Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 11

Sekke · 04/20/09, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Kalakaua

I tried searching for the answer, but couldn't find why desecration is taken over necrosis in the cookie cutter builds. I find that necrosis is at least 5% of my damage done which would make it over 1% dps increase per point. That makes it better doesn't it? Or are my results not typical? The way I see it, if melee white damage is at least 25% of your total damage, then necrosis is better than desecration.

I don't know how you're getting Necrosis as 5% of your damage.

We cleared Auriayayayayaya through Freya (didn't do Mimiron) and then did Ignis. Necrosis was, overall, 2% of my damage. On Ignis, which is a REALLY long fight, it was only 2.5% of my overall damage. Now, I only have 3 points in Necrosis, but I don't see 2 more points making up for all of that.

EDIT: I've been 0/10/61 since the patch, and here are my impressions. I like IUP. It's definitely noticeable on a few fights, noticeable enough that I want to keep it in my spec. With 4P T7 and 130 RP it's almost impossible to run out of RP, even with Gargoyle up. We have a Blood DK and a 12/054 Unholy DK and we're all performing pretty similarly across a variety of fights.

Ghoul survivability seems as strong as ever. Typically, if something is going to kill my Ghoul it will happen before I can use GF. Thanks to the mount bug I can usually get another Ghoul right away. Overall I like this new spec, and will probably stick with it for a while.

Foxx2405 · 04/20/09, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Khraeme

this new pet talent we get, ghoul frenzy, is it worth keeping it up 100% of the time? even though it uses a unholy rune, prob from a SS in the rotation? any thoughts

I use it only in 3 situations:

1. At the start of a fight. Its REALLY good here, I made a macro that binds pet attack with ghoul frenzy, and while the tank runs in, i press the button and my ghoul leaps in.
I lose an unholy rune but if i do my rotation like this: PS>IT>BS>BS>SS
The unholy rune usually (if you time it well) is up again for the last SS.

2. If your ghoul is dying, some damage is hard to prevent and i feel like some damage, especially on mimiron should ignore pets becuase it makes controlling them insane (Even though i love the challenge of good pet control, it makes me a higher liability in dangerous situations). However if your ghoul is dying using a ghoul frenzy to make him survive probably beats a single SS

3. Combined with blood tap. I would personally prioritize a bone shield with blood tap. But since thats only 2 minutes, and only in fights where you take targeted damage (which a lot of bosses don't have), you can use BT+GF quite often.

-----POSSIBLE SPOILER UP AHEAD-----

There is a 4th situation and it's quite encounter specific for Mimiron 10-man. But possibly has similar situations on other bosses.

In phase 3 (flying head phase), I am the bomb soaker for my guild. I just activate frost presence (mostly for threat those bombs are a pain in the ass), and soak bombs while using cooldowns like AMS / IBF.
I found however since the bombs only drop every ~10 seconds, that in the meanwhile i can do 2 things:
1. I apply a icy touch on assault bots, because i'm the only one who provides the +13% magic damage debuff.
2. I send my ghoul in with ghoul frenzy to help out dps.

So in such weird situations ghoul frenzy is nice as well. With raid buffs it did a good 800 dps with GF up.

Narbenklinge · 04/20/09, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by level12wizard

This simply isn't true. I have a WWS report of several Ulduar boss attempts done at 268 hit (a little over 8% hit), and the only actual misses that occur are from spells. If you take the time to pull open the extra columns and check number of misses/dodges/parries/etc, you will only see parries and 'others' (evades and whatnot) reported for melee attacks. This is a pretty large sample size, and there's no reason for Blizzard to suddenly change this.

Wow Web Stats

Hi! First time i´m posting here - hopefully my english isn´t too bad.

I´m a little bit confused about the Hitcap since yesterday.

This is our WWS - im running with 0/10/61 spec:
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

Wow Web Stats (hm.. u have to click on Columns and choose Misses / Parrys / Dodges)

The WWS says, I had 5 misses on SS (in german: Geißelstoß) but it also says, I had 3 Parrys and 2 Dodges. I have 263 Hitrating which is 8,02%.
Is it a WWS bug? (Shows 5 misses,which aren´t really misses - 3parrys + 2dodges = 5misses??)

But IF it is a WWS Bug - look at this WWS before Patch 3.1

Wow Web Stats (hm.. u have to click on Columns and choose Misses / Parrys / Dodges)

My OB (in german: Auslöschen) shows with the same 263 Hitrating 0 Misses, 18 Parrys and 3 Dodges...

Pls help - i´m confused!

Another Question:

I´m actually wearing Mirror of Truth (no dropluck on Saph...) would DMC: Death be an upgrade?? Personally I would say: YES - is this correct??

david0925 · 04/20/09, 5:41 AM

Originally Posted by Narbenklinge

Hi! First time i´m posting here - hopefully my english isn´t too bad.

I´m a little bit confused about the Hitcap since yesterday.

This is our WWS - im running with 0/10/61 spec:
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

Wow Web Stats (hm.. u have to click on Columns and choose Misses / Parrys / Dodges)

The WWS says, I had 5 misses on SS (in german: Geißelstoß) but it also says, I had 3 Parrys and 2 Dodges. I have 263 Hitrating which is 8,02%.
Is it a WWS bug? (Shows 5 misses,which aren´t really misses - 3parrys + 2dodges = 5misses??)

But IF it is a WWS Bug - look at this WWS before Patch 3.1

Wow Web Stats (hm.. u have to click on Columns and choose Misses / Parrys / Dodges)

My OB (in german: Auslöschen) shows with the same 263 Hitrating 0 Misses, 18 Parrys and 3 Dodges...

Pls help - i´m confused!

Another Question:

I´m actually wearing Mirror of Truth (no dropluck on Saph...) would DMC: Death be an upgrade?? Personally I would say: YES - is this correct??

Parry and Dodge are mitigated by Expertise and not Hit rating. Your hit is fine and will mitigate all actual misses.

Narbenklinge · 04/20/09, 5:47 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

Parry and Dodge are mitigated by Expertise and not Hit rating. Your hit is fine and will mitigate all actual misses.

Yeah, u are right - i know Parry + Dodge are mitigated by expertise - but in the wws from yesterday i have 5 Misses with my 8,02% Hit!

Is this a displaybug on WWS?

Afabar · 04/20/09, 5:54 AM

All miss = sum of "pure" Miss, Dodge, Parry, Resist and Block.

level12wizard · 04/20/09, 6:05 AM

You are reading WWS incorrectly. I guess it's a pretty easy mistake to make. 3 parries + 2 dodges + 0 misses = 5 total "misses". See picture.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2054jt3.jpg

As far as DMC: Death goes, the proc hits harder with Black Ice and occurs more often (higher proc chance and procs off everything exactly like DMC: Greatness), but the passive is also considerably worse than Bandit's. On the plus side it shouldn't be very expensive, at least not until people start realizing it was buffed.

Narbenklinge · 04/20/09, 6:32 AM

Yeah thanks guys! you´re right! I didn´t see the "miss"!

To DMC: Death against Mirror of Truth:

My Mirror of Truth proccs in a 4h57min Raid ~70 times
My Greathness proccs in the same Raidtime ~139 times
So IF DMC: Death proccs like Greatness it proccs ~139 times

Math: (without talents / buffs / debuffs):

139 * 2000 (avg DMC: Death) = 278.000 dmg

I think with buffs / debuffs & Co. the dmg increased by ~20% => 278.000/100*120 = 333.600 dmg

4h57min raid => 17820 seconds

333.600dmg / 17820sec = 18,72 dps

Hopefully my math isn´t so bad... my problem is, i don´t know how much "dps" Mirror of Truth gives..

/edit: The critrating of both Trinkets is pretty the same...

Nightro · 04/20/09, 6:51 AM

So Narbenklinge, how does it stack up? The short answer. :-)

I have Mirror of Truth and Five Furies. Plus I also have the Undeath deck.

So do I create the Death card or keep the Mirror?

Thanks

Chirijaden · 04/20/09, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bloodscape

I see quite a bit of comparison on BP vs UP.

Ok assume you average about the same as myself 33% white dmg 56% yellow and 10% pet

Pet and white get UP 15% haste, So that's a boost to 49.45% (not factoring glancing which would reduce it slighly)

And yellow gets 11.11% increase to 62.22%.

Total for UP = 100% dmg to 111.67%

Now BP increases 90% of our dmg by 15%

Total for BP = 100% dmg to 113.5%

Seeing as we have IUP ether way the movement doesn't matter.

UP numbers would be very slightly higher if you factor in necrosis/bcb. But wouldn't make up for 2% increase in dps.

Now i'm curious why people are running specs with Icy Talons? Last i checked it did NOT stack with windfury/IIT seems pointless unless you run w/o a buffer in which case you should probably respec and be the raid buffer yourself for overall raid dmg.

Thank you very much for the math. Also, you are correct, there is no point in running with icy talons unless you don't have WF.

Edit: Also it is important to note that as DKs we generally have our diseases spread to multiple things on various ulduar bosses. This is where BP unequivocally outshines UP.

Kobal · 04/20/09, 9:18 AM

Disclaimer: This is just a weird idea. Unfortunately my Death Knight is only a twink and since I have yet to see any decent 2H weapon drop I am stuck in DW. I also do not yet have 4T7. Which altogether means I have no conclusive way to test myself what I am going to suggest. However I find the idea intriguing enough that I think it should be shared. Maybe one of you agrees with my sentiment and is willing to perform a practice test or at least modify one of the existing simulations. If not, just ignore this post.

The main suggestion is: Why don't we try to use Obliterate instead of Scourge Strike in a 2H-Unholy build?

Yes, at first it sounds really weird. But over in the DW-Unholy thread (readable even on the first post) an observation was made that starting at about 14% armour penetration Obliterate will start to outscale Scourge Strike. This was for DW-Builds, but why shouldn't a similar treshhold also be valid for 2H-builds? In particular since the "new" 0/10/61 specc is not too far away from the DW speccs in said thread.

The core specc would be something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9757 with a few points left to spend according to individual taste.

The rotation would be IT/PS BS, BS, OB, Dump, OB, OB, OB, Dump.

Yes, Obliterate will miss out on the benefit of some of the nice SS-enhancing talents in the Unholy tree, but it has a higher base damage to start with. Plus it generates an additional 5 rune power per hit.

Narbenklinge · 04/20/09, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Nightro

So Narbenklinge, how does it stack up? The short answer. :-)

I have Mirror of Truth and Five Furies. Plus I also have the Undeath deck.

So do I create the Death card or keep the Mirror?

Thanks

Hmm... sorry i really don´t know which trinket is better... I found this discussion
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Darkmoon: Death vs Mirror if Truth

I think i´ll buy a Undeath Carddeck (if it´s cheap enough) an test it out...

Bloodscape · 04/20/09, 9:54 AM

Heh i was actually thinking about an OB Unholy spec not less than 10 mins ago. Honestly i'm thinking it probably wont work. But lets check.

Say 2k average white swing(a) and 25% base crit.

SS = (a.45+546) *1.33*1.2*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05*1.02*(critB*crit%) *1.13 =5.5k
OB = (a1+803.2) *1.375*1.15*1.1*1.02*(critB*crit%) =6868 *.8(20% armor) = 5.5k

For an OB spec i'm thinking 3/13/55 or mabe 3/17/51 vs the normal 0/10/61

A rotation like

IT-PS-BS-BS-OB-UB-DC
OB-OB-OB-DC-DC-DC-DC

Could be interesting.

Souli · 04/20/09, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Malcophant

About the trinket discussion, what are people's thought's on [Wrathstone], compared to [Bandit's Insignia]? Obviously, 190 AP > 108 crit, but what about the on-use? It seems using it along with greatness/weapon proc for a powered up gargoyle is a viable alternative to bandit's.

I would also like to know if Wrathstone is worth taking or not.

Regarding IUP: What about if you just put 1 point into it so it's like a boot enchant and use the second for some kinda dps talent? Atm I run 10/61 with 1 point in IUP and maxed out Necrosis (can't get used to ghoul frenzy) and I really like it.

Regarding gear choices: atm it is best to use 4pT7 together with Plated Leggings of Ruination but since I don't see my guild killing Flame Leviathan on hard mode that soon I wanted to know what piece is worth using together with T7? I've put a lootrank together with the values from the first page and it seems that T8 is best in every slot except for legs. So what should I aim for? chest (expertise), gloves (hit), or something else?

EvilNuff · 04/20/09, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by AmeroGER

...And I would take Kologarn off the list. I never ever had a lazer pointing at me and neither had any other melee. As long as you stay in hitrange of his main body he seems to ignore you....

I would disagree here, at least in 10 man (I have not fought him in 25 yet). I position myself between the right arm and body so i can swap targets when the arm dies without moving and have been targetted by lazers.

Lokordd · 04/20/09, 12:18 PM

Cloudgatherer - Put whichever ability you want there and it will turn on (! keeps it from turning off) Rune Strike when up. Be careful not to overuse this as you can drain your runic power but as DPS that should be less of an issue than tanking

#showtooltip
/cast someAbility
/cast !Rune Strike

Sorry for the dumb question, but anyone else not able to get this to work? Not sure why I can not get it to auto activate when it's up.

radon · 04/20/09, 1:38 PM

Hi guys, today i had the chance to test and i'm having good results with 7/10/54 spec i mentioned. Altough we can only get xt2 to 5%-10%ish hp yet, until the enrage im ending up between 7k-7600 dps on him (if i dont get too many debuffs) with army at pull on all tries.
Self buffed ebon hold boss dummy results are around 3850 over 10 minutes. I find new necrosis too weak (racing with my pyro rocket...) and not missing it at all. Having %4 harder hitting strikes (and white damage) in a squeezed time on the heart feels better than slowpoe necrosis.
(Dps shows few hundreds lower due to disease ticks after death. )

blair · 04/20/09, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by radon

Hi guys, today i had the chance to test and i'm having good results with 7/10/54 spec i mentioned. Altough we can only get xt2 to 5%-10%ish hp yet, until the enrage im ending up between 7k-7600 dps on him (if i dont get too many debuffs) with army at pull on all tries.
Self buffed ebon hold boss dummy results are around 3850 over 10 minutes. I find new necrosis too weak (racing with my pyro rocket...) and not missing it at all. Having %4 harder hitting strikes (and white damage) in a squeezed time on the heart feels better than slowpoe necrosis.
(Dps shows few hundreds lower due to disease ticks after death. )

Wouldn't be more efficient to pop army right before a heart phase? I've been doing that and it seems like the slight loss of dps to stop and pop it is more than made up by the DPS increase the army receives during heart phase.

Alita · 04/20/09, 2:10 PM

i have found there is a couple second time gap between when you can no longer attack XT, and when you can target the heart. I start casting a few seconds early, as i would rather lose a few seconds on XT than on the heart.

Lollersk8er · 04/20/09, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by radon

Hi guys, today i had the chance to test and i'm having good results with 7/10/54 spec i mentioned. Altough we can only get xt2 to 5%-10%ish hp yet, until the enrage im ending up between 7k-7600 dps on him (if i dont get too many debuffs) with army at pull on all tries.
Self buffed ebon hold boss dummy results are around 3850 over 10 minutes. I find new necrosis too weak (racing with my pyro rocket...) and not missing it at all. Having %4 harder hitting strikes (and white damage) in a squeezed time on the heart feels better than slowpoe necrosis.
(Dps shows few hundreds lower due to disease ticks after death. )
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4049/7500.jpg

This is quite impressive, never seen such high dps on XT-002. Highest for Blood I saw was 7k. A log of any kind would be helpful, I don't know how much the army buffs your dps.

Bsiddiq · 04/20/09, 2:48 PM

I remember there being some discussion about how AotD mimics your permanent pet ghoul- i.e., you tell your ghoul to leap/attack/claw and AotD does as well. I wonder if it is possible for AotD to benefit from Ghoul Frenzy the way your permanent pet does (i.e. if army is out, when you cast GF).

Also, I'd be a little wary of popping AotD on XT....in case they decide to taunt off your OT...or kill boom bots next to melee.

Nerub · 04/20/09, 2:55 PM

Since the heart takes 100% more damage the XT-002 fight is a pretty bad benchmark. The only boss in Ulduar that comes close to Patchwerk in terms of benchmarking is Ignis.

Schadenfrued · 04/20/09, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nerub

Since the heart takes 100% more damage the XT-002 fight is a pretty bad benchmark. The only boss in Ulduar that comes close to Patchwerk in terms of benchmarking is Ignis.

It is useful against other XT parses though. The other dps DK and I have been in the low to mid 5k range beforeon XT, but seeing this is pretty impressive and suggests it may be higher overall since the 7 points in blood don't really give you another cd you can use during heart to inflate your numbers. I don't think the poster is saying 'hey, my spec does 7k on all fights'.

Gragge · 04/20/09, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mongoe

It is useful against other XT parses though. The other dps DK and I have been in the low to mid 5k range beforeon XT, but seeing this is pretty impressive and suggests it may be higher overall since the 7 points in blood don't really give you another cd you can use during heart to inflate your numbers. I don't think the poster is saying 'hey, my spec does 7k on all fights'.

In comparison to Radon's results on XT , this is the log from our first kill using, with me using 12/0/59

and btw, as stated above, a log from those attempts would be nice Radon.

Nynx · 04/20/09, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gragge

In comparison to Radon's results on XT , this is the log from our first kill using, with me using 12/0/59

and btw, as stated above, a log from those attempts would be nice Radon.

Don't have a parse of any kind, but yeah, got same results as Gragge with the 12/0/59 on XT, and no AoTD used.