[Sigil of Virulence] has an 80% proc rate with a mere 10 second internal cooldown. On my Lord Jaraxxus kill last night, the buff had a 95% uptime. That's the equivalent of a passive 190 strength - simply incredible. As Alyse's sims show, it is a pretty substantial dps upgrade, especially when you consider the relatively cheap cost. It is clearly over SotVH in a raid setting.
@syntaxsmurf: Bandit's Insignia is still better unless you actually need all of the hit from Grim Toll (which your armory shows you do not).
@ Xilena: Yes, Unholy Blight is worth it. One talent point for 2-3% of your dps (it should be more like 3-4%, but still) is pretty incredible. That's better than a point in Bone Shield, in Necrosis, in Desolation, in Ghoul Frenzy, in Black Ice... in almost anything. It's excellent.
As well, yes, Chill of the Grave is worth it. The two points in Icy Talons are utterly wasted, as you say, but you have to spend them to move down the tree, and CotG makes it all worthwhile. With CotG you generate 150 RP/20 seconds instead of 125RP/20 seconds. In other words, this is essentially a 20% increase in the number of DCs you throw (and, subsequently, in the amount of damage your UB deals). If you're Death Coil and Unholy Blight account for about ~20% of your total damage, that's 4% for those 4 talent points. 1% dps per point is better than Necrosis (which is ~0.7-0.8 dps/point), Desolation (which is ~0.8-0.85 dps/point). Wandering Plague is a better investment, yes, but you should be getting Wandering Plague even with CotG. Wandering Plague is amazing and you should be getting it already. Take the 3 points for it out of Necrosis and/or Desolation, both of which are much weaker than WP (and CotG).
I bought the the new sigil before last night's raid and went totally bananas with it. What i do is hit Blood Tap before a pull this way i can open with one quick Obliterate to get the Buff going combined with any other procs then i apply diseases.
I am confused by the necessity for Blood Tap as well, I open with IT, PS, and can either OB or BSx2 then OB OB, I'm not certain why you think it's necessary to Tap to get a death rune... Generally I have IT PS BS BS OB OB (RP dump when strikes arent up or when I'm close to going over the cap) ERW, Summon Gargoyle, Rune Tap when my red runes are down for a BS (This causes BOTH red runes to become death runes) and then OB OB OB. I'm generally #1 or #2 on DPS depending on the fight, possibly a bit lower depending on the nature of the fight.
So far I'm really enjoying 0/17/54, I have yet to try out the Sigil of Virulence but I did recently acquire Vengeful Heart and seeing 10k Deathcoils makes me laugh out loud.
Edit: This was intended to be a reply to a post on the last page.
1) I picked up my [Sigil of Virulence] today and did some dummy testing with it. The 10 sec ICD and 80% proc rate appeared to completely accurate, and resulted in 100% uptime for me over a normal DPS rotation up to 100 obliterate uses (about 8 mins 20 secs). Haven't tested it in a raid scenario yet, but 200 str almost passively is keeping my hopes high!
2) Pertaining to the confusion about starting a rotation with blood tap - I am not convinced that there is any possible use of using blood tap before a pull. However, I found a little trick that might be what the person who brought it up was actually talking about. Boss pull, run in and do the following rotation:
BS -> Blood Tap -> OB -> PS -> IT -> OB.
Basically as Defyapathy said, when you BS with one blood rune active and one just used for blood strike, it refreshes the just used rune and changes the still active rune to a death rune! I guess this means the code for the ability actually performs the two operations of refreshing and changing a rune state completely separately.
This replaced an normal initial rune usage of PS -> IT -> OB -> BS -> BS or blood strikes first if that's your preference. The replacement means that desolation will be active for half your first rotation, and there is an 80% chance that the Virulence proc will also be up. Is this a DPS increase? I'm not even going to bother doing the math on that because the first half-rotation of an entire fight isn't going to affect overall damage significantly.
However, this suggests a much larger scope application of this trick. Every minute, Blood Tap will be up. When it is and you have your two blood runes up, you can use this trick again, allowing one blood strike and and one obliterate. However your next half-rotation will use two blood runes, so it doesn't perform a complete replacement of BS/BS ---> BS/BT/OB. Let's take a look at the result on a time chart, first showing just a single rotation and then the long term ramifications. (I'm just going to use a regular rotation starting with diseases)
0.0 : PS (15 RP)
1.5 : IT (30 RP)
3.0 : BS / BT (50 RP)
4.5 : OB (75 RP)
6.0 : OB (100 RP)
7.5 : DC (60 RP)
9.0 : DC (20 RP)
10.5 : Horn (30 RP)
12.0 : OB (55 RP)
13.5 : DC (15 RP)
15.0 : OB (40 RP)
16.5 : BS (50 RP)
18.0 : BS (60 RP)
Looks good, managed to fit in the entire rotation including horn with minimal clipping.
Long term, I'm going to go a bit inaccurate and say lets assume that you use your blood/death runes exactly every 10 seconds regardless of the phase of the rotation you're on.
0 : BS / BT / OB
10 : BS / BS
20 : OB
30 : BS / BS
40 : OB
50 : BS / BS
60 : OB (blood tap comes back up but we're on an oblit rotation)
70 : BS / BT / OB
80 : BS /BS
90 : OB
100 : BS / BS
110 : OB
120 : BS / BS
130 : OB (blood tap comes back up but we're on an oblit rotation)
140 : BS / BT / OB
150 : BS / BS
160 : OB
170 : BS / BS
180 : OB
190 : BS / BS
200 : OB (blood tap comes back up but we're on an oblit rotation)
210 : BS / BT / OB
....
Sorry for drawing that out so far, but I wanted to bring out the pattern that on a one minute cooldown, blood tap can only be used effectively for this method every 70 seconds because of how the rotation works out. So, every 70 seconds you get: 1x BS / BT / OB, 3x OB, and 3x BS / BS. Using a standard rotation you simply alternate between BS / BS and OB so 70 seconds can't accurately make a comparison, lets double it to 140 seconds.
At 140 seconds here is what we come out with :
Standard Rotation : 7x OB, 7x BS / BS = 7 Oblits and 14 Blood Strikes
New Rotation : 2x BS / BT / OB, 6x OB, 6x BS / BS = 8 Oblits, 14 Blood Strikes, and a Blood Tap (10 RP)
So that's a pretty clear DPS increase by one obliterate and 10 runic power every 2 mins 20 seconds.
Keep in mind that on fights longer than 5 minutes, you'll have to use a Blood Tap to refresh bone shield at some point instead of for this rotation. This rotation is slightly more GCD intensive than the standard rotation and does cause a small amount of clipping on rune usage... but I think the two second grace period for rune use prevents this from having any effect.
If anyone sees anything wrong with what I have here let me know.
Hello guys, I don't know if this will fit better into this thread or simple questions/answers... anyways,
With the new OB build does it change anything in terms of the minimum hit rating required. I would like to drop some hit and pick up some more ArP, but I don't know how low I can go on the hit. The question I'm asking is what is the minimum lowest hit rating I can operate at, or what is the suggested hit rating with the new OB build?
I did some simulations 2 weeks back regarding 3/13/55 vs. 0/17/54.
While 0/17/54 was 150 dps ahead with the DC sigil, 3/13/55 pulled within 50dps when using Sigil of Virulence (asuming 100% uptime).
So yes, with the new sigil 3/13/55 seems much more attractive.
Heya. I finally had enough badges to purchase Sigil of Virulence so I went and purchased it. Now I am itching for 3/13/55 instead of 0/17/54.
Unfortunately there aren't many 'single-target' fights in Ulduar for me to gauge the breakdowns of a fight, but looking at the parses of XT Heartbreaker as well as Steelbreaker last, one might notice that the categories of "Melee", "Obliterate", and "Death Coil" come down to 20-21% fairly evenly. In fact sometimes OB and Melee pull ahead just a little.
Now with Sigil of Virulence coming into play, adding +200 strength with near 100% up time in a raid environment, I have to wonder if 3/13/55 would perform better. Adding 9% crit chance to both OB and BS, in addition to having one more point in Necrosis - over having two filler points in the Frost tree that would be otherwise 0/17/54.
I haven't seen any number weights yet for the new unholy build, does anyone have some rough numbers to go on? Its probably close to the old numbers of 0/10/61
If you look back a page to post #1170 darkmoone is putting out some impressive DPS with only 2 items that have ArP on them, this leads me to believe that ArP might not be as important as we think it is.... or maybe it is and he would have done even more dps with more ArP I am not sure, also if you take a look at his fight recaps his "melle" dmg is at the top followed by deathcoil, then obl. Is it me or is that really odd that a 2H spec has melle dmg as the top dmg output.
I haven't seen any number weights yet for the new unholy build, does anyone have some rough numbers to go on? Its probably close to the old numbers of 0/10/61
If you look back a page to post #1170 darkmoone is putting out some impressive DPS with only 2 items that have ArP on them, this leads me to believe that ArP might not be as important as we think it is.... or maybe it is and he would have done even more dps with more ArP I am not sure, also if you take a look at his fight recaps his "melle" dmg is at the top followed by deathcoil, then obl. Is it me or is that really odd that a 2H spec has melle dmg as the top dmg output.
The statweights are still roughly the same, except ArP has become more valuable. So we should expect good performance even with gear tailored for the 0/10/61, but we should expect even better performance with some more focus on ArP.
Stat weights are only (roughly) the same in regards to Str, Haste, and Hit. ArP, Crit, and Expertise are all decently changed.
ArP greatly increased with value, since our main strike now benefits. It should be between 1.5 and 2, although a more accurate value hasn't yet been determined. Probably slightly above haste now, and the best "secondary" stat after hit/exp.
Crit moderately decresed with value, since Obliterate Unholy does not have an extra crit modifier.
Expertise moderately increased with value, since pets now benefit.
Also, even with Virulence, 0/17/54 edges 3/13/55 out by ~50 dps, approximately. Although the gap is obviously much smaller, there is still a gap, and for maximum dps, you won't yet want to respec. Once you drop two piece tier 8, then 3/13/55 becomes about equal (or better, depending on other gear). Unfortunately, you won't really do that until you get four piece tier 9, so that's a ways off for most people.
Are you sure that pets benefit from player's expertise? From my understanding, if the player is hit caped, then the pet is exp and hit caped.
That is correct. From the patch notes:
All pets now receive 40% of their master's resilience and 100% of their master's spell penetration. In addition, if a player is at their appropriate spell hit chance or hit chance maximum, their pet will be at the maximum for spell hit chance, hit chance, and expertise. If they are below the maximum, their pet will be proportionately below those maximums.
I want to point out that patch 3.2.2 was announced (the one with the Onyxia's Lair revamp and more). This could mean a fix for the Scourge Strike nerf which made Obliterate better. Therefore, I think we should be careful that we don't stray too far from the regular idea of Unholy of not stacking ArP - this is all theory-based though, so who knows.
Just wanted to put it out there. Otherwise, the build's been working nice for me and mostly everyone else as stated a few pages ago.
@syntaxsmurf: Bandit's Insignia is still better unless you actually need all of the hit from Grim Toll (which your armory shows you do not).
yea thanks bro figured it out myselfs, appreantly knowing whats right and wanting it confirmed landed me an infraction
@sence why are you using the armor pen trinket btw? Bandits insignia never dropped or is there some solid theory making it better because I don't really see it. Could be wrong though.
Bandit's is indeed superior, it just has never dropped for me. My trinket luck is just horrid. It's like Banner or Mirror. Hoping Algalon drops either [Dark Matter] or [Comet's Trail] soon, but until that I'm kinda stuck with Banner (which is actually pretty amazing for a five man trinket, but yeah, doesn't compare to twenty-five man stuff). Unless I can find a way to drop enough hit to make the Yogg trinket usable, but I don't see that being doable.
T7 4 piece is good - it always has been - but it still isn't worth using over T8. The T7 4p causes you to generate 170 RP per 20 seconds instead of 150 RP per 20. That's a 13.333% increase in how many DCs you can throw (and, as such, how much damage your UB deals). The T8 2p, on the other hand, is a flat 15% increase in your DC (and thus UB) damage, meaning it is easily superior (plus, it scales with extra DCs from AMS RP). This, in addition to the higher stats, makes T8 still way above it.
Edit - Don't know how to make the Wowhead link show the Dark Matter trinket instead of the quest item, but whatever ><.
Bandit's is indeed superior, it just has never dropped for me. My trinket luck is just horrid. It's like Banner or Mirror.
Edit - Don't know how to make the Wowhead link show the Dark Matter trinket instead of the quest item, but whatever ><.
Banner is better than Mirror due to higher chance to proc (20% vs 10%), and ArP is better than crit for Oblit Unholy.
To show items that share the same name, use the item ID from wowhead, which is 46038, then use that between the item tags [Dark Matter].
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'm going with the 17/54 but I'm curious to points being spent in 2/2 Chill of the Grave. Since people are saying to use Obliterate over any skill relating to RP, wouldn't it be better to have 3/3 Subersion for OB crit instead ?
Seeing there is none, I calculated Unholy stat values using Kahorie's DK Simulator. I didn't used EP but normal simulations and manual calculations. Gear used is ilvl245 quality - base stats were: 255.7 dps, 3.6 speed, 2000 str, 150 agi, 14000 armor, 250 ap, 263 hit, 900 crit, 100 haste, 500 arp, 164 exp, Virulence sigil.
For 4xT9 I assumed that WP will proc it and it won't have any cooldown so it most likely is little high (and too high if WP won't double crit). I also have no idea why crit and AGI is valued less in OB build. Also haste value should be closer in both builds. T9 bonuses seems to be OP so I would expect nerfs on them (internal cooldown on 2xT9 and sigil probably incoming).
Treat numbers above only as general direction until someone count them more properly.
Considering the ilvl-difference between SoV and SoVH and especially vs SoA the noticable-but-not-huge dps boost does not at all deserve a nerf if you ask me.
About the crit and agi rating being lower in 3/13/55 it's obviously because you pick up Subversion giving you 9% higher chance to crit. The higher your innate crit rating is, the lower the value of additional crit. It's simple really.
EDIT: I'm actually sceptic about your numbers, especially just crit rating being on 1.9 EPAP in the 17/54 spec, I really don't see how crit can be worth more going from SS to Obli that has so much more talents boosting it's critchance already.
Those numbers all make a lot of sense, and are greatly appreciated.
The one thing I don't quite understand, however, is the change in haste's value. Auto-attack is the same portion of your damage as it's always been, more or less. The only talent 12/0/59 has affecting it which 3/13/55 (or 0/17/54) does not have is Bladed Armor, and I can't see that making up for a ~20% difference in value. Unless there is something obvious I'm missing?
And, to the above, it's not as simple as just buffing SS back up (they did have a reason - PvP ones - for nerfing it in the first place). Although using Obl seems odd and is contrary to the intended playstyle, it is still perfectly viable DPS wise, so I doubt it's a high priority. Besides, it also happens to make ArP more attractive for Unholy, something they've been wanting. The fact that they don't have a solution quite yet isn't all that surprising, and isn't that big of a deal.
Edit: Also, the Sigil already has an icd (and I would imagine 2p t9 does as well). Admittedly, yes, the icd is shorter than the duration, so you can still have 90%+ uptime on a stationary fight, but it is there. Really though, Vengeful Heart to Virulence is no larger an upgrade than Awareness to Vengeful Heart. Sigils have always been very strong - stronger than guns/bows/wands. That strength, however, comes at the cost of not having many options for that slot, and not being able to stack a specific stat from it if you must.
08/12/09, 10:12 PM
