It was weaker than DRW still, so I dunno. Possibly due to 0/17/54 ridiculous DC spam builds.

At the moment, Desolation does not appear to be working for me on the PTR. Makes testing a bit of a pain =T

This seems to be a very buggy build. People are claiming that shaman nature's swiftness and priest inner focus buffs are lasting forever and pulling over 10k DPS on target dummies. it's kind of amusing, but hopefully we can get a fixed patch to do some real testing soon.

I can confirm that Dirge and Glyph of Scourge Strike don't work either.

Wow seriously? Nothing works, I was hoping to hop on soon and get some testing in!

Anyone got any thoughts on using UB and Dark Death glyph instead of the SS glyph?

It was discussed but no one came to any conclusions, or is the PTR too buggy right now for real testing?

An easier way to get the same result:
Denote by E[T] the expected number of SS in your cycle.
Now, consider the time you start your cycle.

If your first proc is on your first SS, then you're back "as if" at the beginning of the cycle, and your expected cycle duration after the cycle will still be E[T]. This means that the full cycle duration will be 1+E[T], with probability 0.25.
Similarly, if your first proc is on your second SS, you get a duration of 2+E[T], with probability 0.75*0.25.
Same goes for the first proc on the third or fourth SS...
If you don't proc at all, then your cycle duration is 4, and that happens with probability 0.75^4.

This leads to the equation:


Solving it (with variable E[T]) leads to the result E[T] = 8.641975309, unless I'm mistaken.

I don't know where the small difference comes from.

Hi there, i recently played with some numbers to see if obliterate can be an interesting way of dps for unholy.
It seems that SS is > to OB in 3.1, main reasons are that SS proc desecration and an OB build cannot be a derivation of the 12/0/59 spec witch is a little > to 0/10/61 dps wise.
But with the nerf to SS in 3.2, will it still be the case ?

I believed that it was already calculated somewhere in this forum, but didn't find any precise information about it, so i did it myself.

Be careful as this post will be quite long, with a lot of data to check some game mechanics before doing the actual calculations.


1) Objectives

We want to compare an OB UH build to a SS UH build.
This comparison must be done for both 3.1 and 3.2 game version, with or without the 4pt8 bonus.
The 2 builds i will compare are : this one as OB build and this one as SS build


2) Preliminary comparison

We have to check if the 2 specs can be a base for comparison. An OB spec which would lose a straight 10% dps via talents is obviously useless to test, we don't want to loose our time.
The SS build is a standard one, so we just pick up the differences between the SS and the OB builds.

With the OB build we loose :
- Outbreak, which become an useless talent anyway if we don't use SS, we loose 30% damage on PS, a 0.5-0.7% dps decrease
- 2 points in Necrosis, which is a small 1-1.5% dps decrease in Unholy
- Scourge Strike, obviously
- the UB glyph in 3.2, currently a 1% dps decrease, or the SS glyph in 3.1, an unknown dps decrease, but we'll considere it to be a 1-2% dps decrease
- in 3.1, we loose 8-9s uptime of desecration, if not more in case of an encounter involving a lot of moves, so a 2% to 3% dps decrease.

But we gain :
- 3% crit on OB/BS/PS, which should represents a <1% dps increase
- Subversion, a +9% crit on OB and BS. Compared to Vicious strikes, it's a +3% crit for OB and +9% for BS, so if OB does the same damage as SS, we still are in the <1% dps increase range, but we have for sure a -25% threat

Conclusion : in 3.1, the OB spec must make up for a 4% to 5% dps decrease, which should explains why nobody use it. But in 3.2, the 2 specs seems quite comparable. The OB build just have to make up for less than a 2% dps decrease.


3) Checking in-game mechanics

In 3.1 :
- SS is 0.45*wpd + 357.2 with 11% more damage per disease
- OB is 0.80*wpd + 467.2 with 12.5% more damage per disease

In 3.2 :
- SS is 0.40*wpd + 317.5 with 10% more damage per disease
- OB is 0.80*wpd + 467.2 with 12.5% more damage per disease

We have to check if in-game numbers perfectly match the theory.

I will check the numbers on PTR, and considere that if we know how to calculate on it, there is no reason that the mechanics changed from live (for example the OB glyph is believed to behave the same way).
Setup on PTR : 3684 AP with a Large Club doing 4-6 damage (5 average damage or 1.6dps), 17.54% arp, the 4pt8 bonus, in UP, on a lvl 80 dummy target to avoid partial resists for SS, and on a lvl 83 fo OB
weapon damage = wpd = 3684 / 14 * 3.3 + 5 ~= 873,37
boss_armor = 10643 - 17.54/100 * (10643+15232.5/3) ~= 9130,15
adrm = armor damage reduction multiplier = 1 - 1 / (15232.5 / boss_armor + 1) ~= 0,62524

First of, while checking numbers in game, i found that the OB glyph behave in an additive way. It adds 20% damage to the 80%, so it's a 100/80 = 25% damage increase.
I will spare you the calculation and test to determine how it works exactly, so here are the results :
The OB glyph increase the base damage of OB without disease by 25%. The bonus doesn't apply any damage increase to the disease bonus.

no disease :
Theory :
SS = (0.4*wpd + 317.5) * 1.2{Outbreak} * 1.1{Black Ice} ~= 880,24
OB = (0.8*wpd + 467.2) * 1.25{glyph} * adrm ~= 911
In game : avg SS hit = 880 and avg OB hit = 911, it perfectly matches

ff and ep up :
Theory :
SS = (0.4*wpd + 317.5) * (1+0.1*1.2*2){2 diseases} * 1.2{Outbreak} * 1.1{Black Ice} * 1.13{Ebon Plaguebringer} ~= 1233,39
OB = ((0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25{glyph} + 0.125*1.2*2{2 diseases}) * adrm ~= 1129,9
In game : avg SS hit = 1233 and avg OB hit = 1130, it perfectly matches again

ff, bb and ep up :
Theory :
SS = (0.4*wpd + 317.5) * (1+0.1*1.2*3){3 diseases} * 1.2{Outbreak} * 1.1{Rage of Rivendare} * 1.1{Black Ice} * 1.13{Ebon Plaguebringer} ~= 1488,03
OB = ((0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25{glyph} + 0.125*1.2*3{3 diseases}) * 1.1{Rage of Rivendare} * adrm ~= 1363,2
In game : avg SS hit = 1488 and avg OB hit = 1363, it still perfectly matches


4) Calculating the threshold to have OB do more damage than SS

We will get rid of global multipliers that affect both SS and OB (Rage of Rivendare)
c = average crit % in raid
adrm = armor damage reduction multiplier (the threshold)
We have 3% more crit for OB from the Subversion talent compared to Vicious Strikes. We will factor it in
crit multiplier for SS = 1-c + c*2.3*1.03{meta} = 1 + c(2.3*1.03-1) = 1+c*1.369
crit multiplier for OB = 1-(c+0.03) + (c+0.03)*2*1.03{meta} = 1 + (c+0.03)(2*1.03-1) = 1,0318+c*1.06

In a 3.1 raid environment without 4pt8 :
SS = (0.45*wpd + 357.2) * 1.33{3 diseases} * 1.2{Outbreak} * 1.13{Ebon Plaguebringer} * 1.1{Black Ice} * 0.94{average partial resist damage decrease} * (1+c*1.369){crit mul}
OB = (0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25{glyph} + 0.375{3 diseases}) * (1,0318+c*1.06){crit mul} * adrm
adrm = (0.45*wpd + 357.2) * 1.33 * 1.2 * 1.13 * 0.94 * (1+c*1.369) / (0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25 + 0.375) * 1.1 * (1,0318+c*1.06)
adrm = (0,839159244*wpd + 666,105959904) / (1,3*wpd + 759,2) * (1+c*1.369)/(1,0318+c*1.06)

In a 3.1 raid environment with 4pt8 :
SS = (0.45*wpd + 357.2) * 1.396 * 1.2 * 1.13 * 1.1 * 0.94 * (1+c*1.369)
OB = (0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25 + 0.45) * (1,0318+c*1.06) * adrm
adrm = (0,8808017328*wpd + 699,1608421248) / (1,36*wpd + 794,24) * (1+c*1.369)/(1,0318+c*1.06)

In a 3.2 raid environment without 4pt8 :
SS = (0.4*wpd + 317.5) * 1.30 * 1.2 * 1.13 * 1.1 * 0.94 * (1+c*1.369)
OB = (0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25 + 0.375) * (1,0318+c*1.06) * adrm
adrm = (0,72909408*wpd + 578,718426) / (1,3*wpd + 759,2) * (1+c*1.369)/(1,0318+c*1.06)

In a 3.2 raid environment with 4pt8 :
SS = (0.4*wpd + 317.5) * 1.36 * 1.2 * 1.13 * 1.1 * 0.94 * (1+c*1.369)
OB = (0.8*wpd + 467.2) * (1.25 + 0.45) * (1,0318+c*1.06) * adrm
adrm = (0,762744576*wpd + 605,4285072) / (1,36*wpd + 794,24) * (1+c*1.369)/(1,0318+c*1.06)

We now have the equations. adrm is the threshold above which OB does more damage than SS. It depends on the weapon damage, and the crit rating.
Because OB scales a lot better with the weapon damage, the more we do damage per hit, the better OB is
Because the SS crit rating multiplier is > to the OB one, the more crit we have, the worse OB is.

A simple damage multiplier value isn't really easy to make comparison with for gear, so we'll always convert it into an arp % value.
Formula :
arpp = armor penetration percent (from gear)
boss_armor = 10643 * 0.75{sunder & faerie fire} - arpp * (10643*0.75 + 15232.5)/3
adrm = 1 - 1 / (15232.5 / boss_armor + 1)
adrm = 1 - 1 / (15232.5 / (10643 * 0.75 - arpp * (10643*0.75 + 15232.5)/3) + 1)
arpp = - (15232.5 / (1 / (1-adrm) - 1) - 7982.25) / 7738,25

So now we just have to put some arbitrary weapon damage and crit% numbers.

Example :
Say we have an average of 7054 AP in raid with a 232,6dps 3.6 speed weapon (ulduar 25 standard gear, not bis)
Average wpd would be 7054/14*3.3 + 232,6*3.6 = 2500
An average crit% in raid with every buff is ~42%, but we'll take 39 because bosses have an hidden crit depression. So the base average crit for our SS is 39+6 = 45%
In 3.1 : arpp = 0,334219691 so OB will hit harder than SS if we have more than 33.42% armor penetration
In 3.1 4pt8 : threshold = 34,30%
In 3.2 : threshold = -6.82% so OB will always hit harder than SS
In 3.2 4pt8 : threshold = -6.82% same here, and we can see that with the 3.2 changes, SS and OB scale perfectly linearly independently of weapon damage and crit

But we said that OB hitting as hard as SS wasn't interesting, because we have to makeup for a 4-5% global DPS loss in 3.1, and a little less than 2% in 3.2

if SS is 20% of global damage, then to make up for a 4% dps loss, OB should hit 20% harder than SS. It only should hit 10% harder for a 2% dps loss.
We will simply calculate 2 new threshold : for 10% more damage and for 20% more damage
For this, we just have to take the previous adrm and multiply it by 1.1 or 1.2.
Results :
In 3.1 : thresh = 33.42% / thresh 10% = 57.66% / thresh 20% = 77.85%
In 3.1 4pt8 : thresh = 34,30% / thresh 10% = 58.46% / thresh 20% = 78.59%
In 3.2 : thresh = -6.82% / thresh 10% = 21.07% / thresh 20% = 44.31%
In 3.2 4pt8 : thresh = -6.82% / thresh 10% = 21.07% / thresh 20% = 44.31%


5) Conclusion

So the final results are quite interesting.
In 3.1, because you loose uptime on desecration, to makeup for an at least 4% dps decrease, you'll need nearly 80% average armor penetration. So the spec is not viable at all.
But in 3.2, if things stay the way they are now on PTR, you'll only need 20% armor penetration to have an OB build becoming better than a SS build. With 44% arp, you'll get a 2% global dps increase, if not more because BS will have a much bigger proportion in our total damage and it scales very well with arp.
Also, don't forget that OB scales better than SS with pure str gear, so we don't have to give up on this stat at all.

Final words : We know that OB scales better than SS with gear upgrades, and in 3.2, having a 2800 average weapon damage will be quite possible, so, the OB spec will definitly be the spec to go for unholy 2H if SS and OB stay the way they are.


Bonus : A table which shows the arp% necessary to have OB do 20% more damage than SS in 3.2 with various crit% and weapon damage (in raid) :

crit \ wpd	2200	2300	2400	2500	2600	2700	2800	2900	3000	3100	3200
40	44,14%	43,52%	42,93%	42,38%	41,87%	41,38%	40,92%	40,49%	40,07%	39,68%	39,31%
41	44,54%	43,91%	43,33%	42,78%	42,27%	41,78%	41,32%	40,89%	40,48%	40,09%	39,72%
42	44,93%	44,30%	43,72%	43,18%	42,66%	42,18%	41,72%	41,28%	40,87%	40,48%	40,11%
43	45,31%	44,69%	44,11%	43,56%	43,05%	42,56%	42,11%	41,67%	41,26%	40,87%	40,50%
44	45,69%	45,07%	44,49%	43,94%	43,43%	42,94%	42,49%	42,05%	41,65%	41,26%	40,89%
45	46,06%	45,44%	44,86%	44,31%	43,80%	43,32%	42,86%	42,43%	42,02%	41,63%	41,27%
46	46,42%	45,80%	45,22%	44,68%	44,17%	43,69%	43,23%	42,80%	42,39%	42,00%	41,64%
47	46,78%	46,16%	45,58%	45,04%	44,53%	44,05%	43,59%	43,16%	42,76%	42,37%	42,00%
48	47,13%	46,51%	45,94%	45,40%	44,88%	44,40%	43,95%	43,52%	43,11%	42,73%	42,36%
49	47,48%	46,86%	46,29%	45,74%	45,23%	44,75%	44,30%	43,87%	43,46%	43,08%	42,71%
50	47,82%	47,20%	46,63%	46,09%	45,58%	45,10%	44,65%	44,22%	43,81%	43,43%	43,06%
51	48,15%	47,54%	46,96%	46,42%	45,92%	45,44%	44,98%	44,56%	44,15%	43,77%	43,40%
52	48,48%	47,87%	47,30%	46,76%	46,25%	45,77%	45,32%	44,89%	44,49%	44,10%	43,74%
53	48,81%	48,20%	47,62%	47,08%	46,58%	46,10%	45,65%	45,22%	44,82%	44,43%	44,07%
54	49,13%	48,52%	47,94%	47,41%	46,90%	46,42%	45,97%	45,54%	45,14%	44,76%	44,39%
55	49,44%	48,83%	48,26%	47,72%	47,22%	46,74%	46,29%	45,86%	45,46%	45,08%	44,71%

Question: pertaining the way you calculated the comparison, what did you replace with armor penetration in terms of stats for the OB scaling evaluation?
What I mean is: you state that OB needs 20% armor penetration to pull even, but is that 20% ArP calculated considering the SS build will have the equivalent amount of stats in Str or Crit or Haste? Putting together 20% armor penetration isn't minor in terms of gear handling.

You only increase the weight of armor pen with an OB build, the str stat is more or less the same (a little > in fact), and the crit one is a little less important. Because of the new value of armor pen, you can virtually have a complete bis set with a total value > to a SS build one.
If you want to be sure of it, we should constitute a new bis item list with an OB build weighstat to be determinated, and compare it's theorical dps output with a SS build. The fact is that 20% armor pen is really easy to get, because you only need 12.31 rating per %.
To be honest, i don't think it worth the hassle, because things can change a lot before 3.2 goes live.

If you take the horde bis T8 for unholy from this topic, you can see that we already have ~12% arp. If you swap the feet for the melancholy sabatons, and the Comet's Trail trinket for the Mjolnir Runestone, you will loose nearly no dps, simply because you trade stats with a benefice (relatively to the items ilvl). But in the process, you have 2 less items to loot from algalon 25, and you stand at an average of 28% armor pen.

Don't forget that i compared a 3/13/55 OB build to a 0/10/61 SS build. I could have compared it to a 3/10/58 one, because threat could become an issue in 3.2, and i believe lots of dk will prefere having a -25% threat bonus via talents just to be peaceful minded.
3/10/58 is ~1% less dps than 0/10/61, lowering the armor pen cap to less than 10% to have an OB build > to an SS build.

Also, the conclusion from my previous post clearly states that OB > SS only on the current PTR, and the new items have a lot more amor pen than the ulduar ones. In fact it is greatly possible that the future bis t9 for unholy will already have nearly 20% armor pen.

This 3/13/55 Build seems quite interesting to me. I simulated it a couple of ours today with Kahories Dk Simulator and it constantly did 5-10% more dps than both Blood and Unholy(0/10/61 and 12/0/59) and scalingwise was something in between.
Though my build didnt include Reaping but had 5 Points Necrosis and as far as the simulation was concerned it did more DPS this way, which is pretty obvious since 2 BS > 1 OB in addition to the 2% dps from Necrosis.
In a real Encounter situation the 3/3 Reaping Build might have a slight advantage because of the 1 GCD less needed per rotation, but you could always use Unholy Presence for those situations.

Stat wise it showed me that ArP would be the second best stat after Str and slightly better than haste (had an APE of 1.6-2.0, depending on the rest of the stats).

The thing is, that Kahories Simulator doesn´t apply ArP to the ghoul. But i think i recall a Blizzard quote, that said they were implementing that pets get every stat from their owner. Anybody´s got a clue about that?

That was in the Warlock Q&A.

Bloodstrike Dmg for Unholy Specc went down (1,3k noncrit unbuffed for me, compared to 1,8k or so in the last PTR build)

=> Reaping should be a dps buff for 3/13/55 specc

Well it seems they completely reverted the Bloodstrike changes. Does same dmg on ptr as on live.

With SS being made weaker in 3.2 will we see a move from building as much SS as possable or will we see a more Obliv/BS playstyle. From what i have read currently in this post there has been alot of work being done on builds based around Obliv/BS with some interesting numbers, yet is SS dead ? I have not seen much discussion on SS builds has any one got some figures on SS builds either BI or Blood based specs (Such as 3.1 specs) are these still viable some 3.2 figures of these specs would be helpful.

I guess they found out that Frost DW was doing more or less as much damage as the other speccs without needing the BS "buffs".

In all honesty, the 10/15% nerf to FS damage wasn't gonna be balanced with BS.
Frost DKs throw anything between 5 and 7 FS each rotation, with the ability hitting/critting for 4k-12k at a 60% crit rate. That's an average close to 50k damage per rotation (2500 dps and onwards, if you consider FS used to be 35-45% of a Frost DK's dps depending on rotations). A 15% reduction is about 7500 damage. It was impossible to spread 7500 damage over 2 strikes every 20 seconds without creating DRM builds that chaingunned BS.

It's quite likely that the increased white damage from DWing and the disease buffs came to the rescue and brought the dps output to a status quo, and thus the BS changes were considered unnecessary. Frost 2h being nerfed and uncompetitive isn't a concern anymore apparently, so the tree is rebalanced with the extra white damage in mind and so on.

However, the BS buffs were meant to also compensate the SS nerfs, and that doesn't compute. Either they feel UH can sustain the DPS hit (and we're speaking of a loss over 5 strikes every 20 seconds, so once again, the BS buffs wouldn't have been enough) or there's more changes in store.

Two things I'm wondering now:

1. regarding Unholy, the specc isn't exactly dominating single target dps at the moment. The nerf is sensible, and I wonder if they are realizing how much.
2. regarding Frost, I wonder how they can't see with years of experience with Rogues that switching damage to white damage won't bring the burst dps down for a class with several snares and inbuilt WF. Also, considering the dps loss over KM that DW will get compared to Frost 2h, in order to stay "competitive" with the old specc the strike damage seems to be increased. What's the point of nerfing FS damage for the 2hander specc if then you give the class more white damage and more strike damage?

I'm currently having a difficult time trying to decide if 3/3 morbidity is better than 3/3 wandering plague in terms of single AND AOE DPS situations. I am currently running a 7/10/54 spec after having a headache of a time trying to decide on 0/10/61 or 12/0/59 after finally picking up 3pc conq and 1pc val for my T8 4pc. Mathematically, point for point, how does wandering plague and morbidity compare toe-to-toe?

Spec in question: The World of Warcraft Armory

Yes, I do not have IUP, but luckily my raid has another UhDK. Currently I have 2/3 morbidity and 3/3 WP but I try my best to min/max myself so it is something absolutely annoying me. Also, I have not seen serious 7/10/54 discussion in quite some time and I was curious with 25m Ulduar gear how it compares to cookie-cutter 12/0/59 or 0/10/61 mathematically or opinion wise on these boards. I saw the post earlier in the thread regarding this but it seemed quite a while ago and actually before the t7 nerf (I may be wrong).

IUP no longer gives a raid wide benefit, it's only a self 15% move speed in all presences and the reduced cooldown on runes in unholy presence.

I also would like to see a bit more discussion on the 7/10/54 (live) spec, I too have spec'ed for that as I prefer the reduced aggro combined with BI.

Exactly what I was looking for regarding morbidity vs. wandering plague. Looks like a respec to move one point is in order. I'm avoiding 10/61 and 12/59 a bit trying 7/10/54. On live I got some pretty good results tonight, but I am sure that was largely contributed to some very large upgrades I received the week prior. Going to do a full reset as 7/10/54 and next week 0/10/61 and see the difference (if noticable) and report back.

I noticed this tonight and was wondering how I missed those notes regarding the change to the raid wide IUP buff. How do you feel 7/10/54 is fairing for you? Also, if aggro was NOT an issue whatsoever, would you still be 7/10/54?

Just to list the gains/losses of using said spec, I'll throw out the differences in each spec.

The spec used is 7/10/54.
I'll only list the 0/10/61 here, perhaps another comparison could be done for the 12/0/59.

For the 7/10/54 build, the points in Morbidity can be moved as per preference. I enjoy the use of DnD, however.

Using the 7/10/54 build:

Gains:

Butchery - 0.4 RP/s
Subversion - 9% Crit to BS
2H Spec - 4% damage increase to all strikes/white damage.
0.6 threat modifier in blood/unholy presence (as opposed to 0.8 without Subversion).

Losses:

Ghoul Frenzy
IUP
4 points from either: Morbidity, Necrosis, or BCB (At least 2 points must go into either Morbidity or Necrosis).

Perhaps we could look at a few parses and compare the two specs? While I realize IUP and the threat reduction from subversion may not be the easiest thing to evaluate from looking at parse, it could give a general idea if either one is numerically more favourable.

Also, on a different topic, does anyone have AEP values for the T7/8 2/4pc bonuses? I seem to think Methods posted them somewhere, and yet I cannot find them anywhere.

Working off WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay(XT hard since he is, for most intents and purposes, a 8-10 minute Patchwerk for melee, just with the occasional running of a bomb), where I *am* 7/10/54, had I been 0/10/61 instead (with maxed Necrosis/Morbidity/BCB. Although IUP/GF are often taken at the expense of one of those three, IUP/GF are also difficult to quantify)...

I would have done 96.1538462% (100/104) of the damage I did do on all 2H moves which would have been -
32 194.8458 total damage lost on SS
23 990.4228 total damage lost on Autoattacks
6 023.923 total damage lost on Blood Strike
3 326.92304 total damage lost on BCB
3 095.69227 total damage lost on Plague Strike
Which comes out to a total of 68631.8069 damage (approximately 2% of my total damage, for those curious).

I would have also lost 211 (combat length - 526 seconds, 2rp/5 seconds) RP, which is 5.275 Death Coils. With an average DC of 5374 that would have been -
28 347.85 total damage lost on DC

Without Subversion, I would have had 5 of my crit Blood Strikes been normal Blood Strikes, which would have been -
~10 000 total damage lost on Blood Strike

So, for the investment of those 7 points in Blood, I essentially got 106 979.657 total damage.

If, instead, I had put those points into Unholy:

I would have gained 5/5 Necrosis, for a total of 124 750.2 damage, and factoring in partial resists at a rate of 5%, that comes to 118 512.69 total damage.

I would have gained 3/3 Morbidity (up from the current 2/3) for a total of 19 347.05 damage.

I already have 3/3 BCB, so no gain there.

So, for the investment of those 7 points in Unholy (assuming you max out Necrosis, BCB, and Morbidity, which only leaves you 1 floating point for IUP/GF), I would have gained 144 097.25.

End Result: That's a loss of 37 117.593 total damage going 7/10/54 instead of 0/10/61 on a sustained single target fight. That's a loss of approximately 71 dps or 1.02% of my total damage done. In return, you get the buffer that is 25% less threat.

Worth the trade off? You decide.

Also, worth noting, looking at the quick math, 0/10/61 pulls somewhat further ahead on AoE fights. To D&D/Pest/BB, you sacrifice SS/BS, which is where those 7 points in Blood give the main chunk of their dps boost. Your auto-attack damage, on the other hand, stays the same and unsacrificed on an AoE fight, and it is that auto-attack damage which makes 0/10/61 higher dps to begin with (in the form of Necrosis). Of course, it's probably on an "AoE fight" (Freya, Mimiron, Yogg, where adds are spawning and you are dpsing near immediately) where you get the most benefit from the threat reduction, but still. Food for thought.

Personally, I think I will be going back 0/10/61 myself, but I'll see after this week.

Disclaimer: Blah blah blah, one WMO is anecdotal, blah blah blah. Yeah, I get that. And I doubt my math was 100% perfect. I'm not saying this is the end all be all of 7/10/54 v 0/10/61 or any such thing. Just gives a sketch of the relative differences between the two specs in a realistic setting, as someone requested.

Edit - Completely unrelated to the spec debate, the UB change would actually have increased my single target damage (to the tune of a ~22,000 damage gain, when you factor in the new UB and the DCs gained from no longer having to 'apply' UB). Of course, it's still a huge loss on AoE fights, and not a pleasant nerf, but still, I figured with the 30 (42 glyphed) down to 20 (28 glyphed) UB, it was going to end up a bit weak single target as well. Guess I was wrong. If the disease buffs and the expertise ghoul change are enough to balance out the SS nerf, the patch won't be too bad. Of course, Blood will still have superior single target damage regardless, and Unholy's AoE advantage will be greatly reduced, but still.

Very interesting, and closer than what I expected really. Now, I have to ask if you are really over estimating the value of necrosis though? I just did four 1mill damage tests. Two with 7/10/54 and two with 0/10/61 and 7/10/54 was always a solid 330dps higher (lol dummies though). It was the ebon blade dummy in the middle. I suspect necrosis must not work right on dummies if your values for it are correct because according to my numbers it was only 0.2% of my damage done. A total of 1400-1450 each run. Now, the tooltip says an extra 20% as shadow, so maybe recount is adding this wrong. With the 7/10/54 I had 93 melee attacks connect for a total of 176k. The 0/10/61 95 attacks for 159k. Is recount really screwing this up and should I add an extra 20% damage to that melee damage?

edit: Just assumed an extra 20% damage to melee and it still didn't come out over 7/10/54 on the dummy. Does 0/10/61 scale better in a raid environment?

Another edit, after paying more attention the dummies in ebon blade definitely aren't counting necrosis.

Necrosis won't proc if it's "overkill". So if you were on the boss dummy and it was dead/at 1 health, yeah, you wouldn't have seen it. Otherwise, it's essentially a straight up 20% increase to your autoattack damage (slightly less due to partial resists, but only very slightly).

But, yeah, overall, 0/10/61 does scale better in a raid environment. If I go beat on a dummy, I might see 30-35% of my damage coming from SS, which is far higher than what I would actually see in a raid, not because SS does less damage in a raid (obviously not) but other abilities scale with raid buffs better.

Hopefully they undo the SS PTR nerfs. SS really is relatively weak at the moment, and hardly overpowered. What makes it strong in PvP and what is causing it to be nerfed is the fact that it's magical damage - a fact which works against it as much as for it in a raid environment, thanks to armor pen. Using Oblit instead, as math several posts above shows will be ideal, will be kinda sad, and just a statement on the state of things: SS needs to scale with raid buffs/gear better, somehow. It doesn't benefit from armor pen. It (obviously) doesn't benefit from haste. It has a smaller crit modifier than it's Blood/Frost counterparts. It benefits less from raw str. So on. Make it count the new UB debuff as a disease, maybe? Cause it to do physical damage and play with the numbers, yet allow Necrosis to proc from it, still seperating it from Oblit yet allowing it to benefit from ArP? Nerf the new UB number wise, but also allow SS to contribute to the dot? Many more ways one could go about fixing it, but something has to change, and not in the negative direction. Unholy is hardly anything special in single-target PvE, and nerfing it... just makes no sense.

Right. The reason you saw numbers for necrosis at all is because it hits for 1 damage if the dummy is at 1 hp, 2 damage if the dummy is at 2 hp, etc.

So, pretty much take your recount's melee damage and multiply that by 1.2 . In a raid, you'll be doing quite a bit more melee damage, considering your buffs and the boss's debuffs, upping your necrosis damage.

Also, did you add back in the benefit of 1 more pt in BCB when you added the 20% from necrosis?