I used the stat weights posted on the first page of the thread. I'm assuming they're still accurate as i didn't see mention of new updated values. That, combined the orc expertise racial worth ~41 exp rating, nudges in favor of Worldcarver.

I want retouch a subject that we discussed earlier.

At the moment there is a lot of discussion going between Necrosis and mainly Improved Unholy Aura.
However it might be nice to revise our view on Morbidity, now that 2 weeks of ulduar passed.

Methods already confirmed that Morbidity is in fact one of the worst dps talents that we pick. I could redo the calculations but thats kind of redundant.

I was one of the people that put morbidity forward as a must have talent, because pre-3.1 we had to base most our experience on naxx.
Even though the 5% more Death Coil damage per point is really low dps (Death coil is less than 10% of your dps usually so you're talking about 0.5% per point at best), I personally valued morbidity for its 15 second reduction on the DnD cooldown, which in naxx i rated as near invalueable for overal dps performance.

HOWEVER, now that we experienced Ulduar a bit I have to say. I hardly ever use Death and Decay, and when I do, I can usually get away with 1 DnD per 30 seconds.

I'd like to get some more input on this but the way i view it is this:

---===[ Possible Spoilers up ahead ]===--- (although i think most people know ulduar by now)

Trash: Mostly useless, because a lot of the trash disallows aoe'ing for several reasons. Maybe this comes back in the future, but so far i found there is few trash that can be aoe'ed. And we often crowd control trash now, so even pestilence is out of the question.

Razorscale: One of the fights that promotes using Death and Decay.
Ignis: No AoE involved
Decontructor: No AoE involved
Kolagarn: We personally put melee dps on the boss while ranged kill the adds, so for me there is no AoE here. And even if there was 1 DnD/30 sec would more than suffice
Iron Council: Single target DPS
Auriaya: AoE involved, however 1 DnD per 30 seconds would suffice
Hodir: No AoE
Thorim: This is one of the places where extra AoE would come in handy, if you stay in the arena that is.
Freya: The wave with the exploding adds can initially be aoe'ed down a bit before starting single target (to make sure they dont all explode at once), however 1 DnD / 30 sec more than suffices for this initial aoe.
Mimiron: No AoE
General: No AoE
Yogg-Saron: No AoE (havent been in phase 3 yet, so maybe there)

However that in total brings us to 2 bosses where the 15 second reduction might be somewhat useful, (Razorscale and Thorim) And in both cases, I think the loss of the 15 second longer CD is not devastating.

In return however by switching those 3 points from Morbidity to Necrosis we get nearly 1% more dps. If you assume necrosis is 0.8% dps and morbidity (in best case) is 0.5% dps, then you gain 0.3% dps per point.

Just some food for thought, maybe others can disagree on my assessment.

This would make unholy/blood look like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And unholy/frost like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

---------

Another alternative is to put 2 points in Morbidity, like earlier mentioned. To keep the benefit of the shorter cooldown and transfer the last point to necrosis for more dps.
Because in practice very often people only use DnD once per 20 seconds anyway, since that always fits better with runes. (Easier to get the rotation right).

This post in the UI forum discussing a new generic priority queue addon got me thinking. Afabar posted an unholy DK priority list to that thread here, but I found it to be incomplete and outright wrong in places. With the scourge strike glyph, I feel unholy is better suited to a priority list than a rotation. Many of my changes are debatable, which is of course the idea.

if all runes are on cooldown, runic power <=75, and Empower Rune Weapon is available, cast it
if Runic Power >=50, Heroism/Bloodlust buff is up, and Summon Gargoyle is available, cast it
if Blood Plague debuff not on the target or duration <=3s, cast Plague Strike
if Frost Fever debuff not on the target or duration <=3s, cast Icy Touch
if Scourge Strike available (F/U runes or double Death runes), cast it
if Blood Strike available (B rune only), cast it
if Bone Shield buff is gone, B runes won't refresh as Death runes (second half of standard 20s rotation) and Bone Shield is available, cast it. With Blood Tap, if it's available. (1 GCD, as blood tap doesn't generate a GCD)
if Unholy Blight buff not present and RP >= 40, cast it.
if RP >=40, Death Coil.
if all runes are on >=1.5s cooldown and B runes won't refresh as Death runes (second half of standard 20s rotation) and Blood Tap is available, Blood Tap and Ghoul Frenzy (1 GCD, as blood tap doesn't generate a GCD)
if all runes are on >1.5s cooldown and Horn of Winter is available, cast it.

For the most part you are describing instances in which you do or do not use DnD. You make the point that those talentpoints may be spent better in Necrosis. Ok, I can go along with that. However this is still based on the idea that IUP is superior to Necrosis. An idea that I think is still up in the air.

The actual challange from my point of view is to compare Morbidity with IUP, because I clearly remember people arguing the exact same way about IUP, i.e.: "IUP is bad on this, this, this and this boss"

The statement "Morbidity is in fact one of the worst dps talents that we pick" just sounds a little awkward in the face of IUP.

I agree that Morbidity is pretty useless in Ulduar. It is amazing in Naxxramas and even Sartharion+3, but the only time I think I actually use the reduced Death and Decay cooldown is Thorim's arena, and even that is a pushover once you understand it and have the proper group setup. Unless a lot of AoE becomes prevalent in a future encounter or hard mode (maybe Freya? I don't know) it's pretty lame.

I've tried it out but I don't see Ghoul Frenzy actually being useful in Ulduar either. The only times I use it are either right before the pull or during transitions like Mimiron phases. It seems like a pretty mediocre DPS increase, and I never use it for the heal. Night of the Dead and raid healing keep it up, or I need to move the ghoul out of something that one shots it.

I like IUP. Run speed to recover from a wipe, move out of fire, move out of the raid when you're the bomb, catch back up to the boss, chase after that add, move to that position, etc, adds up quickly. Yogg Saron himself is movement heavy.

Even on the fights where DnD would be useful, I have found that with 0/10/61 the lack of Subversion makes DnD a risky proposition on both Thorim and Razorscale. The adds on those fights die so quickly and they have to be picked up so fast that DnD could pull aggro. In fact, I've noticed some aggro issues on trash in general with the above spec. I'm considering dumping Morbidity for Subversion. Of course, my aggro issues might not be 100% accurate, as there is a particular Rogue who loves to ToTT me at the beginning of trash pulls.

The discussions are completely orthogonal. Even with frost subspec, you don't have enough points for all of them. Sure, if you choose to skip IUP for more DPS, then you can get 3/3 morbidity and 5/5 necrosis with frost, but with blood subspec you still are short two points. The cookie cutter specs have, to this point, either been 1/5 necrosis with IUP or 3/5 necrosis without, and both with 3/3 morbidity. Revising them to put necrosis over morbidity is a totally reasonable point for debate, though I suspect it should remain in the unresolved column and be left to personal preference, much like IUP is. And let's be honest, in either case we're talking about, at an absolute maxiumum, a 2% swing in DPS, so if people want to take a 2% single target DPS hit for better mobility or aoe, that seems pretty reasonable to me, whether permanently or simply as an alternate spec.

Though i agree somewhat, this is a different discussion.
I could've just as well put no points in IUP and put some in morbidity.

The problem with IUP is that it DPS gain is next to unmeasurable, differs enormously from fight to fight and even has other aspects like survivability and grinding. (Although some might not care at all, the -1 sec on rune refresh is quite nice for dailies or whatever)

However lets just leave IUP out of the question for the moment, if you like it put points in it, if not put those points in Necrosis / Morbidity.

However that still leaves us with the question how do we divide the talent points.

Assume the blood/unholy spec. Take all the must have talents, and basically you have 6 free talent points.

Now there are a few different options:
1) 3/3 Morb // 2/2 IUP // 1/5 Nec
2) 3/3 Morb // 0/2 IUP // 3/5 Nec
3) 0/3 Morb // 2/2 IUP // 4/5 Nec
4) 1/3 Morb // 0/2 IUP // 5/5 Nec
5) 0/3 Morb // 1/2 IUP // 5/5 Nec

There are more options, but the basics pretty much come down to. Which of the 3 do I max ? And where do i put the leftovers ?

Now IUP again is a good debate, but its a subjective debate, as the talent does not provide a clearly statistical benefit like necrosis does for example.

The same used to be true for Morbidity as well. Even though the 15% DC damage is a fairly statistical benefit, the -15 sec CD on DnD is not. Its a preference thing.
The reason all our current specs have 3/3 Morbidity isnt because the 15% DC damage is THAT good, because quite frankly it sucks. However we based our experience on Naxx / Sarth where death and decay was a much used spell.

I was merely stating that maybe its time to revise our view of morbidity. I quite frankly see not much reason to shorten my cooldown on Death and Decay for Ulduar purposes. Which means I'm investing 3 talent points mainly for a 15% DC benefit. Thats +5% DC damage per point, which comes down to 0.4-0.5% dps per point, which is quite bad.

All our cookie cutter specs currently have 3 of the 6 points in morbidity and the last 3 points go either in both IUP/necrosis or only necrosis. (Preference call pretty much)

Maybe we should revise this and say: Ok morbidity kind of sucks, necrosis is way better. We can either:
- Put 5/5 Necrosis and 1/3 Morbidity
- Put 4/5 Necrosis and 2/2 IUP (if you want the speed)

Because i think necrosis is being undervalued and therefor treated as a filler talent. If i check the percentage of dps that comes from my white damage, we're talking about roughly 20% of the total dps (roughly because i don't have any good WWS reports of ulduar)
That means that necrosis still accounts for 4% total dps, or 0.8% dps per point

---------------

TL;DR version:
We've lately been treating morbidity as an "out-of-the-question must-have" talent. While in fact its performance in ulduar is quite bad.

Worthy of some discussion I think

Hi, new to the theorycrafting thing, but willing to learn

First of all, loving the discussion, but i do have some questions, since i suck at math. I read and learned a lot thanks to this thread. Now i'd like to contribute and show my 3.1 plans.
Do not mind the armoury for my char, as i am trying to go on a whole new direction with it. The guild wants me to dps, so i'm gonna do just that. I have chosen Unholy for that purpose. I have not yet respecced as i would like to do this one right.

I plan on the following specc: DPS Unholy tri-Build

I don't want you to question if it's the best cookiecutter spec out there, this specc just fits my playstyle. I do not like pets, thus no garg or permaghoul. I use 2h weapons with rune of the fallen crusader. Like the stuff being discussed now, i've chosen not to go with morbidity as i do not use DnD, instead opted for necrosis.

Would i be right to assume that a decent rotation would be :

IT -> PS -> SS -> BS -> BS -> Unholy blight (rune dump)
SS -> SS -> PS -> Pestilence -> Deathcoil (rune dump)

I would glyph disease to keep the diseases up without doing another IT + PS to keep max SS'ing. For the third rotation i would keep it the same as the second, but since i have more runic power each time i would be able to DC twice. Then i start all over if the mob isn't dead. I do wonder if i can keep this up with deathrunes, or if i am completely missing the ball here and need to use more bloodrunes, thus not being able to keep up the rotation.

I've tried testing it with Kahories DK simulator and with pre-raid gear (i am casual) i would be around 3400 dps.

Would all this be viable, or do you guys think never to raid with someone who uses this build ? My apologies for the horrible english, and i hope to contribute.

This with the previous priority list is almost the exact priority I have built into my spreadsheet simulator. I use 1.5-2 seconds for disease refresh. Basically in a 'real' situation if you are about to use your last pair of FU and diseases have less time than your other FU runes you should be casting PS/IT. From a theory perspective this priority also puts out the most possible dps for the SS Glyph that I can find. I call it Zero Waste.

Good discussion so I'll weigh in using last night's Ulduar run as my guide and a couple past runs.
Wow Web Stats

I'm running 0/10/61 with 3/5 necrosis, 2/2 IUP, GF, and 3/3 morbidity.

I definately agree with your analysis Foxx that the DnD cooldown is pretty worthless. I rarely use it on trash because of the aggro but have used it on some of the boss's you mention. However, I've found +15% to my primary runic dump to be invaluable. Maybe it's because I DC more often during heavy movement fights while I'm running to a boss or adds but it's definately more than the extra 8% I'd gain from filling out necrosis.

That's not to say Necrosis is as bad as people make it out to be. I think once I obtain a better weapon, I'll look at the numbers again and might find it to be better than morbidity. The talent does scale based on auto attacks which is typically our 2nd highest damaging ability behind SS (1st) and more than DC (3rd).

There's also replacing IUP with the run speed boot enchant (it's only 8% though), dropping GF for just better pet management (I'm not there yet), etc.

So Foxx may be onto something here but better weapon upgrades may be needed for us to really see necrosis become greater than morbidity. I like to have both talents so I'll probably steal 2 points from elsewhere once I pick up an Ulduar weapon like Worldcarver or Earthshaper.

I've finally updated the front page some things included are the

7/10/54 build

gear from the BiS thread that I plan to check on and update when new information and debate is available.

Also about Morbidity I've included in the first post that it's a preference thing, and it's been there for a while, but I like this talking about it. I think unholy provides a good deal of leeway to play diversely from another DK, even in small ways.

I'm not sure of anything else I really need to add right now but if you feel there is feel free to let me know via PM. Sorry for taking so long.

In regards to morbidity, necrosis, and IUP:

I think a lot of recent posts are neglecting GF. Perhaps it's just laziness on my part, and I'm going to work on perfecting it, but GF seems clumsy to me, and not particularly easy to utilize. It has, the way I've been using it, a max of 50% uptime, and all in all, doesn't seem that great. I think we should be adding that to our discussions.

Additionally, here's the build I'll be running in Ulduar next week (trying GF again this week):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

No more GF, instead opting for 2/3 Morbidity, 2/2 IUP, 5/5 Necrosis.

Looking back on my numbers, even with Black Ice, and with the Glyph of Dark Death, I never got over 10% of my damage from Death Coil. It was usually 7-9% of my damage and for Blood specs it should be even lower. So, I agree, this all hinges on Death and Decay, which I use much much less in Ulduar.

Foxx's post is spot on, and I'll be dropping two from Morbidity to finish out Necrosis.

edit: In regards to Ghoul Frenzy, popping it right before the pull and then when Blood Tap is up and not needed for refreshing Bone Shield seems to be enough uptime to be worth 1 point. I agree that it's way too much work to try and hit it every 30 seconds, but it still seems like it should be better than a point in Morbidity, which is now our worst dps talent. :/

Since Morbidity is less than incredible would it be out of the question to pick up Annihilation after going in to frost for Black Ice? 3% crit on SS/BS/PS (assuming you prefer not to have IUP),
looking something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9767

I see my ghoul getting fairly hefty critical hits with his Claw as well, so it may be even better if he also benefits from it. Just some food for thought.

//edit: fixed link

And now you've entered the "Let's use obliterate for Unholy Instead" territory .

Which while I personally would not want to go into, I'm curious to see if we can find a way for unholy to utilize Obliterate and do more or at least the same amount of damage. In which case you're now putting ARP greatly above it's current value (Definitely more than 1.0 but I can't tell exactly where). You'll want to switch out the SS glyph with Obliterate for this too.

Despite my previous sentence of saying I wouldn't want to try... but I kind of want to now.

I really miss the enhance shaman sim. It would make all this stuff trivial.

I made the suggested "zero waste" changes to address capping runic power and refreshing diseases early. I'm not confident that either change will stand up to real testing, but the priority list is now sufficiently complex and time-sensitive that it would require an addon to follow exactly. Comments/changes?

if all runes are on cooldown, runic power <=75, and Empower Rune Weapon is available, cast it
if Runic Power >=50, Heroism/Bloodlust buff is up, and Summon Gargoyle is available, cast it
if Blood Plague debuff not on the target or duration <=1.5s, cast Plague Strike
if Frost Fever debuff not on the target or duration <=1.5s, cast Icy Touch
if RP >=(RPMax-30) and Unholy Blight buff not present, Unholy Blight (RPMax = 100 without runic power mastery talent)
if RP >=(RPMax-30), Death Coil
if Scourge Strike available (F/U runes or double Death runes), cast it
if Blood Strike available (B rune only), cast it
if Bone Shield buff is gone, B runes won't refresh as Death runes (second half of standard 20s rotation) and Bone Shield is available, cast it. With Blood Tap, if it's available. (1 GCD, as blood tap doesn't generate a GCD)
if Unholy Blight buff not present and RP >= 40, cast it.
if RP >=40, Death Coil.
if all runes are on >=1.5s cooldown and B runes won't refresh as Death runes (second half of standard 20s rotation) and Blood Tap is available, Blood Tap and Ghoul Frenzy (1 GCD, as blood tap doesn't generate a GCD)
if all runes are on >1.5s cooldown and Horn of Winter is available, cast it.

i have a rather odd build compared to most that ppl here r talking bout due to the fact that im not seeing huge benefits from 0/10/61, i run a 16/0/55 (The World of Warcraft Armory ) there is a link to my armory. as u can see im fairly well geared, and im number 1 dps in 90 percent of all encounters, but as u can see i don't have full blood caked blade due to the fact it seems to make up a small portion of my dps, im wondering if there is anything i should tweak or what not or maybe just some feedback? i know im way over expertise cap and hit cap but can't be helped atm due to lack of gear drops in ulduar. for those of u wondering bout my spec im open to any questions u may have about it

It makes up a small portion of your DS because it's a stand alone talent for 3 points. Any damage you see from Blood Caked Blade is the direct increase it provides to you. So if it did 3% damage it's 1% per point, 2.6% = roughly 8.75% per point which is bigger than Necrosis.

You're also lacking Dirge which provides you with another huge dps increase, which means if you're seeing an increase in damage it's because you're not spending your runic power before you hit your cap, meaning you're doing less than your maximum amount of DPS.

And when standing still single target Unholy Blight does more damage than death coil, factor in AOE damage and there is 0 reason not to take Unholy Blight.

You haven't abandoned the entire premise of unholy or anything, you're settling for inferior placement of points to make up for a lack of skill which honestly... isn't a terrible idea.

Looks like somebody beat me to it but... yea... sounds like the rest of your group isn't as well geared/skilled as you, because there is no way you should be doing more dps with that build than a build properly using BCB, dirge, and UB.

I strongly agree. I was going through my WWS myself a while ago and checked Necrosis versus BCB damage and even at my gear level I had to find out that BCB was the same damage or even more than Necrosis was per Talent Point. And in my opinion BCB only becomes stronger as you get a better Weapon. So with the weapon that is used there BCB should be doing way way more damage per Talent Point than Necrosis.
I hope I didn't say anything wrong here, since I'm new to this.

so i should drop my death coil spam and opt for unholy blight? one of the reasons i didn't pick up dirge is 4 piece t7 i seem to be drowning in RP, only time it become an issue is when im popping garg, i try to sneak in a death coil every now and then, i undertand that if i put points in frost a gain more runic power which would be nice. does it allow garg to bout out longer? mine seems to always be out full duration even with me sneakin in death coils and not having dirge.