Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 49

sweberry · 08/14/09, 12:33 PM

@Fugazor: My god, I read it as the right hand spec being 0/17/54 that you compared to the Subversion-picking one! That explains my confusion about the matter. Then I am all about what Consider is saying here; both about those numbers making sense and about Virulence having an ICD (of 10 sec if I remember correctly) and supposing to be the kind of dps-boost it is.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/14/09, 1:55 PM

In addition, if a player is at their appropriate spell hit chance or hit chance maximum, their pet will be at the maximum for spell hit chance, hit chance, and expertise. If they are below the maximum, their pet will be proportionately below those maximums.
What exactly does the proportional part mean? If I have 4% hit, my pets will be at half hit and exp? I'm correcting the sim right now and need to know it

. Does it also count for guardian pets like the unskilled ghoul?

• frmorrison · 08/14/09, 2:34 PM

That is a good assumption (4% melee hit gives the pet 4% hit and 13 expertise). I know guardian pets (non-Unholy DK) still get affected by Strength, so the hit buff likely gets them as well.

Mortak · 08/14/09, 2:49 PM

I have to confirm Fugazor stat weights, i got pretty much the same results with similar gearstats and the 3/13/55 specc on a 2000h EP-Simulation with the newest Kahorie Simulator.

The crit and the haste weights also confused me in the behinning, but after some thoughts it made sense.

lower haste-weight than in 3.1:
- 2 points less in necrosis
- Autoattack-dmg didnt get bufft, but all styles put together now deal a significantly bigger part of our dmg

higher crit-weight:
- much much less crit is on the current gear
- much higher attackpower makes the benefit of one additional crit much higher
- obliterate gets less crit bonus, but its not such a big part of our dmg as scourgestrike was

Gorgamesh · 08/14/09, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

In addition, if a player is at their appropriate spell hit chance or hit chance maximum, their pet will be at the maximum for spell hit chance, hit chance, and expertise. If they are below the maximum, their pet will be proportionately below those maximums.
What exactly does the proportional part mean? If I have 4% hit, my pets will be at half hit and exp? I'm correcting the sim right now and need to know it

. Does it also count for guardian pets like the unskilled ghoul?

Hi, long time reader, first time poster here so be gentle please

.

I think what it might mean is that it will scale accordingly to your target's level.

For example fighting level 80 target will only require you to have 5% hit to get your pet hit and exp capped fighting level 83 boss will require 8% in order to achieve that, and if you have below that amount it will prolly cut same percentage of hit/exp from your pet. Just my thought :S.

Sellout · 08/14/09, 3:51 PM

I am uncertain as to why the discussion of Obliterate is finding it's way so deep into the thread. This seems to be an oversight of blizzard [as Scourge strike is meant to be the ability used for unholy otherwise it's existence seems pointless] and maybe its a more appropriate topic to develop on and expand in another thread so that the unholy spec can be discussed more appropriately as they have different stat wieghts.

One could argue that Scourge strike is just a pvp talent but that seems to feel wrong and I am suprised a blue has not commented on the subject. So new thread for obliterate oriented unholy specs? Or maybe just the topic of why is this happening with Obliterate and Scourge strike should be discussed in another thread at length.

Consider · 08/14/09, 4:07 PM

The reason the Obliterate talk is starting so relatively late into the thread is because it only developed in the latest patch. Pre-3.2, there was no realistic point (80%+ armor pen? Yeah, right) which you could reach and at which you would Oblit over SS. 3.2 changed that.

Anyways, no new thread is necessary. The Obliterate Unholy play style is the exact same as the Scourge Strike Unholy play style, you simply sub in Obliterate for Scourge Strike (duh =p), and get better results in the same gear.

Is this probably unintended by Blizzard, and will it probably be corrected at some point in the future, through some means? Yes, almost certainly. However, until then, Unholy DPS in PvE is Obliterate, not Scourge Strike, so there is really zero point in discussing the latter. This thread is quite sufficient in and of itself. The only problem with it is that the front page needs to be updated, but Miracle has already said he's on that.

As well, there have already been numerous posts showing why Obliterate beats SS, so simply go back a few pages and/or search if you do not yet understand why ^^.

Ankou · 08/14/09, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gorgamesh

Hi, long time reader, first time poster here so be gentle please

.

I think what it might mean is that it will scale accordingly to your target's level.

For example fighting level 80 target will only require you to have 5% hit to get your pet hit and exp capped fighting level 83 boss will require 8% in order to achieve that, and if you have below that amount it will prolly cut same percentage of hit/exp from your pet. Just my thought :S.

Easiest way of thinking of it is you pet has your hit % not the actual hit # you have. So if you have 5% chance to hit you pet has 5% chance to hit.

diospadre · 08/15/09, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sellout

I am uncertain as to why the discussion of Obliterate is finding it's way so deep into the thread. This seems to be an oversight of blizzard [as Scourge strike is meant to be the ability used for unholy otherwise it's existence seems pointless] and maybe its a more appropriate topic to develop on and expand in another thread so that the unholy spec can be discussed more appropriately as they have different stat wieghts.

One could argue that Scourge strike is just a pvp talent but that seems to feel wrong and I am suprised a blue has not commented on the subject. So new thread for obliterate oriented unholy specs? Or maybe just the topic of why is this happening with Obliterate and Scourge strike should be discussed in another thread at length.

If you'd like you can start a Scourge Strike-centric 3.2 thread and title it "Shitty Unholy Specs".

Consider · 08/15/09, 3:08 AM

I hate to bring this back up, especially since I was one of the ones who thought it was a pretty done deal, but: Using my current gear (Not sure what it would be described as. Mid-late Ulduar? Something? Not all 3.1 best in slot due to previously being a tank, but relatively decent. Feel free to look at the armory for specifics) and utilizing the latest version of Kahorie's Simulator, I am now showing 3/13/55 being a dps upgrade over 0/17/54. A ~5 dps upgrade which, admittedly, is next to nothing, but if you put on top of that the fact that 3/13/55 gets threat reduction, has a looser rotation (which means you can benefit more from AMS/Revitalize/Disc Priest RP), and can get an extra point in GF or IUP, it would make 3/13/55 is the clear choice.

It's interesting since the previous sims/math had shown that 3/13/55 wouldn't claim supremacy until you dropped 2p t8 (which, for most people, wouldn't happen until they got 4p t9, which is probably a ways off). The fact that it's happening this relatively early, in gearing terms, is curious, and certainly something to take into consideration. Especially when 3/13/55 ultimately scales better than 0/17/54. Not sure what changed in this version of the sim which would influence how these two specs perform in relation to one another, but assuming it's more accurate, something to think on.

I'll probably run sim a few more times, but if I keep getting it to show this (which, so far, I have been), I'll probably give it a try this coming Tuesday.

Results below:

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Main Hand	2288334116	17	657918	66	31	1	3478
Obliterate	2197435054	17	334655	64	34	1	6566
Plague Strike	204737793	1	84554	58	40	1	2421
Icy Touch	251907369	1	84757	70	27	1	2972
Blood Strike	477862516	3	166934	64	34	1	2862
Death Coil	1813429220	14	315355	63	35	1	5750
UB	362623685	2	315355	100	0	0	1149
Frost Fever	757581555	5	544355	100	0	0	1391
Blood Plague	761856948	5	546047	100	0	0	1395
Necrosis	457865086	3	657918	100	0	0	695
Blood Caked Blade	363976747	2	194480	98	0	1	1871
Wandering Plague	500298176	3	359033	98	0	1	1393
Ghoul	1644312561	12	1652046	86	13	0	995
Gargoyle	680166592	5	174223	85	12	1	3904
Horn	0	0	80378	0	0	0	0
DPS 7090
Total Damage 12762.39m in 500h
Threat Per Second 4676
Generated in 898s
Template: Unholy Oblit 0-17-54
Priority: Unholy Oblit
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Main Hand	2311480412	18	657847	67	31	1	3513
Obliterate	2401994626	18	338572	55	43	1	7094
Plague Strike	209647789	1	85426	58	40	1	2454
Icy Touch	257135293	2	85603	71	27	1	3003
Blood Strike	522120009	4	168883	55	43	1	3091
Death Coil	1550847863	12	266952	63	35	1	5809
UB	310275719	2	266952	100	0	0	1162
Frost Fever	769320351	6	547090	100	0	0	1406
Blood Plague	772892474	6	548375	100	0	0	1409
Necrosis	462435472	3	657847	100	0	0	702
Blood Caked Blade	369594304	2	194875	98	0	1	1896
Wandering Plague	509951731	3	362218	98	0	1	1407
Ghoul	1644751065	12	1652046	86	13	0	995
Gargoyle	677851520	5	173630	85	12	1	3904
Horn	0	0	81011	0	0	0	0
DPS 7095
Total Damage 12770.3m in 500h
Threat Per Second 3514
Generated in 970s
Template: 3-13-54
Priority: Unholy Oblit
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

Edit: Also, for those curious about the specifics of the specs I used (since they each have a little bit of variation), I did 5/5 Necrosis and 3/5 Desolation for 0/17/54, and then 5/5 Necrosis and 4/5 Desolation for 3/13/55.

Sellout · 08/15/09, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

The reason the Obliterate talk is starting so relatively late into the thread is because it only developed in the latest patch. Pre-3.2, there was no realistic point (80%+ armor pen? Yeah, right) which you could reach and at which you would Oblit over SS. 3.2 changed that.

Anyways, no new thread is necessary. The Obliterate Unholy play style is the exact same as the Scourge Strike Unholy play style, you simply sub in Obliterate for Scourge Strike (duh =p), and get better results in the same gear.

Is this probably unintended by Blizzard, and will it probably be corrected at some point in the future, through some means? Yes, almost certainly. However, until then, Unholy DPS in PvE is Obliterate, not Scourge Strike, so there is really zero point in discussing the latter. This thread is quite sufficient in and of itself. The only problem with it is that the front page needs to be updated, but Miracle has already said he's on that.

As well, there have already been numerous posts showing why Obliterate beats SS, so simply go back a few pages and/or search if you do not yet understand why ^^.

Thanks for the response it's appreciated. The main hiccup I had was whether or not gearing or stat weights would need to be changed significantly to utilize the build, however it seems that is not necessary. So my confusion etc was stemming from that and why I was wondering whether or not a branch off was necessary.

I am not too big of a fan of abusing things I know are going to be changed, however if it will have that little impact on both play style and gear I guess there really is no reason not to.

Fugazor · 08/15/09, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

In addition, if a player is at their appropriate spell hit chance or hit chance maximum, their pet will be at the maximum for spell hit chance, hit chance, and expertise. If they are below the maximum, their pet will be proportionately below those maximums.
What exactly does the proportional part mean? If I have 4% hit, my pets will be at half hit and exp? I'm correcting the sim right now and need to know it

. Does it also count for guardian pets like the unskilled ghoul?

I think it would mean that if you attack, for example, boss (req. 8% hit and 6.5% exp) and you have 4% (so 50% of cap) then your pet will have 4% hit and 3.25% expertise. It would also could be that pet gets as much % exp as hit so in this case 4% exp with 4% hit.

Sealpup · 08/15/09, 10:48 AM

Consider, have you perchance compared your sims versus actual parses on bosses? Do you have a worldoflogs parse that yield similar results to your sim?

Those numbers look significantly different to my parses. For me, wandering plague yields at least 3, usually approaching 5%. Unholy blight yields at least 3, approaching 4%. Blood-caked blade with 3 points is static 3%. Main hand and obliterate also approach 20-21% rather than 17-18%. (XT Heartbreaker)(Steelbreaker last)

Also, isn't 5/5 Necrosis for 3% on your sim fairly poor investment for talent points? Considering that desolation is 100% up time per rotation and adds 1% per talent point. For reference, my PvE gear is 4x8.5, Legs of Ruination, Belt of the Titans, Mjolinir + Greatness, and Aesir's.

Consider · 08/15/09, 11:02 AM

There are a couple things about simulations you have to keep in mind,
1) This one doesn't do decimals. WP, for instance, is actually near 4% in those above parses, it's just not rounding up for whatever reason. As such numbers may fluctuate by a percent here and there.
2) The simulation is on a single target (of course). WP will hit nearby mobs, even unintentionally. This won't add up for a ton on a fight like XT or IC, but it will somewhat buffer the damage it does. On XT it can hit sparks (depending where you tank them) and on IC it can hit Steelbreaker depending how you tank Stormcaller in phase 2.
3) Stuff like AMS RP, RP from a Druid, and RP from a Disc Priest are very real parts of raiding, and something the simulator can't model. These things will cause your DC/UB damage to be slightly higher than they otherwise would.
4) Simulators aren't perfect. Just as they can't model how much RP you'll get from AMS/Druids/Priests, they can't predict how many bombs you'll get on XT (and how much that will affect your DPS - not just in time lost DPSing, but restarting your rotation) or how many Overloads you'll have to run out of on IC (and how that will affect your DPS). It doesn't model AotD, due to its highly variable damage. So on. It's an outline, nothing more. Don't take it for the gospel.
5) WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay . An admittedly bleh parse (our instances lagged horribly on Tuesday), but the breakdown is just what I got from the sim when plugging in my old gear (SotVH, and down another upgrade or two here and there).
6) Necrosis was 3.4% damage in those two sims. That's .68% dps/point. Desolation, on the other hand, is .83%/point (it affects only your damage, remember, not your pets damage). Desolation, however, won't have perfect uptime in many cases (such as those aforementioned bombs and such, or at the start of the fight) and won't proc (since you'll be using your blood runes on Pest/BB/D&D) on AoEing (thus not benefiting you at all when doing it), while the damage Necrosis gives is pretty constant (even on AoE). The dps difference between the two is very minor, and almost nonexistent in most cases. Which you take won't affect how one specs performs against the other.

Anywho! Stat weights, for those interested, which might be a bit more accurate than the previous ones given due to changes in the sim (although the resulats are very similar overall). Think expertise/hit are calculating oddly, but the rest seem pretty right. Spec was 3/13/55, gear was mine, hours were 2000:

EP:50	AttackPower	100
EP:50	Strength	301
EP:50	Agility	101
EP:50	CritRating	157
EP:50	HasteRating	140
EP:50	ArmorPenetrationRating	177
EP:50	ExpertiseRating	163
EP:50	HitRating	308
EP:50	SpellHitRating	131
EP:10	WeaponDPS	672
EP:0.1	WeaponSpeed	34426
EP:	2T7	8000
EP:	4T7	20833
EP:	2T8	10333
EP:	4T8	14500
EP:	2T9	33333
EP:	4T9	54500
	Template	3-13-55
	Priority	Unholy Oblit
	Presence	Blood
	Sigil	Virulence
	RuneEnchant	FallenCrusader
	Pet Calculation	True

Edit: Updated EP values with hit/exp.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/15/09, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

1) This one doesn't do decimals. WP, for instance, is actually near 4% in those above parses, it's just not rounding up for whatever reason. As such numbers may fluctuate by a percent here and there.
2) The simulation is on a single target (of course). WP will hit nearby mobs, even unintentionally. This won't add up for a ton on a fight like XT or IC, but it will somewhat buffer the damage it does. On XT it can hit sparks (depending where you tank them) and on IC it can hit Steelbreaker depending how you tank Stormcaller in phase 2.
3) Stuff like AMS RP, RP from a Druid, and RP from a Disc Priest are very real parts of raiding, and something the simulator can't model. These things will cause your DC/UB damage to be slightly higher than they otherwise would.
4) Simulators aren't perfect.

1) It's just the display that's rounded. Internally there are lots of decimals.
2) Unintended aoe damage looks good in logs, but it doesn't help anyone

.
3) You can add additional rp.
4) You or me aren't perfect either, but the sim is not perfect the same way every time. That's unique and necessary for correct comparisons.

Melchior · 08/15/09, 6:04 PM

One other thing I noticed with 3/13/55 on the latest sim was that UP (with 2/2 IUP) parsed very nearly at the exact same level as BP. Using 2H Ulduar set they were about 30 DPS apart. I'm guessing that has to do with the pet calculation changes.

Chivalryy · 08/16/09, 10:18 AM

hmm i have just swapped to this 0/17/54 spec as well.... not played in a while so i still have my 4 set bonus for my Scourgebourne which is the extra 5 runic power every time i hit OB..

So a couple things if anyone can make clear would be great

First of all do i need to pop HoW in the middle of the rotation if i get extra 5 RP for my OB hits..

And second.. atm i have most of my attacks macroed to pop Rune strike on next auto attack if its become available... is this a good idea or is it just going to mess up my RP and rotations and mean a dps loss in the long run... should i ditch Rune strike altogether?

thanks for any advice

Karashote · 08/16/09, 11:07 AM

Regarding the 3/13/55 build for 2H unholy with the Sigil of Virulence, I would just like clarification as to why you are to go this spec when you get this Sigil. I have read this thread and have read many things pertaining to this, but I still don't know why i am supposed to changed specs. If i missed it i am sorry for this post.

Mortak · 08/16/09, 11:20 AM

3/13/55 pulls even with the new sigil and has some major advantages (aggro reduce, less gcd usage, easier to get IUP)

drastic · 08/16/09, 2:39 PM

The numbers that I am seeing while running the sim with 0/10/61 w/ IUP are coming up with a solid +55 DPS or so extra by DPS'ing in Unholy Presence instead of Blood Presence (not even counting the movement speed DPS boost for non-static fights). This build does involve dropping Epidemic for IUP. I always though that it was the generally accepted rule around here that you take IUP for the run speed but still DPS in BP, so that's why I ask.

Obviously the simulation is affected by gear levels (and I've tried 2-3 pretty different gear sets with the same results), but... in general, can anyone else substantiate what Im seeing here? Am I doing something wrong in the sim?

diospadre · 08/16/09, 3:13 PM

Adding to what Mortak said, switching from Vengeful Heart devalues Death Coils a bit, making spending all those points to get Chill of the Grave a bit worse.

Leg · 08/17/09, 3:46 PM

I am trying 1/17/53 and seem awesome, just dropped 3 points on necrosis, I prefer desolation because affect better the overall damage and GF.
It seems -8% threat is just what we need and +3% Obli. Crit. Rating works better then well with +3 Crit.Rat. from Annihilation.
Take a look I get about 33-35% crit. rat. with 25 man buffs so Obli criticals will be always around 40%.
I am not sure that – 1 x DC per 2 rotations can afford +6% obl. Crit rat.
On my last raid DC was having also a insane crit. about 60%.
We still too much good on AOE even without the old UB (aoe). WP with the plagues damage increased of 15% do at least 6% from overall dps even on single target fight.
Setting a balanced UH DK with good AOE as well on single target it is a way to go.

croana · 08/17/09, 4:24 PM

Thank you for all the effort that has been put into the thread so far!

So...I'm rather confident about what my single target spell rotation would be now, (replacing Obliterate for SS, check), but am still rather confused as to whether or not there are any drastic changes to the AOE spell rotation. If the front page could be updated sometime soon, that would be great. It would answer my question very nicely.

Leg · 08/17/09, 5:50 PM

Well AOE stills the same unless for UB, goes like this: IT >PS>Pestilence>BB> RT>BB >DC>OB>BS>DC>BB>OB>DC>BB …. After these make sure your plagues are up on all mobs, keep spamming DC, OB and BB as soon you have the chance.

• frmorrison · 08/17/09, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Leg

Well AOE stills the same unless for UB, goes like this: IT >PS>Pestilence>BB> RT>BB >DC>OB>BS>DC>BB>OB>DC>BB …. After these make sure your plagues are up on all mobs, keep spamming DC, OB and BB as soon you have the chance.

If you are doing AoE as any spec, you want to use Death and Decay. I usually do DnD first, then start that rotation and keep refreshing DnD (assuming the targets aren't moving) if the targets aren't dead yet.