with 1750 - 2250
It just seemed like using it last night 4k plus procs were not uncommon but then I have never had a Bandit's so I don't know how high that can go.
Anyway if Bandit's is still top of the heap as you say then I guess I can just pray for it to drop on my DK.
So wouldn't both of the trinkets benefit from Ebon Plague and if they both benefit from that then shouldn't DMC: Death also benefit from Black Ice which increases Frost/Shadow damage dealt by 10% which is in the 10/61 build where as Bandit's doesn't?
Also, the proc damage is a very close top end as:
Bandit's with 1504 - 2256
Death with 1750 - 2250
It just seemed like using it last night 4k plus procs were not uncommon but then I have never had a Bandit's so I don't know how high that can go.
Anyway if Bandit's is still top of the heap as you say then I guess I can just pray for it to drop on my DK.
Well here's what it comes down to.
Bandit 41.77^ dps +180 ap (not factoring in any buffs)
Death 48.88^ + 85 cr (only factoring in black ice)
They both have the same 45icd
Death's proc will actually scale better. Figure raid buffed death proc = 75 dps, with bandit sitting @ about 65 dps.
Now figure crit is worth roughly 1.1 ap, at least that was the stat weight for 17/0/54.
Desecration increases your white damage by an amount almost identical to necrosis, given that you proc it with most of your attacks, uptime is not really an issue any more. Moreover, Desecration adsd to all of the rest of your damage too, including diseases applied while standing in it. Necrosis is still worth taking though, I personally have 4 points in it, and it accounts for a basic 4.3% of my dps, so it is still very solid.
With desecration, you're getting exactly 1% damage increase per point. Your example proves my point that necrosis is better. With 4 points, it accounts for more than 4% of your damage. It's not 4.3% of your white dps, it's 4.3% of your TOTAL dps.
Both are good talents, but 4 points in desecration would have given you only 4% of your damage.
About the trinket discussion, what are people's thought's on [Wrathstone], compared to [Bandit's Insignia]? Obviously, 190 AP > 108 crit, but what about the on-use? It seems using it along with greatness/weapon proc for a powered up gargoyle is a viable alternative to bandit's.
04/19/09, 9:06 AM
