• Diello

That's overstating things a lot. Even if T7 is always better than T8 we're talking about 4 pieces of armor that we won't upgrade. Annoying, but not the worst thing in the world.

 

Fugazor

Rather it means we won't scale with 4 slots of gear - rest we can still upgrade. Also 4x ilvl239 epics are upgrade from x4 T7.5 so there is upgrade in long run.

Actually to break 4x T7.5 you "just" need two ilvl239 epics - it will be sidegrade but you will get some free stamina for all those bad aoes and you will be going for ilvl239 in every slot most likely anyway so it won't be wasted like T8 which is nice for some classes.

 

Zoort

I was lucky enough to get my hands on the vengeful sigil. Im not really into theorycrafting, but since the thread doesnt seem very conclusive whether its worth to drop awareness for vengefull, i tried to do some testing.

12/0/59- Glyph of Dark Deat, maxed morbidity - 4 Part t7 - no Trinkets with Procs - no Weaponenchant - No HoW or Boneshield - no Foreign Debuffs/Buffs - all strikes done with both diseases up - close to one million damage for each sigil.

Im not including total dps since i was kinda unlucky with crits in the vengeful part.

With sigil of awareness:

79 SS:

Hit min = 2864
Hit avg = 3086
Hit max = 3249

Crit min = 6959
Crit avg = 7291
Crit max = 7714

link to recount pic

78 DC:

Hit min = 2059
Hit avg = 2060
Hit max = 2060

Crit min = 4304
Crit avg = 4304
Crit max = 4305

link to recount pic



With sigil of vengeful heart:

83 SS:

Hit min = 2392
Hit avg = 2590
Hit max = 2781

Crit min = 5837
Crit avg = 6187
Crit max = 6543

link to recount pic

80 DC:

Hit min = 2801
Hit avg = 2801
Hit max = 2802

Crit min = 5322
Crit avg = 5825
Crit max = 5855

link to recount pic

Im to lazy to do the math right now but maybe it will be of help to some of you

 

Pyhrrus

Were these tests done over the same amount of time? Were they against a dummy or on a raid? How were you buffed?

Without answers to these types of questions, your data is unfortunately somewhat useless. Additionally, it would be far easier for us to use the data if you'd placed the numbers in text rather than forcing us to do the same.

If we assume that the above questions get answered in such a way that we can use the data (I'm actually guessing not - you have different numbers of SSs and DCs each time, which is one of the primary reasons for using dps and over a long enough period of time that "unlucky with crit" won't foul up the data), then we have:

Awareness (79 SS):
SS: 378k
DC: 210k

VH (83 SS):
SS: 301k
DC: 279k

Clearly, if all other things were equal, Awareness would be winning. It's doing more damage over a shorter amount of time. But that's in your 12/0/59. DC gets a big boost from Black Ice (28k in this example, though obviously SS would be lower), and I'm not sure if you've specced into Morbidity, which would also give it a big boost.

I think we've already shown that for a 12/0/59 VH is not as good as Awareness. It only comes up again when you've specced for Black Ice. The 0/10/61 has also been shown to scale better with other gear, so it makes sense to look at VH only once you're able to get it and have already switched to 0/10/61.

 

Exasity

Hello everyone, im kinda new here, but have some question about current 3.1 changes and exactly - unholy pres. (i.e. improved unholy pres).
Honestly, i dont care about Dummy pretty much and smth like that, only thing that matter is a raid and raid bosses for me. But i did a lot of tries on Dummy in Blood pres and in Imp unholy presence. Selfbuffed, etc, gargy, ghoul - 5 min fight, all the time 1.05 mln dmg. In both presences. 3.3-3.4k DPS. Both. Okay, maybe it's not a raid.
Raid now. Simple Example. 1 wipe on XT-002 (melee DPSing boss all the time). Firts wipe @ 6.02 9enrage) in unholy presence (imp) = 7.2k dps. Second try (kill = 5.58) in BLOOD presence = 7.9k dps (Less SS crit rate, less DC crit rate, ~ 10% more white melee crit rate).
Thats why want to know...Blood or Imp unholy? :<
Imp unholy best for AOE tbh, for fast nuke fights for sure, but for long fights etc... i dont knows, cant find any calculations about Blood vs. Imp unholy :<
Looking for some help
Thanks.

 

DunZi

Did someone tested a 0/10/61 with only one point in Epidemic?
like this - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Ran some test with DKsim and it performed well, but I never played unholy with shorter disease duration in a raid.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...jerks/DunZ.png

 

Kellhus

I picked up the Vengeful Heart last night and am running the 0/10/61 spec. It was our first time doing it so I lost dps on positioning and the general newness factor.

For council of iron - (my top 2 damage dealing abilities), done in blood pres.


Name | Damage | % of total | #Hits | Avg hit | Total hit damage | #Crit | Avg crit |Total crit damage
Scourge Strike | 486684 | 24.8 % | 49 | 3665.9 | 179628 | 36 | 8529.3 | 307056
Death Coil | 437593 | 22.3 % | 43 | 4039.1 | 173683 | 31 | 8513.2 | 263910

*sorry for the bad formatting here, full logs linked below

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

What I don't understand though is that DC being a spell should be operating at a lower crit %, since my melee crit is certainly higher on the MELEE tab than my spell crit on the SPELLS tab -- but the logs show them, % wise, right on top of each other and I can't really account for that yet.

 

Thekinslayer

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...=&version=9767

This, something I came up with, because IMO ghoul frenzy is not viable, as if you don't use it correctly it can severely screw up your rotation. IUP isn't great either, at least for dps. That leaves 3 points doing nothing, but put 'em into Necrosis you get a dps jump. Any feedback, though, is more than welcome.

 

Tel

Both Ghoul Frenzy and IUP have been shown to be a DPS increase if used correctly. The fact you're struggling to do so unfortunatly doesn't make your spec better.

I would suggest just taking some time on the target dummy to practise using GF and you'll have it sorted in no time.

 

Mumra

Looking at the new stat weights for unholy, 23 haste is now a better enchant than 22 agi for our cloaks. I see a lot of DKs still with agi. Just a heads up.

 

Zoort

updated my post, i did close to one million damage to the boss dummy in ebonhold, no foreign buffs/debuffs, no How or Boneshield.

 

• Mongoe

RE: UB vs DC on a single target

The faq says:
While certainly in any multi target situation UB surges ahead, UB does not benefit from Morbidity or the new sigil from Ulduar. Once you factor in the buffs there, does that change the equation when dealing with one target. I don't think that has been fleshed out fully.

While UB may scale more powerfully than DC; does that overcome talents and the sigil?

 

Syrvantez

What you must keep in mind with UB and DC is that UB is ongoing, set-it-and-forget it dps. If you are speaking of a purely single target fight then the answer is it depends.

Take Deconstructor for example, you have quite a bit of single target dmg going on and there's no question that on the heart DC jets ahead. However, when the heart is not up, keeping in melee range for the duration of UB is very significant, and while it not only scales better, it's ongoing dps while you are using other abilities. There are also parts of the fight in which AoEing adds is a necessity.

Putting your question into a more realistic sense, you will rarely find yourself in a situation where there is one target, and one target only. For that reason UB thrives in Ulduar, and will continue to do so. The big issue is just to think on your feet.

 

Lithnor

With the change in reaping, I believe this quote is wrong, and if possible, I would like someone smarter than I am to work this out on paper for me.

First test:
Assume you are using the regular rotation
PS, IT, BS, BS, SS
SS, SS, SS

SS1, BS, BS, SS2
SS3, SS4, SS5

Glyphs: Ghoul, Scourge Strike, Dark Death

Second test:

Glyphs: Ghoul, Dark Death, Disease

Rotation:
PS, IT, BS, BS, SS1
SS2, SS3, SS4

SS1, Pest, BS, SS2
SS3, SS4, SS5



What do the pros seem to be of this rotation and glyph spec?
Your diseases are ALWAYS up with no chance of falling off, your diseases are ALWAYS on all the mobs with no chance of falling off.

I understand that I might be giving up a tick of my diseases and as well as a blood strike every other rotation, but I'm doing so with 100% disease uptime, and since I wont be needing Epidemic, with 2 more points in necrosis as well.

The only cons are the ones mentioned in the FAQ that I quoted, yet I don't think the change to reaping in 3.1 was taken into account.

In conclusion: I would like to see this worked out in numbers somewhere as it looks like on paper that you will be giving up 1 BS every full rotation and a 20% chance of keeping diseases up for a 100% chance of keeping diseases up, 8% more shadow damage on melee white swings, a full free GC, and constant diseases on every target within 15 yards with which Wandering Plague can work with(Possibly a problem on CC fights).

 

Miracleknight

Because it does 0 damage? Why waste a GCD on 0 damage when at the cost of 2 you can do damage, and refresh your diseases versus doing half that amount of damage. Essentially one glyph gives you the chance to keep DPSing, the other Glyph stops you from DPSing for a GCD, but I suppose the math wouldn't hurt.

I'll be doing an update of the main post including the newer specs (17/0/54) and some other information that's present soon, when I'm not sick and busy at work.

 

Lithnor

What 2 GCDs are you referring to? I'm not going to be using this in place of a PS and an IT, I'm using it in place of a BS, which is already in your rotation.

Essentially, it GIVES you a GCD AND ensures that you will be able to SS on EVERY possible chance.

With the current "main stream" you have a chance that by the end of your rotation, you will have to refresh your diseases, it happens to all of us, and strings of bad RNGs suck.

We all know that a single SS is more damage than a PS and an IT, so why not make it an SS every time, and all for the cost of a single disease tick + a blood strike.

 

Gumibear

The difference between PS+IT and SS is smaller than the damage lost by losing a BS to pestilence. It has been said nearly every page of this thread and through most of the old thread since the glyph was discovered.

 

Lithnor

Yes, but I have trouble believing that its less damage than an SS every possible time, when previously there are times in which you would be FORCED into a PS and an IT, plus the extra 8% damage on necrosis, plus the Wandering plague(because there are VERY few single target fights), plus the idea that if you have a DK tank or other DKs in the raid, you are increasing their damage as well.

As a side note, I'm trying to find someone better at math than I to work it out for the betterment of the community as a whole, I would rather not start a flame war.

 

Challenge

First of all, thank you for the feedback.

I would also suggest that the SS glyph also complicates the rotation (which is inherently worse on dynamic fights). I personally derived no satisfaction from sitting there and figuratively biting my nails hoping for a SS disease refresh at the last second to get an optimal DPS boost (and felt strangely let down when it failed to do so every time).

In terms of solving for the equation, I'll use the data from my most recent (and horribly sloppy) WMO parse, using the old rotation: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish [do not use PW as an indicator, I was in tanking gear]

SS hit for an average of 3,871
PS hit for an average of 1,686
IT hit for an average of 1,315
BS hit for an average of 1,653

3871-(1686+1305)/30 = 29.3
1653/20 = 82.65

You are correct in stating that the SS glyph outperforms glyph of disease. Some factors from my very limited data set: my SS damage is almost identical to the aggregate damage of my IT+PS. I have fairly good DPS gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) so this seems a bit... puzzling. I would imagine that as my SS hits went up, the balance of the equation would shift somewhat.

There is also the case to be made for reducing the RNG dependency of the rotation, as well as a case for increased RP gain using 4t7. Whether these outweigh the difference is debatable, though the difference does seem to be fairly minor.

Any other thoughts?

 

• Mongoe

Don't mean to be glib, but your answer doesn't actually address the question. Certainly, when dealing with adds on XT or razorscale of course we use UB when available. But, for say, the last 50% of Razorscale which would you use? When you're dpsing the heart, which do you use? There are times when we single target.

The question isn't about justifying the talent point. That's a given. The question is about tactical useage.

 

Lithnor

PS + IT combo, because we are losing a possibility of that amount of damage from a BS.

Scourge strike max non critical was 3698 with a critical chance of 47.6%
Average of both critical and non critical was 5460

Plague Strike max crit was 2180 with a critical chance of 33%
Average of both critical and non critical was 1370

Icy Touch max critical was 2255 with a critical chance of 16.7%
Average of both critical and non critical was 1330

You say it has been proven that the damage loss from having to use a PS + IT is less than the damage lost by losing a BS, so...

5460 - (1370 + 1330) >= 1213
2760 >= 1213

Within this small amount of sample data we have shown that the difference between a PS + IT combination is MORE than the Blood Strike damage lost.

Ill try to run a longer test to get a more in depth amount of sample data, however here, in a quick run, it seems that the difference between a PS + IT combo and a SS is more than the BS that we lose, and would therefore make the Disease glyph a better glyph, Not even counting in the extra damage from the talent points and Wandering plague, or the RNG of your diseases falling off and having to refresh them.

Edit: Spelling.

 

Challenge

What data sample are you using?

 

Lithnor

My own from a Highlord's Nemesis Trainer dummy in Ebon hold

 

Kellhus

As your SS damage increases, so will your PS. As your ap increases so does your IT. You're not going to see a situation where just your SS damage will increase.

It seems like you just really want it to work. =p

 

Tanoooki

Im currently using a macro to activate BT together with GH, this works - i only have to press it once.

But i have [Loatheb's Shadow] which i want to use together with this macro aswell, however im having some trouble. When im not in combat and activate the macro it works. I only have to press once to activate the BT, the trinket and GF. But when im in combat i have to press it twice. Is there any solution?