Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 24

Cabal · 04/22/09, 3:54 AM

I made some very rough and unelegant testing by counting the STR only difference between 4 T7 (with bonus) and 4 T8 (also with its bonus), which is 114 STR (warning: not counting other stats! Im lazy) and used Kahories Sim to compare them. The results were as follows:

Over 100 hours, 170ms lag.
Using 4xT7:

10-61 specc = 5600 dps
12-59 = 5552

Using 4x T8:

10-61 = 5597
12-59= 5544

So as you can see, the difference is minimal, and if you input the other stat gains from T8 instead of just STR, T8 isnt the dog everyone seems to believe it to be. The problem is it will only be (possibly) better when you do get 4 pieces of it. And that makes it the last gear im planning to go for, after my remaining slots are upgraded and tier starts to rot ^^

Foxx2405 · 04/22/09, 4:38 AM

Originally Posted by Xtremedy

I have a question on the rotation if we chose to put a point into Ghoul Frenzy for the layout of 0/10/61

Would it be wise to use Ghoul Frenzy right off the bat and miss out on one blood strike? Just wondering if anyone has seen if the Ghouls increase of dps over those 30 seconds is better than one blood strike..

ie. PS-IT-SS-BS-GF (along with the blood tap macro)

Why would you ?

I mean, why not just use ghoul frenzy without blood tap at the start of a fight ?
I always (granted the fight begins right away, so I don't do it on say Yogg), just pop ghoul frenzy as I'm running in.

If you do the rotation like this: PS>IT>BS>BS>SS
By the time you get to the SS your unholy rune should, if you timed it right, be back up again.

And this is a pure dps increase by the way, since you don't lose anything from that early unholy rune.

Originally Posted by Challenge

I'm curious have any data points been obtained using the follow rotation:

PS-IT-BS-SS-Pest

SS-SS-SS

Weave in pest based refreshes whenever you need to depending on glyph of SS procs and use blood strike to dump single blood runes or when durations are >10 sec. This way you have optimal uptime on diseases, can convert all FU runes into scourge strikes and still get the death runes from the reaping change.

Using SS/Ghoul/Pest glyphs. Alternately, you can use Ghoul/Pest/DD glyphs and force a refresh every rotation as follows:

PS-IT-BS-SS-Pest [start]

SS-SS-Pest-BS

SS-SS-SS

Pest-BS-SS-SS

SS-SS-Pest-BS

The last four lines of that would repeat indefinitely. You could also weave in ghoul frenzy and bone shield refreshes as normal. This would allow you to control diseases without the RNG that is glyph of SS or alternately to push for ever higher DPS by compensating for its randomness by blowing a BS worth of damage for a disease refresh.

Any thoughts?

We've been over this a few times already.

Did you think about the dps increase. With using Pestilence you lose a BS worth of damage every 20 seconds.
With the SS glyph you trade a SS for a PS+IT every, lets say 30 seconds.

If
(SS - PS - IT) / 30
is smaller than
BS / 20

than purely rune damage wise, the SS glyph is better. I don't have numbers at hand, but I think the BS is a bigger damage loss.

That would already put some strain on the pestilence glyph.
It's quite hard to figure out which is better though. Because if you look at RP generated with the 4xT7, the glyph of pestilence (since it never discards a SS) might come out ahead.

A lot of people prefer the SS glyph for the fact it spices up the rotation a bit though. It provides a sort of dynamic rotation, which keeps it more fun.

gsman20 · 04/22/09, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by shed

It seems I cannot summon a ghoul anymore, it uses the cooldown and the cooldown doesnt start ticking because it thinks I have one up. Anyone else seeing this? logging out, changing instances, quitting the game and changing specs isnt fixing it.

In addition to the other responses: /script PetDismiss() worked for me both times I had this happen.

Valtiel · 04/22/09, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cabal

I made some very rough and unelegant testing by counting the STR only difference between 4 T7 (with bonus) and 4 T8 (also with its bonus), which is 114 STR (warning: not counting other stats! Im lazy) and used Kahories Sim to compare them. The results were as follows:

Over 100 hours, 170ms lag.
Using 4xT7:

10-61 specc = 5600 dps
12-59 = 5552

Using 4x T8:

10-61 = 5597
12-59= 5544

So as you can see, the difference is minimal, and if you input the other stat gains from T8 instead of just STR, T8 isnt the dog everyone seems to believe it to be. The problem is it will only be (possibly) better when you do get 4 pieces of it. And that makes it the last gear im planning to go for, after my remaining slots are upgraded and tier starts to rot ^^

I wouldn't be so happy of these results. Essentially you're telling us we're not gonna scale in Ulduar, while everyone else is. Which is fine only when you assume we were doing endgame Ulduar dps in t7.

norg · 04/22/09, 7:36 AM

Well yeah, obviously if Unholy & Frost are sticking with their tier 7 then they will potentially run into issues towards the end of the zone. You'd certainly expect Unholy to be overtaken by Blood once Blood has upgraded to 4pc Tier 8, for instance.

Just shows what a pain set bonuses can be for all concerned, really.

Diello · 04/22/09, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

I wouldn't be so happy of these results. Essentially you're telling us we're not gonna scale in Ulduar, while everyone else is. Which is fine only when you assume we were doing endgame Ulduar dps in t7.

That's overstating things a lot. Even if T7 is always better than T8 we're talking about 4 pieces of armor that we won't upgrade. Annoying, but not the worst thing in the world.

Fugazor · 04/22/09, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

I wouldn't be so happy of these results. Essentially you're telling us we're not gonna scale in Ulduar, while everyone else is.

Rather it means we won't scale with 4 slots of gear - rest we can still upgrade. Also 4x ilvl239 epics are upgrade from x4 T7.5 so there is upgrade in long run.

Actually to break 4x T7.5 you "just" need two ilvl239 epics - it will be sidegrade but you will get some free stamina for all those bad aoes and you will be going for ilvl239 in every slot most likely anyway so it won't be wasted like T8 which is nice for some classes.

Zoort · 04/22/09, 7:46 AM

I was lucky enough to get my hands on the vengeful sigil. Im not really into theorycrafting, but since the thread doesnt seem very conclusive whether its worth to drop awareness for vengefull, i tried to do some testing.

12/0/59- Glyph of Dark Deat, maxed morbidity - 4 Part t7 - no Trinkets with Procs - no Weaponenchant - No HoW or Boneshield - no Foreign Debuffs/Buffs - all strikes done with both diseases up - close to one million damage for each sigil.

Im not including total dps since i was kinda unlucky with crits in the vengeful part.

With sigil of awareness:

79 SS:

Hit min = 2864
Hit avg = 3086
Hit max = 3249

Crit min = 6959
Crit avg = 7291
Crit max = 7714

link to recount pic

78 DC:

Hit min = 2059
Hit avg = 2060
Hit max = 2060

Crit min = 4304
Crit avg = 4304
Crit max = 4305

link to recount pic

With sigil of vengeful heart:

83 SS:

Hit min = 2392
Hit avg = 2590
Hit max = 2781

Crit min = 5837
Crit avg = 6187
Crit max = 6543

link to recount pic

80 DC:

Hit min = 2801
Hit avg = 2801
Hit max = 2802

Crit min = 5322
Crit avg = 5825
Crit max = 5855

link to recount pic

Im to lazy to do the math right now but maybe it will be of help to some of you

Pyhrrus · 04/22/09, 9:19 AM

Were these tests done over the same amount of time? Were they against a dummy or on a raid? How were you buffed?

Without answers to these types of questions, your data is unfortunately somewhat useless. Additionally, it would be far easier for us to use the data if you'd placed the numbers in text rather than forcing us to do the same.

If we assume that the above questions get answered in such a way that we can use the data (I'm actually guessing not - you have different numbers of SSs and DCs each time, which is one of the primary reasons for using dps and over a long enough period of time that "unlucky with crit" won't foul up the data), then we have:

Awareness (79 SS):
SS: 378k
DC: 210k

VH (83 SS):
SS: 301k
DC: 279k

Clearly, if all other things were equal, Awareness would be winning. It's doing more damage over a shorter amount of time. But that's in your 12/0/59. DC gets a big boost from Black Ice (28k in this example, though obviously SS would be lower), and I'm not sure if you've specced into Morbidity, which would also give it a big boost.

I think we've already shown that for a 12/0/59 VH is not as good as Awareness. It only comes up again when you've specced for Black Ice. The 0/10/61 has also been shown to scale better with other gear, so it makes sense to look at VH only once you're able to get it and have already switched to 0/10/61.

Exasity · 04/22/09, 9:34 AM

Hello everyone, im kinda new here, but have some question about current 3.1 changes and exactly - unholy pres. (i.e. improved unholy pres).
Honestly, i dont care about Dummy pretty much and smth like that, only thing that matter is a raid and raid bosses for me. But i did a lot of tries on Dummy in Blood pres and in Imp unholy presence. Selfbuffed, etc, gargy, ghoul - 5 min fight, all the time 1.05 mln dmg. In both presences. 3.3-3.4k DPS. Both. Okay, maybe it's not a raid.
Raid now. Simple Example. 1 wipe on XT-002 (melee DPSing boss all the time). Firts wipe @ 6.02 9enrage) in unholy presence (imp) = 7.2k dps. Second try (kill = 5.58) in BLOOD presence = 7.9k dps (Less SS crit rate, less DC crit rate, ~ 10% more white melee crit rate).
Thats why want to know...Blood or Imp unholy? :<
Imp unholy best for AOE tbh, for fast nuke fights for sure, but for long fights etc... i dont knows, cant find any calculations about Blood vs. Imp unholy :<
Looking for some help

Thanks.

DunZi · 04/22/09, 9:36 AM

Did someone tested a 0/10/61 with only one point in Epidemic?
like this - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Ran some test with DKsim and it performed well, but I never played unholy with shorter disease duration in a raid.

Kellhus · 04/22/09, 10:47 AM

I picked up the Vengeful Heart last night and am running the 0/10/61 spec. It was our first time doing it so I lost dps on positioning and the general newness factor.

For council of iron - (my top 2 damage dealing abilities), done in blood pres.

Name | Damage | % of total | #Hits | Avg hit | Total hit damage | #Crit | Avg crit |Total crit damage
Scourge Strike | 486684 | 24.8 % | 49 | 3665.9 | 179628 | 36 | 8529.3 | 307056
Death Coil | 437593 | 22.3 % | 43 | 4039.1 | 173683 | 31 | 8513.2 | 263910

*sorry for the bad formatting here, full logs linked below

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

What I don't understand though is that DC being a spell should be operating at a lower crit %, since my melee crit is certainly higher on the MELEE tab than my spell crit on the SPELLS tab -- but the logs show them, % wise, right on top of each other and I can't really account for that yet.

Thekinslayer · 04/22/09, 10:59 AM

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...=&version=9767

This, something I came up with, because IMO ghoul frenzy is not viable, as if you don't use it correctly it can severely screw up your rotation. IUP isn't great either, at least for dps. That leaves 3 points doing nothing, but put 'em into Necrosis you get a dps jump. Any feedback, though, is more than welcome.

Tel · 04/22/09, 11:10 AM

Both Ghoul Frenzy and IUP have been shown to be a DPS increase if used correctly. The fact you're struggling to do so unfortunatly doesn't make your spec better.

I would suggest just taking some time on the target dummy to practise using GF and you'll have it sorted in no time.

Mumra · 04/22/09, 11:23 AM

Looking at the new stat weights for unholy, 23 haste is now a better enchant than 22 agi for our cloaks. I see a lot of DKs still with agi. Just a heads up.