level12wizard

I don't see threat as an issue as 0/10/61 if your tanks are on the ball, although maybe somewhat on AoE. Fifteen to twenty percent of your single target damage comes from pets, I generally can't pull aggro even if I'm sitting in Frost Presence trying to (exaggeration, but you get my point).

 

PristineChaos

I was able to get Unholy Blight talented and working on PTR.
However, it does not cause overkill, so we really cannot do much testing unless you can somehow find a dummy not at 1 hp.

 

Myrx

I'd take that wowmeter information with a grain of salt especially if you're only looking at the top 2. For example, I raid as a tank and therefor the DPS gear that I get is the stuff that everyone else passes on. However, I was still able to get 5th on Freya hard mode. Does that mean that I had the mathematically superior spec, or am I just better than average at playing on AOE fights?

From my personal experience at the start of Ulduar, Rilak (who is very close to me on that Freya meter) raided as Blood/Unholy while I was raiding as Frost/Unholy. I would consistently outperform him even with the lower quality of gear. He then changed his spec to match mine, and he now outperforms me as someone in his gear should. Therefor, based solely on personal experience I would conclude that a Frost sub spec is superior.

Also, don't discredit the DPS that your ghoul gains from Ghoul Frenzy. Do the same boss fight with someone that doesn't have Frenzy, and the damage difference in ghoul melee is more than negligible.

 

dr_AllCOM3

I don't think we really need to test UB. Just take the DC damage and add 30% plus the glyph. Since it's supposed to work like Deep Wounds or Ignite, the dot is just a decorative icon to look at and the damage can easily be calculated through DC. That is if I'm not vastly mistaken.

As Blood I never even get close to having any threat issues. Your ghoul is like a threat reduction ability anyway.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Bloody_sorcerer

The only thing I'm curious about with the new UB is whether or not the DoT damage benefits from the Glyph of Dark Death or not, but I haven't been able to copy over yet to find out. I'd be surprised if it didn't, but you never know...

 

Alyse

The glyph of Dark Death increases the damage of death coil by 15%. Unholy blight adds 30% of the damage done by death coil over 10 seconds. Thus, 30% of that 15% damage increase to death coil should also be included into unholy blight, ie. 4.5% more damage done via unholy blight.

 

Melchior

If it is an issue (or you just want to pull more AoE damage without killing yourself), just move points from Necrosis into Subversion (3/10/58). I ran that for a while (I actually pulled all of Necrosis for 2/2 IUP as well) and it still seems to outperform 12/0/59. Black Ice is a very strong talent.

Edit - I just realized that was before the T7 nerf (sorry I haven't played UH in a while). Pretty sure 12/0/59 is actually better if you are grabbing Subversion w/ T8.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

Lujaar

Death and decay may not be just for AoE anymore. The nerf to scourge strike and the jump in iLvl going into the Coliseum may make DnD outscale scourge strike.

Assume 7k AP raid buffed, 40% melee crit, 30% spell crit, and a Voldrethar. Ignore shadow damage multipliers (EP and Black Ice) because they should affect SS and DnD equally.

Scourge Strike should hit for:

880.5 average weapon damage
+ 1650 = 2530.5 (bonus damage from AP, 7000 * 3.3 / 14)
* 0.4 = 1012.2 (scourge strike weapon damage multiplier in 3.2)
+ 357 = 1369.2 (scourge strike bonus damage)
* 1.2 = 1780 (3 diseases, 10% each)
* 1.63388 = 2908.3 (bonus damage from crits, with Vicious Strikes and the meta)
* 1.2 (Outbreak)
= 3490 damage.



Death and Decay should hit for:

62 base damage
+ 399 = 461 (bonus damage from AP, w/ Impurity; coefficient before Impurity is 0.0475)
* 1.159 = 534.3 (bonus damage from crits; last I checked, DnD only crits at 150% for some reason)
* 1.2 = 641.2 (DnD glyph; if you're using DnD, presumably it's worth glyphing)
*10 (ten ticks per cast)
= 6412 damage.


These aren't even BiS Coliseum numbers. 7k raid buffed AP and iLvl 239 weapons are within reach now, and with the SS nerf, DnD already deals more damage than 1.5 scourge strikes. You could analyze this better by comparing SSx2 vs DnD+PS, but that's making some assumptions about rotations which we're not sure of yet.

I don't think using DnD on single targets will be worth it right away in 3.2. At 7k AP with a Voldrethar, the gain barely offsets the loss of a major glyph slot. Our AP is going to go up a ton in Coliseum gear though and DnD scales so well with AP that it may eventually pull ahead.

 

Sylari

Interesting, but to be more fair, shouldn't you also add the blood strike damage that you're losing, as well as the .375 of a deathcoil that SS + BS damage has over DnD? ( 30 RP from SS + BS vs 15 from DnD alone )

and admittedly I don't know how to effectively model the loss of the SS glyph either.

 

Lujaar

That's why I was comparing DnD to 1 and 1/2 scourge strikes. If you're DnDing every 20 seconds, you're effectively losing a death rune, not a blood rune. It isn't a particularly exact comparison because 3.2 hasn't been on PTR long and there's no way to know what to compare it to. Desolation and the buff to BS may shake up unholy rotations a bit, or they may not, who knows.

You are right about the runic power though. Mostly my point is that DnD is a lot closer to being a viable single-target ability, and there should be an AP point of inflection where it becomes better than SS spam. Maybe we'll hit that AP passively, maybe only with procs, maybe never, but it'd be worth figuring out once we have more 3.2 info.

 

Searix

You bring up an interesting point, with two or three procs in current ulduar gear, shouldn't DnD already be pulling ahead, since the damage it does is based on when it's cast?

Edit: Quick napkin numbers: Doing 407 damage x10 ticks with no procs, Greatness + Unholy Strength + Pyrite proc brought it to 710 per tick, both without DnD glyph, and not counting crits.

 

• frmorrison

Ignoring the BS 5% buff uptime issue, bosses sometimes have to be moved (to get out of the bad fire and Blizzard hates to have people standing in one place the whole time), so PBAoE like DnD can be weaker than SS.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Jesabelle

Hey all,

I wanted to share some numbers I got off the PTR. I was focusing mostly on Unholy Blight Damage and the glyph. Here are a couple of samples via WWS:

All Tests done with a 0/10/61 spec. These numbers are using 4 Piece T7, but I've also run them with 4 Piece T8. Since I'm mostly focusing on the ration of Death Coil to UB, it shouldn't matter (since we're just getting more DC's in this data). The only other change from the gear in my armory is I believe I had my SotVH on for these tests.

This is without the UB Glyph (Dark Death/Scourge Strike/Ghoul)
Interesting thing to note, and consistent with other tests I've run (just don't have wws data for) is Unholy Blight is doing 35% of the Death Coil Damage. Dark Death Shouldn't affect this, so it's either a tool tip error/bug or talents.

This is with the UB Glyph (Dark Death/Unholy Blight/Ghoul)
Here we see Unholy Blight jump up to 50% of Death Coil's Damage. Again, all other tests support this data. These are just samples that show what I'm seeing overall.

As far as how I tested, yes this was all done on a target dummy, however the target dummy was never at 1 HP. The dummy in stormwind seems to reset quite often and has been really useful for testing. I plan to keep testing. I'll do some more runs with Awareness and without the Dark Death Glyph to look at some more numbers, but I can only stare at a target dummy so long =P

I'm hoping those of you who are better at theory craft math than me can make use of this!

Interesting notes: As far as the Unholy Blight copy bug, I've run into it myself on one of my copies. However if you respec out of UB and then copy, you won't have any issues. Also, for PVP ramifications, Unholy Blight is apparently not cleansable.

 

NeuroMedivh

I have a weird bug on the PTR. I'm missing a talent point, AND I still seem to have the old Desecration V talent, as my plague strikes are causing the old effect (ground effect, snare, and +5% dmg). I also have the UB bug. Makes it nearly impossible to test with my main.

I'll try a premade I guess, hope there's plenty of enchants and such to choose from.

 

NeuroMedivh

After testing with a Premade, I have come to several conclusions.

1) The new Sigil is completely OP. Any DK who expects it to go live in it's current form is delusional.

2) Blood Strike is averaging about 75-80% of Scourge Strike, and that's with barely any ArP. 2xBS is far superior to a SS, especially since you can save the three talent points in Reaping.

3) I tried several times to abuse BS + 3 diseases, but no matter how I stack the talent points, there's no good way for a build to go deep enough into both blood and unholy to be effective. My current best DPS performance has been 17/0/54, with a rotation of PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-SS-BS-BS-SS (with RP dumps as necessary). A 51/13/7 Blood build was almost the same in DPS, however I wasn't using the ghoul for my Unholy test (nor any cooldowns) so I suspect Unholy is still better.

I've also gotten comparable results from a 3/10/58 build. The advantage of this build is the IUP and DnD, which I had to cut for the 17/0/54. More testing is required though.

 

Khaosknight

Are you sure it would work like that? my understanding is that the DoT would use this equation [[DC base +.25 APC](1.3)(1.1)(1.1)(1.05)](.3)

Or basically DC base + all the talent modifiers, multiplyed by .3 would equal your damage done by the DoT, assuming a non-crit.


Basically, It would be yet another double dipping talent.

 

Melchior

It's a bit like Necrosis in that it doesn't actually calc anything outside of the DC input that triggered it. At least, that's what I've seen so far.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

keebz

Hello,

My current spec is 3/11/57 as opposed to 3/10/58 (not PTR). It's working quite well, but I don't see the need for Lichborne (figured I could use it for off-tanking in instances but I have the human racial Every Man for Himself). I want to know if it would be good to move the point in Lichborne to Necrosis, AND take the 2 points from Dirge and move them to Necrosis as well. I am just concerned if 3/5 Necrosis would give me that big of an increase. I definitely want to spec out of Lichborne so I can have at least 1/5 Necrosis, but will the 4% increase in auto-attacks (white damage) be that helpful? Any thoughts?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9767

By the way, the 3/10/58 spec is definitely very good in terms of DPS and it isn't listed in the original post.


Thanks

 

Griefpb

I'd like to see a link to your 3/11/57 spec to see what your talking about a little better, but I will try my best to help you.
1. Yes, get rid of lichborne as soon as possible, it has 0 dps benefits.
2. Never take points out of dirge it is one of our best points in the tree.
3. The order of dps benefit is BCB > Necrosis > Morbidity so move points around as you see fit.
4. IUP and epidemic are 2 talents you can also play around with point wise, I personally have 1/2 on epidemic but full IUP.

I hope this helps you out, and as far as not having the 3/xx/xx spec listed on the front page its been discussed in this thread before that if you are having threat problems with the 00/10/61 spec to move points into subversion otherwise it is a dps loss over other talents.

 

Dash

Is this still going to be the case in 3.2? Won't the 3.2 unholy blight do more damage with Morbidity as well?

 

Yubble

I don't think UB will double dip from anything - it'll simply do 30% of whatever your DC hits for. If you have things that modify your DC damage, such as Dark Death, then your DC hits harder, and thus your UB ticks for more.

So I believe he was correct in his 4.5% damage increase to UB from DD glyph. It's not double dipping - it's based solely off of DC damage.

 

Griefpb

Yes what I posted was in reply to someone asking about his 3.1 build. In 3.2 I have a feeling it's going to be morbidity > bcb > necrosis.

 

Melchior

Bear in mind BCB appears to be doing 31.25% per disease on the PTR (testing being done in the Blood DPS thread), so I'm not sure BCB's position is going to change.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

NeuroMedivh

Right now, DKs on the ptr have so many issues that it's nigh-impossible to do any meaningful testing. First, any Unholy DK transfering to the test realm will be missing a talent point (which is stuck in UB, but the it's the OLD UB), and they will have a permanent old-style Desecration V talent. That's on top of the fact that Blood Strike is set at 50% per disease (which, according to the patch notes, is supposed to be 25% now), which skews any testing of rotations.

Hopefully it'll all be fixed in the next PTR build.

 

Metaknight

Looks like Unholy Blight went down from 30% to 20%. Unholy Single target wasn't out of line by any means, so I assume this nerf was based on Blood DKs abusing it in the 50/0/21 spec.