Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 12

Jakks · 04/20/09, 5:20 PM

I was wondering if anyone has done the numbers for armor pen for unholy.
I know it's weighted very high for blood dks I'm assuming since a lot of our dmg is spell based its not as good.

Nerub · 04/20/09, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jakks

I was wondering if anyone has done the numbers for armor pen for unholy.
I know it's weighted very high for blood dks I'm assuming since a lot of our dmg is spell based its not as good.

First page, first post.

Vinclass · 04/20/09, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mongoe

It is useful against other XT parses though. The other dps DK and I have been in the low to mid 5k range beforeon XT, but seeing this is pretty impressive and suggests it may be higher overall since the 7 points in blood don't really give you another cd you can use during heart to inflate your numbers. I don't think the poster is saying 'hey, my spec does 7k on all fights'.

Here is my recent kill of XT. I'm Hagerdk. You can armory if you'd like, but my gear for the most part is average at best and I busted out 5.6 without AotD. I've only been playing this DK for 2 weeks, so I made some huge errors (see Gargoyle) trying to line things up for sweet spots on the heart. If I can hit 5.6 with mistimed CDs and some botched rotation issues here and there, plus cleaning up on a few adds, I'm not at all surprised people are hitting 7k.

Also, of note, I'm using a 0/10/61 spec in that parse.

Infiniteone · 04/20/09, 7:37 PM

I'm a little confused on gargoyle, I've tried searching the forums for an answer but most of what I have found is outdated, forgive me If i missed the discussion on 3.1 gargoyle.

In order to get max time on gargoyle, do I only need to have 90 rp when I activate him? I've used him at various rp's before, like 50-80rp, he goes up for 10 seconds before he shows up on my classtimer, then when he shows up on classtimer, he lasts the same amount of time regardless of how much rp I maintain, which I believe was 30 seconds everytime, I think I even hit 0 rp and he was still out for the set amount of time. So is it just a pop it and forget about it type spell now or what?

Corkscrew · 04/20/09, 7:59 PM

Re: Gargoyle, I did some dummy tests tonight.

1. Getting exactly 50 RP, summoning, and standing there doing nothing, he lasted 10 seconds, the amount of time it takes before he actually starts stealing your Runic Power to remain out. That, at least, seems to be working as intended.
2. Getting 130 RP, summoning, and standing there doing nothing, he lasted 30 seconds (10 seconds less than the tooltip would indicate). He consumed the correct amount of RP at a rate of 6 per 2 seconds, so at the end I was sitting at 20 RP (50 initial cast + 60 over 30 sc).
3. Getting 130 RP, summoning, and doing my normal rotation/RP usage, he still lasted only 30 seconds (again, 10 less than the tooltip).

I keep up with this thread on a pretty regular basis, but it's possible that I missed discussion of this, so... why isn't Gargoyle lasting 40 seconds? It was 30s when it was a 21-point talent, then I remember it getting upped to 1 minute on the PTR when it moved down to its current 51 point position, and then dropped to 40s. Still only lasting 30s though.

Otherwise, RP consumption and the initial "free" 10 seconds seem to be working properly.

vekkth · 04/20/09, 8:12 PM

hey, first post here

some thoughts about BP vs UP in ulduar. from our sunday 25 man Yogg kill, i am absolutely sure that overall IUP is godly in Ulduar and thus worth 2 points.
Yogg is all mobility fight except 3rd phase, basically you cant keep solid rotation anywhere outside of 15-17 seconds during brain phase. 3rd phase is a zerg fest, adds dying too fast for a stable rotation and you have to spam pestilence too much to spread.

some fights are pretty tank and spank, but most of them are all about mobility. i cant actually provide maths to support this, but i just cant imagine myself without IUP in Ulduar now.

JALbert · 04/20/09, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Corkscrew

Re: Gargoyle, I did some dummy tests tonight.

1. Getting exactly 50 RP, summoning, and standing there doing nothing, he lasted 10 seconds, the amount of time it takes before he actually starts stealing your Runic Power to remain out. That, at least, seems to be working as intended.
2. Getting 130 RP, summoning, and standing there doing nothing, he lasted 30 seconds (10 seconds less than the tooltip would indicate). He consumed the correct amount of RP at a rate of 6 per 2 seconds, so at the end I was sitting at 20 RP (50 initial cast + 60 over 30 sc).
3. Getting 130 RP, summoning, and doing my normal rotation/RP usage, he still lasted only 30 seconds (again, 10 less than the tooltip).

I keep up with this thread on a pretty regular basis, but it's possible that I missed discussion of this, so... why isn't Gargoyle lasting 40 seconds? It was 30s when it was a 21-point talent, then I remember it getting upped to 1 minute on the PTR when it moved down to its current 51 point position, and then dropped to 40s. Still only lasting 30s though.

Otherwise, RP consumption and the initial "free" 10 seconds seem to be working properly.

There was a post by Ghostcrawler stating that the tooltip is incorrect and that gargoyle is intended to be shorter than 40 seconds, and it is working as intended.

AmeroGER · 04/20/09, 8:44 PM

Alright, Yogg-Saron appears to give players a movement increasing buff that doesn't stack with IUP. That officially kills the talent to me until something more challenging comes up (like the hardmode, that doesn't provide the buff).

Hidden · 04/20/09, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by AmeroGER

Alright, Yogg-Saron appears to give players a movement increasing buff that doesn't stack with IUP. That officially kills the talent to me until something more challenging comes up (like the hardmode, that doesn't provide the buff).

I killed Yogg-Saron today and I definitely noticed a movement speed difference between fighting in Blood Presence and Unholy Presence.

vekkth · 04/20/09, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hidden

I killed Yogg-Saron today and I definitely noticed a movement speed difference between fighting in Blood Presence and Unholy Presence.

i can definitely second this. i will test again next reset, but i am sure that since i switched to unholy build from several blood tries, i was moving faster.

Nrv · 04/20/09, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Souli

I wanted to know what piece is worth using together with T7? I've put a lootrank together with the values from the first page and it seems that T8 is best in every slot except for legs. So what should I aim for? chest (expertise), gloves (hit), or something else?

Im curious about this as well. I would really like to know how much it's really worth getting t8. Right now I have the gloves and the shoulders but I'm unsure if I should even break my t7 4 piece at the moment. I would like to be able to wear the t8 I have but I really dont know if its the best idea right now. The stats on the items seem to be a sure upgrade, but the set bonuses(esp the 4 piece) don't really seem to be as good at all. Thoughts?

Thagrandcow · 04/21/09, 1:23 AM

Originally Posted by radon

Hi guys, today i had the chance to test and i'm having good results with 7/10/54 spec i mentioned. Altough we can only get xt2 to 5%-10%ish hp yet, until the enrage im ending up between 7k-7600 dps on him (if i dont get too many debuffs) with army at pull on all tries.
Self buffed ebon hold boss dummy results are around 3850 over 10 minutes. I find new necrosis too weak (racing with my pyro rocket...) and not missing it at all. Having %4 harder hitting strikes (and white damage) in a squeezed time on the heart feels better than slowpoe necrosis.
(Dps shows few hundreds lower due to disease ticks after death. )

What kind of rotation were you using, if you don't mind me asking? And how did you change it up during heart phases?

norg · 04/21/09, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by Nrv

Im curious about this as well. I would really like to know how much it's really worth getting t8. Right now I have the gloves and the shoulders but I'm unsure if I should even break my t7 4 piece at the moment. I would like to be able to wear the t8 I have but I really dont know if its the best idea right now. The stats on the items seem to be a sure upgrade, but the set bonuses(esp the 4 piece) don't really seem to be as good at all. Thoughts?

I believe the current consensus is 4pc T7 with [Plated Leggings of Ruination] is the best bet. As a jewelcrafter you could use a prismatic in the blue socket, a str+crit/hit orange gem in the yellow socket, and obviously a str gem in the red socket. Non-JCs should just go 3x str gems though I guess.

At this point in time though I'm not sure compiling a BiS gearset is that worthwhile when there's still plenty of loot to be discovered. One thing I have noticed though is an abundance of hit on Ulduar gear and not a lot of expertise, which probably makes [Worldcarver] more desirable than it might otherwise have been.

Kargha · 04/21/09, 6:52 AM

While this may already have been posted somewhere else, I thought I'd post it anyway.

#showtooltip Ghoul Frenzy
/cast Blood Tap
/cast Ghoul Frenzy

It actually works to do it the following way:

#showtooltip Ghoul Frenzy
/cast Blood Tap
/stopcasting
/cast Ghoul Frenzy

You'll only need to push the button once with that macro. Works on live.

Souli · 04/21/09, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by norg

I believe the current consensus is 4pc T7 with [Plated Leggings of Ruination] is the best bet. As a jewelcrafter you could use a prismatic in the blue socket, a str+crit/hit orange gem in the yellow socket, and obviously a str gem in the red socket. Non-JCs should just go 3x str gems though I guess.

the thing I wanted to know is if you don't have access to hard mode encounters (like me atm) which piece would you wear together with 4pT7. In other words with 5pT7 which one would you replace and with what item to keep the 4pT7?

Bonecaller · 04/21/09, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Nrv

Im curious about this as well. I would really like to know how much it's really worth getting t8. Right now I have the gloves and the shoulders but I'm unsure if I should even break my t7 4 piece at the moment. I would like to be able to wear the t8 I have but I really dont know if its the best idea right now. The stats on the items seem to be a sure upgrade, but the set bonuses(esp the 4 piece) don't really seem to be as good at all. Thoughts?

Its not worth at all. Thats been looked at a lot of times, just look on the first page.

T7 is even better than t8 for unholy. So no matter what, you shouldnt even roll on those items since they are a downgrade (not even a sidegrade).

The legs posted above still seem to be our best alternative. But i would fixate too much on that since we yet dont know all loots and more important you should look if you need hit or expertise. In the equip i would pick, i have a little too less expertise and even hit may be too low.

chemistry76 · 04/21/09, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Miracleknight

A simple button to press for Blood tap and Ghoul Frenzy, press it twice to use it since they both use a GCD

#showtooltip Ghoul Frenzy
/cast Blood Tap
/cast Ghoul Frenzy

I believe this should only require one key press. I use a similar one - the one listed previously in this thread that uses a stop watch - and it casts both with one key press. Blood Tap does not use a GCD as I recall.

norg · 04/21/09, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Souli

the thing I wanted to know is if you don't have access to hard mode encounters (like me atm) which piece would you wear together with 4pT7. In other words with 5pT7 which one would you replace and with what item to keep the 4pT7?

If you're talking ilevel 226 gear only then I guess [Steelbreaker's Embrace] would be a good bet along with 4pc Tier 7, particularly with the general dearth of expertise on the gear revealed thusfar.

edit: or of course [Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate], but that tier token might be better used elsewhere

marvis · 04/21/09, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by chemistry76

I believe this should only require one key press. I use a similar one - the one listed previously in this thread that uses a stop watch - and it casts both with one key press. Blood Tap does not use a GCD as I recall.

No, i have tested this macro a long time, in Naxx (pre 3.1), in Ulduar and every time i'm playing my deathknight.
And i have to press twice the macro-button to get Blood Tap with Ghoul Frenzy.

Sekke · 04/21/09, 9:58 AM

The more I see of Ulduar (on Vezax 25 now) the worse Ghoul Frenzy seems to me. Inserting it into my rotation works fine (both at every opportunity and just with Blood Tap) but it can very easily screw up a rotation, and on fights with a lot of stuff going on it's usually just a DPS loss. On the healing side of things, whenever my Ghoul's life is in danger it usually just gets one-shot. The only time it could be useful would be on Mimiron, and even then I had my Ghoul survive P1-P4 on a majority of attempts. Once I get myself out of the poorhouse that is progression raiding I'll probably just spec out of it and throw the point into Necrosis or something.

DunZi · 04/21/09, 10:05 AM

i agree
droped GF, maxed necrosis and the GF point went into 1/2 imp UP

The Ghede · 04/21/09, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by AmeroGER

Alright, Yogg-Saron appears to give players a movement increasing buff that doesn't stack with IUP. That officially kills the talent to me until something more challenging comes up (like the hardmode, that doesn't provide the buff).

You probably should think about doing hard modes (and Algalon) then. :P
I'd also guess, that you won't want to miss +15% run speed for fights such as Iron Coucil, Freya, Hodir, XT002...just to name a few...

Whlie the Specs in the initial Post might be best for very well geared death knights, I assume 17/0/54-retrospec might still have better damage output than 0/10/61 if you're not geared perfectly. For me it's what I'll take as 2nd-spec with my twinked tanking-DK.

There is one thing I don't like about the specs here: Desecration 5/5.
It's probably a 1% dmg-increase at the most. Yes, it does proc of Scourge Strikes. But no, you won't stand still in most fights, so I chose to pick 5% increased critical strike chance over Desecration.

I'm also not sold on Ghoul Frenzy and Glyph of Blood Strike & Glyph of Dark Death Vs. Glyph of the Ghoul. It'd be interesting to read something on using Bloot-Tap on Ghoul Frenzy whenever it's ready Vs. getting another PS/BS/IT every 30 seconds in terms of DPS increase, counting in, that your pet wont be hitting the boss 100% of the time due to being moved away or dead.

Cheers!

/edit:
The math on dark conviction Vs. necrosis is flawed. You can't say 40% A = modifier 2.2 and 60% B = modifier 1.0 and run the numbers, as statistics tend to be useless unless practically testet on a larger scale and why compare Dark Conviction only to Necrosis? (As for psychotherapy for example, wich I actually study.)
NeuroMedivh did it right, althought 1 set of data isn't enough for any calculations. As soon as I DPS in our twink-raid I'd provide some more numbers. Maybe more people will do so...but until that you can't 'caltulate', but just 'assume'.

Mendoza · 04/21/09, 10:55 AM

The effort of remembering to use ghoul frenzy and the chance for it to mess up rotations has led to me to drop it for a passive talent (in this case IUP). I just don't feel the theoretical dps benefit of frenzy is worth it in practice.

Originally Posted by The Ghede

There is one thing I don't like about the specs here: Desecration 5/5.
It's probably a 1% dmg-increase at most. Yes, it does proc of Scourge Strikes. But no, you won't stand still at most fights, so I chose to pick 5% increased critical strike chance over Desecration.

Regardless of how much you move, you'll be casting PS or SS at any time that you're in melee range. So the only time you won't benefit from desecration is when you're at range. I'd definitely take 5% almost all the time vs a constant 3%.

I'm also not sold on Ghoul Frenzy and Glyph of Blood Strike & Glyph of Dark Death Vs. Glyph of the Ghoul. It'd be interesting to read something on using Bloot-Tap on Ghoul Frenzy whenever it's ready Vs. getting another PS/BS/IT every 30 seconds in terms of DPS increase, counting in, that your pet wont be hitting the boss 100% of the time due to being moved away or dead.

Glyph of blood strike is awful surely? Blood strike never breaks 5% of my damage. If I was going to drop glyph of the ghoul it'd be for glyph of UB giving me an extra DC which would do more damage than 20% more BS.

The Ghede · 04/21/09, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Glyph of blood strike is awful surely? Blood strike never breaks 5% of my damage. If I was going to drop glyph of the ghoul it'd be for glyph of UB giving me an extra DC which would do more damage than 20% more BS.

Thanks, that's why I asked - I just didn't get any testing done with my DK in 3.1. :>
I'm probably thinking about Glyph of UB then.

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Regardless of how much you move, you'll be casting PS or SS at any time that you're in melee range. So the only time you won't benefit from desecration is when you're at range. I'd definitely take 5% almost all the time vs a constant 3%.

That's not true. Please envision the Rasorscale and XT002 encounters for example. Are you really standing on desecrated ground most of the time? I don't think so, at least not if you got the sheer healing output to tank Rasorscale without moving and get lucky with XT002 & don't get debuffed with any bombs, wich is quite unlikely. (Freja and Hodir would be another good example, where I'd like to have 5% crit 100% of the time more than 5% damage sometimes.)

I see where the Desecration-love comes from...but it's only good for Unholy/Frost, not so for Bloot/Unholy, where you got a better option availible. And with my not-so-perfect DK gear I'd prefer the less gear-dependet build.
(And I don't think everyone runs around in full 226ish gear with 239ish weapons already, so I posted my thoughts on a spec to use with beginning Ulduar raiding and twinks like myself.)

Cheers!

ps: I chose examples wich close to all readers here have experienced already. I know that there are more bosses in Ulduar than Rasorscale and XT002.

/edit:
Forgot to mention: If you want to go Epidemic, you'd like to take those points from Necrosis or Dark Conviction. (Pretty much unclear till now wich one is really better, but I'd take the crit.)

Bullshifter · 04/21/09, 11:21 AM

Perhaps this has already been covered, but if i'm not yet in Ulduar gearing, is the newly buffed darkmoon card death trinket a suitable replacement for my mirror of truth, if I haven't had luck with Bandit's Insignia drops? Or is the MoT still better than Death?

Again, I apologize if it was already discussed, I'm using my phone from work, and it's proving a little difficult to research the thread as fully as it should be.