I haven't seen any mention of this here, but my DC is only costing me 31 RP right now. I'm guessing the rune of Dark Death is the culprit, though its tooltip still says it's just damage increase. Has anyone else noticed this? Raiding right now, I will do some tests to see if I can isolate it later.
One possible explanation is that now your maximum runic power is 130. 40/130 = 0.3077
If your runic power viewer displays percentages instead of actual runic power it may feels like you are only spending 31 rp per Deathcoil.
Run speed has always been a rather large dps gain on any type of a fight where you break contact with the boss for any reason. Even if you ignore the benefit of using the better boot enchant, the 15% speed is going to easily produce more dps than 1% per point. This has been a known mechanic for melee classes for a long time, at this point I would venture to say that anyone who strongly disagrees with it should be the one to prove otherwise.
Sure. I placed myself 30 yards away from a target and ran at it. Without a run speed boost, I reached melee ranged in 5.2 seconds. 15% of 5.2 is .78. I had relatively normal latency (152 ms).
Every 30 yards I run without a run speed boost, I lose half a GCD. Every 60 yards I run, I lose a full GCD. Therefore, every 60 yards I spend running during a boss fight without a speed boost, I lose one GCD. A rough guess of my average GCD is 6-7k. This would only count when I am outside of melee range.
Razorscale- If tanks are grouping adds properly, the only time spent running would be going back to Razorscale after getting an Air Buffet once she's grounded for good. This is more than 30 yards, so along with general movement in this fight this is looking like one lost GCD.
Ignis- No.
Deconstructor- RNG based. On average I get hit with three bombs of some sort over the course of the Hard Mode segment. Three segments of 30 yards or so (from when the debuff disperses to the run back) means about 1.5 lost GCDs.
Kologarn- Unless you get gripped three times in one fight, this is a no.
Iron Council- Overload is about 20 yards or so, and doing it on Hard will only usually show you 1-2 Overloads. A loss of one GCD.
Auriaya- Each fear will probably cost 30 yards. Without totems and Lichborne, there's maybe 5-6 fears. This costs you three GCDs. Less if you have totems and 1-2 less fears with Lichborne.
Hodir- No, unless you're breaking out NPCs. This would cost roughly 60 yards per Flash Freeze, so one GCD per each.
Thorim- No.
Freya- If you're cutting down trees, you may lose 30 yards on average per tree. Every two trees is a lost GCD.
Mimiron- This would result in the most lost GCDs, with generally 20 yards lost per Shock Blast. I have limited experience on Hard Mode, but I understand that there is more opportunity for running around during the fight.
Vezax- No.
Yogg-Saron- Beneficial for the brain room moving from tentacle to tentacle and heading back to the brain. It's hard to say exactly how many are lost, but there's at least 3-4 GCDs lost per brain broom.
Algalon- No experience with this fight yet.
It looks like the two points in Imp Unholy Presence could go to Necrosis or Desolation. Necrosis is .2% DPS per point and Desolation seems to be relatively close to that at the moment. So if all those lost GCDs result in more than .4% of your damage done in Ulduar, then Imp Unholy Presence is better for you.
I'm going assume I lost 20 GCDs from no run speed during all Ulduar kills. I did a total of 20,084,236 damage in all Ulduar boss kills.
20,084,236 * .04 = 803,369.44 damage gained from Necrosis/Desolation
10*6500 = 65,000 damage gained from Imp Unholy Presence.
For me it seems not having those two points in Necrosis/Desolation would be a larger loss. I'm not going to assume my calculating was entirely accurate, and some might argue with my logic. But this is why Imp Unholy Presence is mostly a "feel-good" option for me. For some it might mean the difference between life and death during various fights, and in that case it's statistically better for them.
Yogg-Saron- Beneficial for the brain room moving from tentacle to tentacle and heading back to the brain. It's hard to say exactly how many are lost, but there's at least 3-4 GCDs lost per brain broom.
You're at the boss all the time with some smart strafing. It's very much like Hodir.
I switch my presence a few times a Yogg-Saron. It's a huge damage boost.
Uh, can you explain how you're using pestilence in your rotation? I must be missing something because for the life of me I can't figure how out you're using pestilence after using both blood runes, and why it would even make sense to use. There must be something I'm not getting.
When I do the rotation in that order, it is available without ruining the rotation. Obviously I would not be using pest in single battles only on multi-mob situations
Originally Posted by Melizande
I can only guess that (he) is using Glyph of Disease, which would just be such a waste of a Major Glyph.
On one hand, you'd get an extra obliterate, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't generate as much runic power, and what glyph could you possibly trade out for it? I can't imagine the benefit of fitting that glyph in would ever outweigh the cost.
I am not using Glyph of Disease. I am using the DarkDeath, Oblit, Ghoul majors.
Originally Posted by Vindice
I think he may just be talking about throwing in a pestilence to help AoE, like when Auriaya guardian swarms, or ice blocks on Hodir.
I *she btw* am talking about pest in AoE situations like Auriaya.
I think I might have figured out what the issue was, though until I get back to a fresh XT kill I wont be 100% positive and that wont be till the week of the 24th. I also must say, that really noticed the lack of iUP for the TotC raid. I may swap a couple points around like others have so that I can maybe up Necrosis and get one point in iUP
Iron Council- Overload is about 20 yards or so, and doing it on Hard will only usually show you 1-2 Overloads. A loss of one GCD.
You should be staying in for the overloads with AMS. The only gain here is running to new targets and back and forth movements if you like to run to nearby runes for DC and IT. But neither of these make any difference on the part of the fight that matters, Steelbreaker.
I think the primary use of the extra speed is to get yourself out of trouble when you need to run, such as getting away from Freya's bombs after being rooted. I know everyone else makes do without it, but it's that much more room for error. If you want to calculate this dps-wise, you could consider all fights where you died because you were under 15% too slow, and then determine the loss incurred because you were dead. This isn't going to be a perfect comparison though, leaving the talent a fairly personal choice.
Run speed has always been a rather large dps gain on any type of a fight where you break contact with the boss for any reason. Even if you ignore the benefit of using the better boot enchant, the 15% speed is going to easily produce more dps than 1% per point. This has been a known mechanic for melee classes for a long time, at this point I would venture to say that anyone who strongly disagrees with it should be the one to prove otherwise.
I don't think I've ever seen it argued (convincingly) that IUP is 1% DPS per point. Here's a very rough approximation: with 2/2 IUP, movement time is shortened by ~13%, so in order to make up 2% dps, 13% of your movement time needs to be 2% of your total dps time. That means you'd have to be moving 13.3% of the time, or eight seconds out of every minute. That's a pretty stunning claim to make about any fight in Ulduar.
Now, this calculation hand-waves over a number of things. For example, a lot of fights have movement time that isn't actually lost dps time, or comes at a reduced cost (being able to DC/IT while you close distance, for example), or moving out of plasma blast (are you really going to stay in for an extra half a second because you run faster?). On the other hand, not all GCDs are equal, and it's possible that your rotation will be interrupted just as your runes are coming off cooldown for a quick succession of three OBs and w/o runic power stored, making you lose more effective DPS than you might otherwise. On average, I don't think these effects will change the bottom line much.
Regardless, it's never going to be worth dropping powerful DPS talents like Necrosis/Desolation for IUP from a pure DPS perspective. IUP is certainly useful for a lot of fights, but in terms of raw DPS, it is never going to be better than the alternatives. The answer to "should I take IUP?" has never been "IUP is always correct"; rather, it's "IUP is a DPS loss but provides excellent utility, so decide for yourself if you need it."
All this discussion also ignores the difference between cat's swiftness/tuskarr's vitality and greater assault/icewalker, but certainly changing your boot enchant is a good way to get some movement speed at a smaller DPS cost.
Originally Posted by formina
It looks like the two points in Imp Unholy Presence could go to Necrosis or Desolation. Necrosis is .2% DPS per point and Desolation seems to be relatively close to that at the moment. So if all those lost GCDs result in more than .4% of your damage done in Ulduar, then Imp Unholy Presence is better for you.
Just a note, Necrosis/Desolation are closer to .8% dps per point, so two points in IUP is more like a 1.6% static dps loss. So in your calculation, you're looking at 4x more effective damage from necrosis/desolation dropping than you calculated. Alternatively, you could just look at all of your necrosis damage and count 40% of it for comparison (assuming you have 5/5 in the parse you're looking at).
You should be staying in for the overloads with AMS. The only gain here is running to new targets and back and forth movements if you like to run to nearby runes for DC and IT. But neither of these make any difference on the part of the fight that matters, Steelbreaker.
I think the primary use of the extra speed is to get yourself out of trouble when you need to run, such as getting away from Freya's bombs after being rooted. I know everyone else makes do without it, but it's that much more room for error. If you want to calculate this dps-wise, you could consider all fights where you died because you were under 15% too slow, and then determine the loss incurred because you were dead. This isn't going to be a perfect comparison though, leaving the talent a fairly personal choice.
I've always assumed Overload was closer to Shock Blast in damage and that AMS wouldn't save me. Is this true for all three phases (assuming Overload gets his damage buff)?
I mentioned the dying part in my last paragraph. I personally never died during that Ulduar run, and I can't remember the last time I died to some "run or die" boss attack. But because others do, the talent would be infinitely better for them.
Is there any way we could convince someone who is more competent with the simulations to assist in finding some stat weights for the 0/17/54 spec? I've tried numerous times with Kahorie's simulator, and yet every time it seems to overvalue expertise (over strength, which has traditionally always trumped expertise), and given me an odd negative value for some sort of stat. (200ms, 500/1000h lengths). I'm personally interested to see how ArP and Crit line up in comparison to the rest of the stats now, since SS used to do 230% on crits while OB will only be doing 200%, and since OB is now physical as opposed to SS' magic.
Here's a quick one I ran earlier today, 200ms but only 50h. I somehow don't think this is quite accurate though.
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 329
EP :Agility = 72
EP :CritRating = 111
EP :HasteRating = 101
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 12
EP :ExpertiseRating = 62
EP :HitRating = 309
EP :SpellHitRating = -45
EP :WeaponDPS = 597
EP :WeaponSpeed = 24675
EP :2T7 = 6101
EP :4T7 = 13389
EP :2T8 = 11525
EP :4T8 = 5084
EP :2T9 = 24067
h. I somehow don't think this is quite accurate though.
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 329
EP :Agility = 72
EP :CritRating = 111
EP :HasteRating = 101
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 12
EP :ExpertiseRating = 62
EP :HitRating = 309
EP :SpellHitRating = -45
EP :WeaponDPS = 597
EP :WeaponSpeed = 24675
EP :2T7 = 6101
EP :4T7 = 13389
EP :2T8 = 11525
EP :4T8 = 5084
EP :2T9 = 24067
Yeah, those can't possibly be right. ArP is only 0.12 AP a point? It was ~0.9 in 3.1, and should have gone up somewhere between 50% and 75% in value. Haste is 1.01? It was higher than that in 3.1, and should be unchanged. Expertise is only .62? It was higher than that in 3.1, and should have gone up (thanks to the ghoul benefitting). So on.
Despite numerous attempts with a variety of different gear sets, I can't get realistic EP values myself.
Originally Posted by Mortak
Well my APE Calculation ist unfortunatly screwd up for some stats. But it turned out to be something like this for me:
Was posted earlier, and stands to reason when you think about it (Str and haste should be unchanged, ArP goes from ~1 to ~1.8, and goes from affecting ~25-30% of our damage to affecting ~45-50%, crit goes down in value thanks to Obliterate's smaller crit modifier). For now, those are the numbers I'm using to judge my gear, at least until something more accurate can be calculated.
One possible explanation is that now your maximum runic power is 130. 40/130 = 0.3077
If your runic power viewer displays percentages instead of actual runic power it may feels like you are only spending 31 rp per Deathcoil.
That could possibly be it. I'm using IceHUD to track RP, so I'll have to see if it does percentages or absolute. I felt like I was getting a lot more DCs, but that is probably a result of CotG with IT.
UPDATE: Yeah you were right, it was my HUD showing percentage instead of absolute. In fact now I specifically recall thinking how convenient it was that I had 100 RP so my percentage readout would correlate to my actual RP. D'oh.
It's probably not that you need end-game gear, it's more likely due to the fact that in 3.1 most Unholy DKs de-emphasized ArP, and since the 0/17/54 uses Oblit, it benefits from ArP a lot more, so the EP values are different, thus your gear is not tuned for it.
If you had 3.1 Blood gear. you'd probably doing much better. Me, I'm in Unholy gear, so my dps is junk now. I love how they nerfed SS to compensate for the BS buff, then they revert the BS buff without removing the SS nerf.
12.5 * 3 = 37.5 * 20% = 7.5% more OB damage (and also some more from BS) - isn't?
Not to mention it is pointless to count as you will wear T9 anyway soon.
@NeuroMedivh: Actually it might very well be the fact that his gear isn't good enough too, since unholy has always been the spec that has been nicest on non-highend-gear. When it comes to unholy gear it should not at all be "junk" - when 3.2 hit I went DW frost (from unholy) and our other unholy stuck there and switched to 17/54, with only switching in 2 pieces with ArP on them he noticed a dps-increase of 4-500 on most bosses.
About the 4pt8 you could just do the math. It's 20% of 12.5% which puts it on 15% x3 = 7.5% more dmg from obliterates. Looking at a parse I see Obliterate seems to vary between 14-20% of 17/54s damage, let's say an average of 17.5% and it's ~18.8% which is an increase of 1.3%. How much that actually is worth I leave to someone else since I just woke up and don't feel like further exploring it atm.
Edit @Fugazor: It's hardly even remotely pointless. I'm not sure how you plan to wear T9 "soon"? You do realize it's 50/75 triumphs + a token for ONE piece until you get to the hard modes (minimum 5 weeks) and can get the pieces just for the token (that goes for every class, and therefore will be kind of annoying to gather).
I have to question how your average SS is possibly 7k? Using 2hsetstat2 (which is higher stat wise than your own gear, if that's what you're using) and flipping on 2pt7/2pt8, I'm getting no where close to your numbers. Even if I plug in better gear, SS is still just chilling in the mid-4k's.
Your other numbers all seem a bit on the high side, but it's mainly your SS I'm questioning. A 2.5k damage gap is kinda huge.
Yeah, that still doesn't make sense. Did you put your buffed stats into the character page? If so, the simulator has a tab where you can already check off raid buffs, so you would essentially be double-dipping raid buffs, which would explain the inflated numbers. Otherwise, I still can't see how you're getting those numbers.
Using my set (which is better than yours), your set, one of the built in sets, whatever, I just can't reach that sort of SS. As well, 7300 dps with your gear (not to make fun of your gear or anything, certainly not, but it is far from BiS) as Unholy SS or Unholy Ob is very high and not something I can get to repeat.
I don't mean any of this to be critical, I'm just really curious how you got those numbers. God knows I would love nothing more than SS to be viable again, but I just can't get it to happen - in the simulations or in game. And if you can, that's something I want to know how ^^
Ah, that explains everything. I see what you did wrong =p.
Two mistakes:
1) This is a small one, and actually in your favor, but your expertise is incorrect. For expertise rating, you want to put your expertise rating (from gear), not your actual expertise. Looking at your armory, this should be 157.
2) This is a big one, and what is probably screwing up the results. For your AP you put your total unbuffed AP - 3807. This is not right. What you are supposed to put in this field is simply your AP from gear (raw AP from gear, not AP from strength on gear or any such thing). How you see this number is simply by hovering over your AP on your character page either in game or on the armory, and it will say in parenthesis X + Y. That second number, which should be in green, is what you want. Looking at your armory, it's 593.
That should make things much more realistic, and explains a lot.
Just to clarify rotation priority for 0/17/54, since there seems to be sims prioritizing strikes over deathcoils and vice versa:
Are we taking every opportunity to Death Coil at the expense of strikes? Or are we still treating Death Coil as a lowest-priority (IE when your runes are on CD) attack?
From my understanding of the simulator rotation you Death Coil when runes are on cooldown or if you are max runic power (or maybe about to max runic power).
On an aside, since i've started trying out 0/17/54 i've been having an odd bug where after I obliterate with death runes the blood runes are not refreshing properly. When the blood runes refresh my client will only let me use one of the blood runes to blood strike, the second blood rune will show available but won't let me do anything with it for a while. I can't seem to effectively reproduce this, it just randomly happens.
08/07/09, 7:53 PM
