Methods did a calculation of Dirge on the old thread, and it was pretty large contribution to DPS. He said that you should never be with out it.
When I have a little more time Ill dig it up for you and post it here.
Obviously, it's the same reason why 4 pc t7 is being touted as > 4 pc t8, RP generation.
Originally Posted by Methods' post in the old thread
Unholy: Assuming 0/10/61 for simplicity sake.
Dirge: Interestingly enough and perhaps fairly obvious dirge = a fair amount of DPS. It packs about 1.2% per point. That means no passing this one. Ever.
For what it's worth... I can't see any unholy build that couldn't benefit from more runic power income. Factor in the gargoyle and I can't see any unholy build excelling without it in 3.1. Unless you're gonna stay married to your t7.5 and pray the next tier is kinder to the spec. But, I'm not the best at math and usually just keep my mouth shut and read. Speaking of which...
Looking at all of the people posting 7/10/54 specs, I'm trying to figure out mathematically how much I stand to gain or lose by switching to it from 12/0/59 (0/10/61 is good, but I don't want to give up the threat reduction just yet personally). Please be warned I am not a math master. I'm going to do my best here, but I'm hoping you can tell me where I'm screwing up so it's clear to everyone what we can gain/lose by switching specs.
Here's a recent parse of Iron Council 10, which I'm using to derive the percentage contribution of each ability at my gear level. It seemed like a decent fight to use as an example. The "all bosses" part of the parse wasn't a good choice because I offtanked razorscale as frost, xt has the heart and aoe spoilers, and kologarn/auriaya have you attacking from the front.
I get few raid buffs, mainly Sunder, Battle Shout, HoW and BoK, since our 10-man is very caster-heavy.
Bladed Armor: I can't calculate this one for myself, but Methods puts 5/5 at being worth about 4% dps.
Wandering Plague: accounted for 2.2% of my damage.
Necrosis: .5% of my damage. Other estimates put this at about .7% per point, so I'll compromise and consider it .6%.
Morbidity: DC is around 13% of my damage, so each point of this is worth about 1.9% to me.
Total loss: about 8.7% dps.
We gain:
3/3 Improved IT
2/2 Runic Power Mastery
5/5 Black Ice
Improved IT: Almost negligible. Methods has it at .01% per point.
RP Mastery: Methods has this at 1% due to flexibility. With 4 piece tier 7, I definitely find myself having to dump runic power even though I have runes available because I'm about to cap.
Black Ice: Methods says 5.2% increase for 5/5. My quick and dirty math pretty much agrees, with about 59% of my damage appearing to be frost/shadow. So let's say it's about 5.6%.
Total gain: 6.6% dps.
So it looks like the estimate puts 12/0/59 ahead, and I'd imagine the gap widens in aoe situations. This is similar to Method's estimate that you lose about 3% with this spec over the other cookie-cutters.
Also, as gear improves, Blade Armor does not scale very well, meaning at some point the other spec will catch up. Really, the 7/10/54 is screwed by the fact that it has to waste 10 points on both the blood and frost tier 1 fillers. At the same time, they seem very close to each other, so as gear progresses, this spec looks like it may be somewhat viable for people who want both the threat reduction and RPM.
edit** apologies, inane response edited out.
I prefer 7/10/54 to the spec you outlined. No ghoul frenzy, no IUP, a point out of Epidemic to max morbidity. In my experience thus far losing the three seconds cost you very little as the refresh time and the rotation work out well with 1/2.
You also end up with a UB/DC runic dump followed by a DC/DC/DC runic dump every third rotation.
why am i getting higher dps when i run the sim with 17/0/54 spec compared to 12/0/59 >.< can someone tried it out and see if u get higher dps when using 17/0/54, i know most of the ppl have change to 12/0/59, 0/10/61, 7/10/54... just wanna reconfirm again or issit i run the sim wrongly T.T
I may have missed this, I know that unholy blight is worth a point, its definitely worth using with more then one target, but is it worth using on purely a single target or is it best to use all RP for DCs on a single target?
Unholy Blight was already more damage per RP than Deathcoil when it cost 60 RP (against single targets, it's obviously better on multiple targets) and since it got reduced to 40 I can only see the gap being widened even more. Even with T8 and the Sigil, UB should always be a better RP investment.
Originally Posted by Thim
When I see people say this I suspect if the best raid spec will be to pull points out of necrosis one by one and fill in subversion. The result will be specs like:
1/10/60 or 2/10/59 or 3/10/58
As DKs approach BIS they will be forced to move from left to right.
This is only assuming that tanks won't be geared at the same rate. My guild (and I assume some others) likes to gear tanks first, so they should almost always be able to keep ahead on threat-generation. Having done everything in Ulduar now (not hard mode and excluding Algalon of course) there really hasn't been an occasion where threat was a HUGE issue, and I've been 0/10/61 since the patch. Mostly the only real problem is if you like to spam DnD, but I've found using Bloodboil these days is pretty good damage. Overall I've been disappointed with add fights in Ulduar. Unholy is usually touted as the best AOE spec, but all the adds in Ulduar die so fast that we don't really have an opportunity to get maximum damage on everything.
wanted to try it yesterday at xt-002 but got one bomb after another (this boss don't likes me)
plz tell me what you think about it.
This is the exact 0/10/61 build that was linked in the OP (and several times throughout this thread), save that you've moved two points from IUP into Necrosis. You can review the debate about IUP at several points in this thread as well and decide for yourself, as that question is still somewhat up in the air.
wanted to try it yesterday at xt-002 but got one bomb after another (this boss don't likes me)
plz tell me what you think about it.
Necrosis does bring more dps than 2 handed spec but it doesn't necessarily bring more dps than 2 handed spec 9% blood strike crit, 2 rp per 5 seconds and 20 rp per killing blow on adds. Point for point 2 handed spec is better than necrosis. Where it gets tough is when you compare 7 in blood to IUP, Ghoul Frenzy, and 2 points in Necrosis.
It's likely lazyiness and shouldn't be reflected in a true theorycraft model but the threat reduction utility has a high value to me, and arguably has some dps implications for the use case where threat is an issue. If nothing else the ability to Death and Decay a tad sooner and AOE at will without disrupting the tank.
Necrosis does bring more dps than 2 handed spec but it doesn't necessarily bring more dps than 2 handed spec 9% blood strike crit, 2 rp per 5 seconds and 20 rp per killing blow on adds. Point for point 2 handed spec is better than necrosis. Where it gets tough is when you compare 7 in blood to IUP, Ghoul Frenzy, and 2 points in Necrosis.
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Originally Posted by yubble
Sounds to me like you should take 2 pts out of Bladed armor and put 2 into Necrosis.
I may have missed new info on this, but aren't you both overvaluing Necrosis? According to Method's calcs, 2-handed spec is worth .9% dps per point, and Bladed Armor is worth .8% dps (at tier 7 gear level) while Necrosis is worth only about .7% per point.
Many previous posts have also said that Epidemic is very much worth the 2 points because you can get in more Scourge Strikes for more chances for a free disease refresh.
I've been looking for the math that compares the 2 specs in the OP, as I believe 0/10/61 is already better than 12/0/59, even pre-Ulduar.
Point taken is comparing 25% threat reduction + Bladed Armor + 2h spec to 30 RP and Black Ice.
Typical Damage Spread (These are approximate, give or take 5% for different sample size)
25% Scourge Strike
15% White hit
15% Death Coil
7% Frost Fever
7% Blood Plague
4% Unholy Blight
3% Wandering Plague
3% Necrosis
3% Blood Strike
3% BcB
2% IT
2% PS
~11% Ghoul + other pets
A = 32% = White hit, BCB, blood strike, and pets are physical hits and not affected by Black Ice.
B = 68% = SS, PS, IT, DC and all other things that do shadow/frost damage
C = 51% = SS, white hit, BS, Plague Strike, Necrosis, BCB - things that use your weapon dmg and thus affected by 2h spec
Per Death Knight: PvE DPS (Probably slightly outdated by now)
5/5 Bladed Armor is worth 5.30% DPS
2/2 2h spec is worth 2.14% DPS
Taking both will increase your DPS by 7.44%.
Say you ditch the points from blood and grab Black Ice (10% more damage from your shadow/frost spells).
0.1 * B = 0.1 * 68% = 6.8%
TL;DR: Judging from the pure DPS increase it looks like subbing into blood will net you a higher DPS.
Homework:
1) Is the DPS breakdown per talent point still accurate? Now that people are sporting 5k-6k raid buffed AP, I doubt that Bladed Armor is worth that much nowadays.
2) Do you agree with my theoretical DPS spread? Some are too high? Too low?
3) Mountain Dew or Root Beer?
I had the chance to test new dc sigil. I tested it in two seperate sartharion 0 drake pugs by comparing scourge strikes & death coils. Amusingly the amount of ss / dc hits were the same in both pugs. Dc really gives big yellow texts, like 9kish, i suspect it would be little more in a guild run.
With Sigil of the Vengeful Heart
Scourge strike damage: 216,184, Total land: 37, Crits: 17
Death coil damage: 130,346, Total land: 26, Crits: 6
Highest dc crit:9065 (looks kewl)
Scourge strike damage: 247,715, Total land: 37, Crits: 17
Death coil damage: 108,443, Total land: 26, Crits: 10
Highest dc crit:7282
Net damage difference: 9628 favoring awareness. But on awareness test, dc crited 4 more times which can be assumed like 4 normal dc hits difference which makes roughly +- 12500 damage in favor of vengeful heart sigil.
12500-9628=2872 favoring vengeful heart sigil on a 3m steady encounter. So the difference seems to be very little, you can squeeze it by not casting unholy blight. But i'm not sure if it will be something worth. Also if you happen to lose 4t7 bonus, vengeful sigil lose its value.
Edit: Tests were done with 7/10/54 spec 2/3 morbidity, dc glyph, and same gear in both. Maxing morbidity might make a bit more difference.
This sigil seems to be more of a frost dps sigil. Might also be something worthy as blood (which i'm going to test).
Im making fairly good progress up to Mimiron is Uludar as Unholy as 7/10/54, the damage is pretty good top 1 sometimes 2 but on Mimi, i have problems with pets dying and nerfing my dps. In fairness is seems more like a keep yourself alive fight at all costs, dps comes 2nd but im wondering if ghoul frenzy is worth the point, maybe im to slow or what ever. Pulling my pet of in phase 1 while trying to navigate through the bombs is to hard for me so in the end i just let him die or all most die while i get out safely, he also dies on 2nd phase alot to, as for gargoyle.. Maybe its just worth switching to blood for this boss, the extra healing would be kind of nice to i guess.
Im making fairly good progress up to Mimiron is Uludar as Unholy as 7/10/54, the damage is pretty good top 1 sometimes 2 but on Mimi, i have problems with pets dying and nerfing my dps. In fairness is seems more like a keep yourself alive fight at all costs, dps comes 2nd but im wondering if ghoul frenzy is worth the point, maybe im to slow or what ever. Pulling my pet of in phase 1 while trying to navigate through the bombs is to hard for me so in the end i just let him die or all most die while i get out safely, he also dies on 2nd phase alot to, as for gargoyle.. Maybe its just worth switching to blood for this boss, the extra healing would be kind of nice to i guess.
Use a macro that lets your ghoul leap at you and follow you in p1 as you run from the boss. Activate GF shortly before p2 starts, navigate the ghoul around dark glare and occasionally either refresh GF or use a macro to throw a DC at him.
Mimiron is one of the few fights GF really comes in handy because there are so many downtimes you can use to cast it.
Gargoyle is best used in p1 and p4.
I'd only switch to blood in order to buff the raid with abominations might.
Im making fairly good progress up to Mimiron is Uludar as Unholy as 7/10/54, the damage is pretty good top 1 sometimes 2 but on Mimi, i have problems with pets dying and nerfing my dps. In fairness is seems more like a keep yourself alive fight at all costs, dps comes 2nd but im wondering if ghoul frenzy is worth the point, maybe im to slow or what ever. Pulling my pet of in phase 1 while trying to navigate through the bombs is to hard for me so in the end i just let him die or all most die while i get out safely, he also dies on 2nd phase alot to, as for gargoyle.. Maybe its just worth switching to blood for this boss, the extra healing would be kind of nice to i guess.
While your Gargoyle won't live long in any phase I'd advise on using it in Phase 1, Phase 3 and Phase 4 if it get's ready another time.
For your ghoul:
1. Huddle (the shieldwall like spell you never had to use in Naxx) will make your ghoul life through the AoE. Remember this when all other options fail.
2. for easier control in this fight I use the following macro:
/petpassive
/cast [target=player] leap
after I passed the mines. Leap's range is pretty big, so your ghoul should make it before the shockwave goes off. Remember to deactivate autocast on Leap. I also add /petattack to my PS-,SS- and BS macros so I don't have to worry about it standing around doing nothing while being in meleerange.
3. In Phase 2 keep GF up. One time before the phase starts and one time in the fight with bloodtab should be enough.
4. If you have at least 3 Shamies suggest that a Nature Resistence totem should be put down in meleerange. My ghoul will live through the AoE when it is fully healed, buffed and has the NR buff.
C = 42% = SS, white hit, BS, Plague Strike - things that use your weapon dmg and thus affected by 2h spec
Not sure that this line is relevant to the rest of the post/maths but in case it is I thought I'd point out an error:
You've listed 25% Scourge Strike, 15% White hit, 3% Blood Strike, 2% PS. 25+15+3+2=45%, not 42%.
Also assuming that you are correct that 2h spec affects anything based off Weapon Damage (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) then BCB should also be included in that list, bringing the total (again from your numbers) to 48% of dps affected by 2h Spec.
Not sure that this line is relevant to the rest of the post/maths but in case it is I thought I'd point out an error:
You've listed 25% Scourge Strike, 15% White hit, 3% Blood Strike, 2% PS. 25+15+3+2=45%, not 42%.
Also assuming that you are correct that 2h spec affects anything based off Weapon Damage (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) then BCB should also be included in that list, bringing the total (again from your numbers) to 48% of dps affected by 2h Spec.
That is correct. It should also include Necrosis as it takes your white damage and add 20% to that for 5 points. C will be 51%.
Does anyone have a stat weight for hit where you're melee but not spell hit capped? As a dranei I can hit cap my melee at 7%. If we're working on 11% for spell hit, I'm obvioulsy a good chunk under this.
The numbers in post 1 state a hit stat weight of 1.968. This must be only if you gain melee and spell hit. If you're only gaining spell hit, what weight should I be using?
My, probably overly simplistic look at spell damage, is as follows:
I'm basing this roughly off my last PW - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I know I let my diseases slip off a couple of times so let's assume a couple more ITs.
DC - 12.5%
UB - 5%
IT - 1%
18.5%, give or take, of damage has spell hit applied (am I missing anything else that uses spell hit?) 18.5% of the 1.968 is 0.364. Is this the right way to look at it?
If you maths guys can explain where I'm going wrong (if I am) and produce a more accurate spell only hit stat weight, I'd be most obliged.
Does anyone have a stat weight for hit where you're melee but not spell hit capped? As a dranei I can hit cap my melee at 7%. If we're working on 11% for spell hit, I'm obvioulsy a good chunk under this.
The numbers in post 1 state a hit stat weight of 1.968. This must be only if you gain melee and spell hit. If you're only gaining spell hit, what weight should I be using?
My, probably overly simplistic look at spell damage, is as follows:
I'm basing this roughly off my last PW - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I know I let my diseases slip off a couple of times so let's assume a couple more ITs.
DC - 12.5%
UB - 5%
IT - 1%
18.5%, give or take, of damage has spell hit applied (am I missing anything else that uses spell hit?) 18.5% of the 1.968 is 0.364. Is this the right way to look at it?
If you maths guys can explain where I'm going wrong (if I am) and produce a more accurate spell only hit stat weight, I'd be most obliged.
Cheers.
Prior to 3.1 it dropped to around 0.90 or so after you cap melee hit, not sure what it is exactly now, but I would expect a similar drop in value.
Sacrificing Strength for Expertise - Ulduar gearing
I'm extremely curious as to how much of an effect expertise actually has on Unholy's performance. Right now it is pretty easy to cap expertise in the "best" T7 gear (especially as an orc), but the way it's looking in Ulduar, you'll have to make some serious sacrifices to cap dodge neglect. The current "best" set thrown together from known gear in the BiS thread gives us only 118 expertise rating (19 expertise, 4.75% neglect with talents).
To make it to the 173 rating/6.50% chance "cap" we would have to sacrifice a chunk of strength to get that extra 55 expertise, ideally a 16 str gem and switching from 40 str food to 40 expertise food.
A statweight will tell you that strength trumps all, and it's clear that our spells and pets do not benefit from expertise. We also have a fairly loose rotation that wouldn't be completely thrown off by any sort of miss.
But I'm not entirely convinced that pure strength is the way to go. I don't like random misses, especially if multiple happen in a string. Missing a Scourge Strike that could've proc'd the glyph at the end of your diseases' duration is devastating. It seems difficult to decide.
someone already tried an 0.17.54 spec with obliterate with all the arp gear? http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...1&version=9806 spec
rotation would be
ps it ob it (with tap) bs dc dc
dc ob ob ob dc dc maybe the dmg is higher with alle the arp gear but im not sure :P
I'm extremely curious as to how much of an effect expertise actually has on Unholy's performance. Right now it is pretty easy to cap expertise in the "best" T7 gear (especially as an orc), but the way it's looking in Ulduar, you'll have to make some serious sacrifices to cap dodge neglect. The current "best" set thrown together from known gear in the BiS thread gives us only 118 expertise rating (19 expertise, 4.75% neglect with talents).
To make it to the 173 rating/6.50% chance "cap" we would have to sacrifice a chunk of strength to get that extra 55 expertise, ideally a 16 str gem and switching from 40 str food to 40 expertise food.
A statweight will tell you that strength trumps all, and it's clear that our spells and pets do not benefit from expertise. We also have a fairly loose rotation that wouldn't be completely thrown off by any sort of miss.
But I'm not entirely convinced that pure strength is the way to go. I don't like random misses, especially if multiple happen in a string. Missing a Scourge Strike that could've proc'd the glyph at the end of your diseases' duration is devastating. It seems difficult to decide.
I think of the 3 basic DK specs, unholy gains the least of expertise.
With the instant refund of runes on a dodged attack, the only real loss is the loss of a GCD worth of dps. Which is still a lot, but an affordable something for unholy.
Whereas blood and frost are so locked into their rotation without any real margin for error that they value expertise higher.
[edit]: For clarity sake, im not saying expertise is useless for unholy. Far from that, I'm just saying that relatively I assume we get less out of it than a blood or frost DK.
I'm extremely curious as to how much of an effect expertise actually has on Unholy's performance. Right now it is pretty easy to cap expertise in the "best" T7 gear (especially as an orc), but the way it's looking in Ulduar, you'll have to make some serious sacrifices to cap dodge neglect. The current "best" set thrown together from known gear in the BiS thread gives us only 118 expertise rating (19 expertise, 4.75% neglect with talents).
To make it to the 173 rating/6.50% chance "cap" we would have to sacrifice a chunk of strength to get that extra 55 expertise, ideally a 16 str gem and switching from 40 str food to 40 expertise food.
A statweight will tell you that strength trumps all, and it's clear that our spells and pets do not benefit from expertise. We also have a fairly loose rotation that wouldn't be completely thrown off by any sort of miss.
But I'm not entirely convinced that pure strength is the way to go. I don't like random misses, especially if multiple happen in a string. Missing a Scourge Strike that could've proc'd the glyph at the end of your diseases' duration is devastating. It seems difficult to decide.
Ultimately it's mostly going to be preference whether you gem for expertise cap, as the difference is fairly minor. Perfect rotation versus slightly higher overall damage.
I would recommend trying to obtain high ilevel items with expertise already on them. The ring from Ulduar25 trash, or the tier 8 chest come instantly to mind. You should NEVER be gemming expertise, and its probably ill-advised to enchant it either, as Strength is still a far greater DPS stat for us (in every spec).
Regarding the lack of expertise on Ulduar gear, I'm showing [Worldcarver] being a slight upgrade over [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] (weapon DPS loss included) for those with the orc axe expertise racial.
Makes gearing for expertise significantly easier, not to mention readily available.
Regarding the lack of expertise on Ulduar gear, I'm showing [Worldcarver] being a slight upgrade over [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] (weapon DPS loss included) for those with the orc axe expertise racial.
Makes gearing for expertise significantly easier, not to mention readily available.
That doesn't make any sense. What are you using for this?
04/23/09, 9:58 PM
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