Really interesting stuff, thanks for the research. If not for the convenience of the SS glyph I might have to switch, I bet the UB glyph becomes even more powerful when the T7 4pc nerf comes into play in 3.1.2
UB is only really useful when you're stuck on the target 100% of the time which isn't the case, especially in Ulduar. Vezax and Ignis might be the only bosses that you will be on the entire time, do the sims take that into account? I doubt it. SS glyph would clearly have an advantage as it lets you get a few more large hits in whatever your window is.
Really interesting stuff, thanks for the research. If not for the convenience of the SS glyph I might have to switch, I bet the UB glyph becomes even more powerful when the T7 4pc nerf comes into play in 3.1.2
No, you'll cast less DC's decreasing the glyph of dark death's value, that's all. Think about it. You don't cast any more UB's than now since there is no point to it.
Originally Posted by shed
UB is only really useful when you're stuck on the target 100% of the time which isn't the case, especially in Ulduar. Vezax and Ignis might be the only bosses that you will be on the entire time, do the sims take that into account? I doubt it. SS glyph would clearly have an advantage as it lets you get a few more large hits in whatever your window is.
First: My UB ticks for about 300 raidbuffed. Thats about 6000 damage compared to 4000 from a deathcoil. So you only need about 2/3 of the ticks to hit at least one target to get about the same benefit from UB as you get from DC.
Second: Take Mimiron as an example. Your argument would say that this is a horrible boss for UB, because you're not at the boss dps'ing all the time. However you assume that you'd be keeping UB up while the boss is switching phases, which of course you don't.
You only fire it when you're confident that you'll hit at least 15 times or so.
Which brings me to my third point: Hitting 15 times becomes increasingly easy with a lot of mobs around. Flame leviathan is actually the only boss I don't use UB.
First: My UB ticks for about 300 raidbuffed. Thats about 6000 damage compared to 4000 from a deathcoil. So you only need about 2/3 of the ticks to hit at least one target to get about the same benefit from UB as you get from DC.
Second: Take Mimiron as an example. Your argument would say that this is a horrible boss for UB, because you're not at the boss dps'ing all the time. However you assume that you'd be keeping UB up while the boss is switching phases, which of course you don't.
You only fire it when you're confident that you'll hit at least 15 times or so.
Which brings me to my third point: Hitting 15 times becomes increasingly easy with a lot of mobs around. Flame leviathan is actually the only boss I don't use UB.
You're trying to make a point with only 1 boss and only 1 phase of a boss. There is no burst with UB and if you aren't using it all the time then it is almost a waste of a glyph. My argument was comparing SS glyph to UB glyph and how the extra burst from extra runes is there.
I've been debating recently on removing the point form GF and putting it into Necrosis. I rarely use this talent as my pet rarely needs to be healed. Has there been any definitive tests done on rather this really is a helpful talent to add to dps or not, or if the point taken from it and put into Necrosis would warrant more dps
Sry but i couldn't find this answers in other places.
I play unholy 12/0/59, my weapon is Worldcarver.
I have both dps sigils, Vengeful Hearth and Awareness. Wich brings me more dps?
Also have Bandit's Insignia and Fury of the Five Flights. In a static fight where i can have Fury stacked up all times, will Insignia still be better? Wrathstone seems like a good gargoyle launcher, why is it bad?
Im using 4 piece T7.5 and wasn't planning to change it, but the nerf came (as expected). As soon as i get 2 T8.5 i go to 2 of each? In the end 4 piece T8.5 is better than 2 of each?
Im using one 16 expertise gem to cap it. Is expertise for unholy rated low to the point i should replace it for 16 strenght? Asking this also to clarify: Getting some upgrades that put me under expertise cap but netting some good stats is worth it?
About armor penetration: How bad should I avoid it? A 226 lvl item with armor penetration can be worse than a 213 lvl item?
The Drape of the Darkrider is a big upgrade over my Drape of the Deadly Foe? I think yes because it trade that agility and AP for strenght, but the armor penetration is strange.
Thanks in advance,
Rofy
About Ghoul Frenzy.
I do use this talent a lot.
The most common case is pre pull or running to a pack of mobs; so i reach the boss/pull with 25 secs of frenzy in my pet and 5 secs of Cd in the U rune, that will be back in time if i do the blood strikes before the scourge strike. I also use it everytime i have a 'breath' like Mimiron phases swap.
Another simple use is with blood tap every 1 min, or when i have to refresh Bone shield. I use the 2 death runes for GF + Bone shield.
I use it to heal sometimes. Not too much i have to agree, but all in situations that would result in my ghoul dead otherwise, and a bigger dps loss i can assume.
I like to think it as a ranged attack that cost an unholy rune, as many times we have to move but the ghoul stay on boss.
I use it to start the fight with full RP too , but that will be nerfed so not a valid point.
I like this talent a lot on Yogg fight. In p1 we tank adds in the middle, so while i have to go in and out because of clouds, my pet is always rampant in the middle. I also use it to generate RP for DCs while i cant go to middle. In P2 i have a macro to send crazed ghouls to free myself or others from constrictor tenticles.
Overall: Not a great talent, but worth 1 point imo, with the experience i have so far.
Sry but i couldn't find this answers in other places.
I play unholy 12/0/59, my weapon is Worldcarver.
I have both dps sigils, Vengeful Hearth and Awareness. Wich brings me more dps?
Also have Bandit's Insignia and Fury of the Five Flights. In a static fight where i can have Fury stacked up all times, will Insignia still be better? Wrathstone seems like a good gargoyle launcher, why is it bad?
Im using 4 piece T7.5 and wasn't planning to change it, but the nerf came (as expected). As soon as i get 2 T8.5 i go to 2 of each? In the end 4 piece T8.5 is better than 2 of each?
Im using one 16 expertise gem to cap it. Is expertise for unholy rated low to the point i should replace it for 16 strenght? Asking this also to clarify: Getting some upgrades that put me under expertise cap but netting some good stats is worth it?
About armor penetration: How bad should I avoid it? A 226 lvl item with armor penetration can be worse than a 213 lvl item?
The Drape of the Darkrider is a big upgrade over my Drape of the Deadly Foe? I think yes because it trade that agility and AP for strenght, but the armor penetration is strange.
Thanks in advance,
Rofy
1. Awareness is better for Unholy.
2. Bandit's Insignia is considered BiS through Naxx gear.
3. Not sure on this one, I would assume 4pc tier 7 is still better than 2pc T8.5 even with the nerf, but this is just a guess. Someone would need to calculate it.
4. Expertise isn't as important for unholy DKs, our rotations aren't that tight so when we get dodged our runes just get refunded and you can fire a SS off.
5. I use some +str upgrades that have ArP from Ulduar 10 as well. I believe they are an upgrade bc of the +str to replace ap alone, but I'm also switching to blood pretty soon so I don't mind if I have some ArP items.
I recently dropped my 4pc T7 bonus(I still keep my 2pc bonus for the 5% crit to SS though) and swapped the Dark Death Glyph for the UB one and so has our other raiding DK and we haven't seen a big difference really. I still find myself able to sit at 120 RP and fire off 3 DCs pretty often.
I recently dropped my 4pc T7 bonus(I still keep my 2pc bonus for the 5% crit to SS though) and swapped the Dark Death Glyph for the UB one and so has our other raiding DK and we haven't seen a big difference really. I still find myself able to sit at 120 RP and fire off 3 DCs pretty often.
This implies you have seen a difference, even if small. Was it up or down? And are you basing your observation on he same boss fight, or just a general feeling?
You also need to consider that a lot of these calculations are made assuming certain gear, specs and play style.
I'm thinking about giving up EP and put all the points into blood instead of frost. That way you technically only waste 3 points to get all the beneficial non-unholy talents.
You will be looking at something like this: build
So instead, you remove 3 points from EP, 2 points from CF, 2 points from morbidity, all points from frost and put these 17 points into blood. This way you will lose:
10% damage from DC
Tiny bit of damage lost from IT
30 max RP
3% crit from EP, assuming 13% damage is covered by a moonkin.
10% shadow and frost damage
But you gain:
4 RP every 10 seconds
Tiny bit of damage gain from BS through crit and some threat reduction
About 1k AP from bladed armor
4% weapon damage
In the end the second option looks better to me. You get more crit, AP applies to all damage sources, RP generation partly make up for DC damage lost.
I'm thinking about giving up EP and put all the points into blood instead of frost. That way you technically only waste 3 points to get all the beneficial non-unholy talents.
You will be looking at something like this: build
So instead, you remove 3 points from EP, 2 points from CF, 2 points from morbidity, all points from frost and put these 17 points into blood. This way you will lose:
10% damage from DC
Tiny bit of damage lost from IT
30 max RP
3% crit from EP, assuming 13% damage is covered by a moonkin.
10% shadow and frost damage
But you gain:
4 RP every 10 seconds
Tiny bit of damage gain from BS through crit and some threat reduction
About 1k AP from bladed armor
4% weapon damage
In the end the second option looks better to me. You get more crit, AP applies to all damage sources, RP generation partly make up for DC damage lost.
At least you're not removing Bone Shield and Desecration too, but crypt fever and ebon plague >>> then Dark Conviction.
I think Dark Conviction is worth .4% dps per point, so its not that great. On the other hand EP inc magic damage taken and inc your chance to crit weapons and spells, the same affect as Dark Conviction. And since 80%+ of your damage is magic based, shadow, EP would be a way better investment.
This implies you have seen a difference, even if small. Was it up or down? And are you basing your observation on he same boss fight, or just a general feeling?
You also need to consider that a lot of these calculations are made assuming certain gear, specs and play style.
It's stayed around the same if not up, I'm basing it off our overall raid in general, on XT I'm still doing 6.8-6.9k, and the other DK and I are still around the top 3 if not the top.
I'm thinking about giving up EP and put all the points into blood instead of frost. That way you technically only waste 3 points to get all the beneficial non-unholy talents.
You will be looking at something like this: build
So instead, you remove 3 points from EP, 2 points from CF, 2 points from morbidity, all points from frost and put these 17 points into blood. This way you will lose:
10% damage from DC
Tiny bit of damage lost from IT
30 max RP
3% crit from EP, assuming 13% damage is covered by a moonkin.
10% shadow and frost damage
But you gain:
4 RP every 10 seconds
Tiny bit of damage gain from BS through crit and some threat reduction
About 1k AP from bladed armor
4% weapon damage
In the end the second option looks better to me. You get more crit, AP applies to all damage sources, RP generation partly make up for DC damage lost.
You're forgetting the loss of 20% disease damage by speccing this way. I would not want to lose 20% of my disease damage by having only 1 in crypt fever.
I recently dropped my 4pc T7 bonus(I still keep my 2pc bonus for the 5% crit to SS though) and swapped the Dark Death Glyph for the UB one and so has our other raiding DK and we haven't seen a big difference really. I still find myself able to sit at 120 RP and fire off 3 DCs pretty often.
What do you mean "sit at 120RP"?
You aren't supposed to be maxed at on RP, but this sounds like you are. When your RP is maxed you should dump it.
If you didn't mean it that way, then I'm just confused. But let's assume you didn't dump your RP and stay maxed for a longer time, there goes the T7 set bonus, because all the new generated RP is a waste and surely it won't make a difference in your DPS if you drop it or not.
I get RP too, without the T7 and sometimes max it out and can dump it then, but with T7 you generate more and can therefore dump more RP over time.
But like I said, maybe you had it written a bit misleading.
Which glyphs would we be using if we go about replacing SS with UB or IT.
Right now I am using Dark Death, UB, and SS. I'm guessing Glyph of the Ghoul is obsolete due to the fact our ghoul is dying on fights that have AoE? IT has potential, but with my current t7 4 piece bonus I generate enough RP. Maybe with the change to T8 it might be viable, but what would we rotate out? I am personally a fan of the SS glyph because you can almost get into a lazy blood rotation, of just spamming SS and BS on every other rotation. Even criting for 5k on a diseaseless target is not bad until you apply the DoTs with SS.
On the whole Blood/Frost side spec debate:
It's either we take less AP and crit and have more Spell Damage or we try to hold on to a more Melee driven Blood build. It's been shown that Black Ice is pretty OP and scales better than Bladed Armor. We can't have both and I think the current 0/10/61 build is the best right now.
Which glyphs would we be using if we go about replacing SS with UB or IT.
Right now I am using Dark Death, UB, and SS. I'm guessing Glyph of the Ghoul is obsolete due to the fact our ghoul is dying on fights that have AoE? IT has potential, but with my current t7 4 piece bonus I generate enough RP. Maybe with the change to T8 it might be viable, but what would we rotate out? I am personally a fan of the SS glyph because you can almost get into a lazy blood rotation, of just spamming SS and BS on every other rotation. Even criting for 5k on a diseaseless target is not bad until you apply the DoTs with SS.
On the whole Blood/Frost side spec debate:
It's either we take less AP and crit and have more Spell Damage or we try to hold on to a more Melee driven Blood build. It's been shown that Black Ice is pretty OP and scales better than Bladed Armor. We can't have both and I think the current 0/10/61 build is the best right now.
Glyph of the Ghoul is nearly our best Unholy Glyph. I'm not sure why your ghoul is dying so much but even if it is you can resummon it (after 30 seconds) and try to manage him better. I'm pretty sure this is one of the glyphs no Unholy DK should give up.
Also, on Bladed armor, it should be noted that most testing of it's relative worth were not assuming potions or devotion aura. If you have 14000 armor (388 AP) it can easily be averaged in a 25 man at nearly 17000 (472 AP). So even though the static AP bonus isn't scaling like Black Ice, it still packs a very serious amount of value especially when paired with 2H spec. Also with the decrease in RP gained there could be changes in black ice's relative worth (though any changes would be nearly impossible to see clearly in any given parse).
As a side note, on 'lazy' wait on proc playstyles, to each their own of course but in any competitive DPS environment this behavior could lead to slipping from top 3 to top 7ish or further. In my experiance there is very little reason a DK should be passed by anything but a good feral druid or rogue (on XT style fights. Unique cercumstances may apply of course).
Which glyphs would we be using if we go about replacing SS with UB or IT.
Right now I am using Dark Death, UB, and SS. I'm guessing Glyph of the Ghoul is obsolete due to the fact our ghoul is dying on fights that have AoE? IT has potential, but with my current t7 4 piece bonus I generate enough RP. Maybe with the change to T8 it might be viable, but what would we rotate out? I am personally a fan of the SS glyph because you can almost get into a lazy blood rotation, of just spamming SS and BS on every other rotation. Even criting for 5k on a diseaseless target is not bad until you apply the DoTs with SS.
On the whole Blood/Frost side spec debate:
It's either we take less AP and crit and have more Spell Damage or we try to hold on to a more Melee driven Blood build. It's been shown that Black Ice is pretty OP and scales better than Bladed Armor. We can't have both and I think the current 0/10/61 build is the best right now.
Besides from what methods said, I wanted to add that you can't just see Bladed Armor as a single talent, but that it gives you a bigger DPS increase through the points that lead to it. While on the Frost Tree you don't have that big of a DPS increase with the first 5 points.
It seems to me that there are tons of posts coming up on this topic where people haven't read the whole discussion.
Right now it is assumed that 0/10/61 is gonna be the better build when more Ulduar gear is carried and 12/0/59 the better build before that. Lots of people are reporting about the same DPS with either build, but then again it all depends on personal preference and playstyle.
You're forgetting the loss of 20% disease damage by speccing this way. I would not want to lose 20% of my disease damage by having only 1 in crypt fever.
You may consider swapping morbidity (as it's value is appearing less and less as time goes on) for EP. At which point it's 500 AP (which doesn't really scale) and a 4% bonus to 50% of your damage compared to 10% bonus to 50% of your damage and some DC damage.
Hi, long time reader first time poster. I read this thread every other day or so, and I've looked through it quite a bit but haven't stumbled across an answer I've been looking for in regards to stat weights. The previous stat weights for unholy listed a value for hit before the melee cap, and after the melee cap. I like to plug these stat weights into lootrank.com to give myself a guideline of what loot to roll on when it drops.
To my question, has anyone calculated a stat weight for hit AFTER melee hit cap? For now I kind of just calculated it at the same ratio as the previous stat weights and came up with 0.733
You may consider swapping morbidity (as it's value is appearing less and less as time goes on) for EP. At which point it's 500 AP (which doesn't really scale) and a 4% bonus to 50% of your damage compared to 10% bonus to 50% of your damage and some DC damage.
Edit: Removed idiocy. 2 RP/5 = 4 RP/10. Durrr.
EP really is only 3% crit. 13% can always be provided by moonkins at no cost to their personal dps at all.
500 AP translates to roughly 7% to 10% dps for a fully raid buffed naxx BiS geared DK(excluding the pet here).
EP really is only 3% crit. 13% can always be provided by moonkins at no cost to their personal dps at all.
A minor correction here: Earth and Moon for Moonkin can only be applied by Wrath or Starfire (single target spells). While on single targets this can be applied quickly and easily, on multiple targets EP is far easier to put up and to maintain while not affecting the DK's dps (other than via talent points) than the Earth and Moon debuff.
Because of the now upcoming Discussion about the Glyphs, the changed 4pcT7 and the buffed version of PS i´m curious if the following Rotation could work:
Blood Tap before beginning your rotation, and then:
PS - BS - SS - SS - RPDump the whole fight.
For this rotation you HAVE to use the SS Glpyh to apply frostfever in a pretty regular timeframe.
Advantages:
- You could use the Death Rune rune for PS, or you could use this rune every other rotation to refresh Ghoul Frenzy or Boneshield without disturbing your Rotation.
- You never lose Blood Plague. It it is about to expire, because of refreshing Ghoul Frenzy in the last Rotation und are hitting hit automatically.
- You don´t change a SS for IT/PS, you change it for 2xPS (when you don´t use Ghoulfrenzy). Better damage and more RP because of Dirge. The question here is.... do 2x PS more dmg than one SS? And does this Version combined with the everlasting Ghoulfrenzy more damage, than the loss of Frost Fever for a few seconds?
Disadvantage:
- Missing Frostfever, if you´ve got an unlucky proc-rate of the SS-Glyph.
What do you guys think about this rotation or what do the calculations say? Would be nice, if someone could put it in his Spreadsheet.
PS: I hope you unterstand, what i´m trying to say here. English is not my first language.
05/03/09, 12:20 AM
, but that will be nerfed so not a valid point.
