I respecced my DK to UH 2H today; I searched through the thread, but I couldn't find a dps value for each point in morbidity, if I missed it I'm sorry. I'm thinking to grab one point from morbidity to get IUP. I am aware they are both personal choice talents, but I would appreciate if someone can give me a dps value for morbidity.
edit: Please delete the post; found answer in the thread.
Last edited by pessadilla : 08/17/09 at 10:35 PM.
Reason: Found answer in the thread; please delete the post.
Dont do it. Morbitdity is one of the most improtant talents.
Single target it provides close to 1% dps per point and multitarget alot more (dunno maybe like 10%).
So there should never be a reason to dropt point out of morbidity.
Rather drop desolation/necrosis.
Morbidity is around ~0.7 - 1.0% dps/point. How much exactly depends on whether you are 3/13/55 or 0/17/54, whether you are still using SotVH or not, and other such factors, hence why a more precise number can't really be given. Even if it falls on the low end of the spectrum for you (you're 3/13/55, you are using SoVirulence, you aren't getting extra RP from AMS, etc), it's still better than Necrosis, point for point (although, admittedly, only slightly so in such a case).
So when you factor in the Death and Decay CD reduction, it becomes pretty clear that Necrosis is a better place to sacrifice a point from. Or Desolation, potentially.
Well I have been out dpsing Dks who use Glyph of the Ghoul with Glyph of Disease since 3.2 rolled out. I am very surprised no one has suggested it yet. In my rotation I use Icy and PS once then when I need to refresh my disease I do one pestilence which procs my reaping I get my unholy runes from that and 1 blood strike then i get to obliterate non-stop.
It really was not rocket surgery to see how powerful glyph of disease was when I first got the idea but I recommend a few of you test it out because I am out dpsing all the dks who run Ghoul glyph
You trade the damage of a PS, IT, and BS for an Obliterate. You also lose 5 RP/20 seconds. It's really not that big of a damage boost, if one at all. And when you factor in the loss of Glyph of Ghoul (which is huge)?
Yeah, using Glyph of Disease is completely terrible (as Unholy, anyways). It's not rocket surgery to see how weak it is ^.-.
Outdpsing "all the dks who run Ghoul glyph" is doubtful. Parses? Simulations? Math? Anything to support your claim aside from your opinion (which runs contrary to all previous evidence)? Nope. Thus your post lacks any sort of merit.
PS and IT are a waste of space in the rotation look at your own parse to see what damage they yield. 1 BS is lost but you gain an Obliterate and with the 3 / 13 / 55 build you do not lose 5 RP because you gain more from the Extra Obliterate already. I am telling you spend the 15 - 20 gold to buy the glyph
PS - IT - BS - BS - OB - Dump
OB - OB - OB - Bood tap - Pestilence - Dump
it gets a bit confusing to juggle that pestilence but the extra obliterates is well worth the DPS. I am simply suggesting you try it out. I have not run a calculator If someone could please put it through.
You are trading IT PS for a Obliterate and you lose 1 BS. Over all I would say you gain more RP I dont see how you can lose it.
PS and IT are a waste of space in the rotation look at your own parse to see what damage they yield. 1 BS is lost but you gain an Obliterate and with the 3 / 13 / 55 build you do not lose 5 RP because you gain more from the Extra Obliterate already. I am telling you spend the 15 - 20 gold to buy the glyph
PS - IT - BS - BS - OB - Dump
OB - OB - OB - Bood tap - Pestilence - Dump
it gets a bit confusing to juggle that pestilence but the extra obliterates is well worth the DPS. I am simply suggesting you try it out. I have not run a calculator If someone could please put it through.
You are trading IT PS for a Obliterate and you lose 1 BS. Over all I would say you gain more RP I dont see how you can lose it.
Don't be an idiot. With 3/13/55 your Obliterate generates 20 RP, and an IT + PS generates 25.
And your "math" completely ignores the DPS loss from dropping Glyph of the Ghoul.
[edit] Fixed RP amounts.
[edit] Just because I'm curious, I looked at a parse from a Vezax 10 I went on (source) to see my breakdown. The swing speed reduction shouldn't affect the spells in question. My Obliterate hit/crit for 4.0k/8.8k on average, BS for 1.5/2.8, IT for 1.9/3.5, and PS for 1.2/2.7. So if I used GoDisease, Using some extremely fuzzy math, I would gain roughly 0.9k/2.6k damage per rotation from Obliterate but lose 1.5k/2.8k damage per rotation from Blood Strike, leading to a net loss in damage. I would also lose 5 RP per rotation AND (don't forget) Glyph of the Ghoul. On top of all that, there's a chance I'd have lower Desolation uptime. Yeah, bad idea.
You trade the damage of a PS, IT, and BS for an Obliterate. You also lose 5 RP/20 seconds. It's really not that big of a damage boost, if one at all. And when you factor in the loss of Glyph of Ghoul (which is huge)?
Well, of course OB<IT+PS+BS* damage wise. However, using glyph of disease frees a GCD per rotation. The question is then, do we generate enough RP to fire one more DC per rotation. If so, we get OB+DC>IT+PS+BS* damage wise and glyph of disease should be considered as an option. This is the main reason why this glyph seems to provide higher dps for DW frost at the moment.
This said, I really doubt we generate enough RP to fire the supplementary DC per rotation. Not accounting for the fact, as you say, that our 3 major glyphs are pretty good and loosing one of them should be factored in. Still, I would be curious to sim it in Kahorie's simulator as soon as the new version supporting GoDisease rotation is available.
*To support my inequalities, here are average numbers for those abilities according to Kahorie's sim (with 2HUlduar character sheet)
Still, I would be curious to sim it in Kahorie's simulator as soon as the new version supporting GoDisease rotation is available.
The latest version (1.0.3.x) of the sim contain new code for the support of GoDisease on priority mode. I don't have enough feedback on it, but it looks better than before.
The latest version (1.0.3.x) of the sim contain new code for the support of GoDisease on priority mode. I don't have enough feedback on it, but it looks better than before.
Tx. I just did the sim for the 2HUlduar character sheet. I'm not sure how to paste the results here in an elegant way, but here is the conclusion according to the simulator
0-17-54-unholyOB with diseases : DPS 7172.
0-17-54-unholyOB (replaced glyph of the ghoul by glyph of disease... which is the best option) without disease : DPS 7057.
So GoD does not seem worth it. However, my sim with GoD refreshes diseases more often* which may result in a dps loss. I suppose it reapplies diseases when I get procs+BL or something like that... Maybe Afabar can explain more how the simulator works.
Another Interesting point is that I get around 30% more HoW cast in the GoD sim. This means we do not generate enough RP as it is to cast one more DC per rotation. However, proper use of AMS or other RP generating abilities may be able to push GoD higher.
*I'm getting around 9% more disease refreshes with the GoD sim.
N.B. : I really like the fact that keeping the same priority but switching the glyph changes the behaviour of the simulator, nicely done.
So GoD does not seem worth it. However, my sim with GoD refreshes diseases more often* which may result in a dps loss. I suppose it reapplies diseases when I get procs+BL or something like that... Maybe Afabar can explain more how the simulator works.
*I'm getting around 9% more disease refreshes with the GoD sim.
I still trying to make it cast only one PS/IT per simulation, and it's better that before but not perfect. When I get to this stage, I will make a trick to make it refresh when the stars align.
ps: I just have found that the report of pestilence do not reset between simulation. I don't have yet delivered the correction.
Those numbers all make a lot of sense, and are greatly appreciated.
Edit: Also, the Sigil already has an icd (and I would imagine 2p t9 does as well). Admittedly, yes, the icd is shorter than the duration, so you can still have 90%+ uptime on a stationary fight, but it is there. Really though, Vengeful Heart to Virulence is no larger an upgrade than Awareness to Vengeful Heart. Sigils have always been very strong - stronger than guns/bows/wands. That strength, however, comes at the cost of not having many options for that slot, and not being able to stack a specific stat from it if you must.
That, and it's what we're balanced around.
Question. I noticed that Sigil of Virulence buff has the same name as RoFC buff; they are both called Unholy Strenght. Am I correct in believe both buffs can stack independent of this?I had both procs at the same time; but I'm not sure if they stacked.
Question. I noticed that Sigil of Virulence buff has the same name as RoFC buff; they are both called Unholy Strenght. Am I correct in believe both buffs can stack independent of this?I had both procs at the same time; but I'm not sure if they stacked.
Yes they stack. Fallen Crusader, Virulence Sigil, Greatness all stack.
@Strungout: What you are doing wrong here is disregarding all that is theorycrafting and just saying "this is the best, i beat all DKs" (in your guild? on your server?). This is not how work is done here and you should know it by now.
I have nothing against looking into how a GoDisease-spec would work for Unholy although I doubt it will be as successful (it's not even superfar ahead of regular IT/PS-diseasing there) as for Frost.
Also: When applying diseases you'd want to re-apply Blood Plague as soon as possible to gain the extra damage from RoR.
It seems that 0/17/54 has the overall most DPS potential, but I'm still confused as to where to allocate the intermittent talent points in the unholy tree.
We have 2 floating talent points to use in the Unholy tree. With them we could either:
-Get Improved Unholy Presence for a 15% movement speed boost.
-Get the final 2 points in Necrosis.
-Get the final point in Epidemic and put the other point in either Necrosis or Desolation.
Which leaves me wondering what the relative priorities should be for picking up Epidemic, Necrosis, Desolation, and Improved Unholy Presence (this is all assuming a 2h-Unholy Obliterate spec with high end gear).
I also left a major glyph spot open, which would be the best major to fill the third spot? Glyph of Disease and use Pestilence to refresh diseases (this is what I'm assuming)?
It seems that 0/17/54 has the overall most DPS potential, but I'm still confused as to where to allocate the intermittent talent points in the unholy tree.
We have 2 floating talent points to use in the Unholy tree. With them we could either:
-Get Improved Unholy Presence for a 15% movement speed boost.
-Get the final 2 points in Necrosis.
-Get the final point in Epidemic and put the other point in either Necrosis or Desolation.
Which leaves me wondering what the relative priorities should be for picking up Epidemic, Necrosis, Desolation, and Improved Unholy Presence (this is all assuming a 2h-Unholy Obliterate spec with high end gear).
I also left a major glyph spot open, which would be the best major to fill the third spot? Glyph of Disease and use Pestilence to refresh diseases (this is what I'm assuming)?
I'm pretty sure Necrosis has been determined as the best talent point investment, beyond that the specs I've seen discussed here always max out Epidemic.
Read up, Glyph of Disease has been discussed extensively as well, and the only actual data I've seen seems to show that GoDisease is not an upgrade for Unholy. You want Glyph of Dark Death.
Hey Fellas I just had a few questions about my 17/54 spec. Im trying to figure out exactly how other dks are using empower runed weapon in their rotation. Typically i use it in my first rotation.
PS, IT, BS, BS , OB, ERW, BS, BS OB, OB OB. Im using that just for some burst in my initial rotation. Dont know if there is a better way to go about using ERW.
Another question i had is about the percieved rotation for 2H UH OB spec. I know you throw horn of winter in there so you can throw an extra death coil. I was just wondering why some rotations go something along the lines of.....
OB, DC, OB, DC, OB. After diseases are put up.
Why go back and forth between the two rather than just OB till all runes are gone then deathcoiling till all runic power is gone. Like....
Hey Fellas I just had a few questions about my 17/54 spec. Im trying to figure out exactly how other dks are using empower runed weapon in their rotation. Typically i use it in my first rotation.
PS, IT, BS, BS , OB, ERW, BS, BS OB, OB OB. Im using that just for some burst in my initial rotation. Dont know if there is a better way to go about using ERW.
Another question i had is about the percieved rotation for 2H UH OB spec. I know you throw horn of winter in there so you can throw an extra death coil. I was just wondering why some rotations go something along the lines of.....
OB, DC, OB, DC, OB. After diseases are put up.
Why go back and forth between the two rather than just OB till all runes are gone then deathcoiling till all runic power is gone. Like....
OB, OB, OB, DC, DC, DC.
Thanks in advance fellas.
Can't give you the specific number chrunshing, but I dump RP randomly whenever I don't have a have runes for a move I dumb since its time spend doing nothing, should I get close to the RP sealing I dumb all my RP there no matter what runes I have. as long as my diseases are up, and prefered that Bloodrunes are converting to death runes.
ERW usage is a difficult question, and there really isn't any right or wrong answer to it. Personally, I dislike just using it whenever it's up, as I find it will actually screw my rotation up more than it will help, but to each their own.
There are a few circumstances which I would say "beg" for its use more than others:
1) Temporary damage (de)buffs. This is stuff like a rune on IC, Stormpower on Hodir, Heart of XT, so on. Times where the extra couple Obliterates and DCs it lets you throw will give you more damage than at any other random moment during the encounter.
2) When you mess up your rotation. Let's be honest, we all screw up from time to time. Perhaps you don't realize your IT got resisted, or maybe you accidently hit BS on a death rune, instead of using it for Obliterate. Perhaps it isn't even your fault - you get a light bomb, a legion fire, a whatever, making you run out mid rotation, and when you get back in your all screwed up. Whatever the case, ERW is basically a reset button.
3) The end of the fight. Do you know the boss is going to die in a few seconds, and you're at the part of your rotation where you just throw a BS or two, or are waiting on runes to come back up to renew FF/BP? Pop ERW and get in a few thousand more damage than you otherwise would before the boss dies.
Like I said though, there really is no right or wrong way to use it, really. It's timing isn't near as important as Gargoyles, or AotD, or any of those types of CDs. In ordinary circumstances, it actually doesn't give all that much damage since you will have, at most, one empty GCD per 20 seconds, so it is replacing/pushing off other abilities, instead of just giving you X extra damage. Opportunity cost, you know.
Anyways, the reason you do Ob - DC - Ob - DC - Ob - DC in the second leg of your rotation instead of Ob x 3 - DC x 3 is because you have dead time in between the Obliterates. Due to how the first ten seconds of your rotation went, after you Obliterate with the first refresh of Unholy/Frost rune refresh, you aren't going to immediately be able to do it again, since you had to BS twice to produce the Death Runes.. So you may as well use the GCDs for Death Coils. If you hold it until the end, not only are letting those GCDs go to waste, you're also going to push back the rest of your rotation and, potentially, run into diseases falling off. It also prevents you from potentially capping out RP and such things.
I don't know if this was already answered but if it was then I apologize in advance. There has been a lot of talk back and forth pertaining to specs and sigil combinations For the maximum DPS output I'm still a little confused on what sigil I should use wit the 0/17/54 spec. If i should continue using the Sigil of the Vengeful Heart - Item - World of Warcraft or switch to Sigil of Virulence - Item - World of Warcraft . I also heard alot of talk with the new sigil that switching to the 3/13/55 is the best option but not until u get at least 2pc T9 is this true? Help answering this question would be greatly appreciated. I know this topic has been briefly discussed in the past couple of pages, but i haven't found a solid answer from more then one person yet. Thank you.
In the (PS IT BS BS OB Horn DC // OB DC OB DC OB DC) rotation, what's the optimal time to pop gargoyle? I haven't been able to find a good spot where it doesn't mess up my rotation.
Garg would replace a DC.
You want to pop Garg at the minimum when Unholy Strength is up. Garg scales with AP and haste, so other AP buffs helps as well as popping after Bloodlust.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Is BCB really necessary?
My recount shows me, BCB does only 2-4% dmg of a bossfight.
So, why we are not leaving bcb and take 2 points in subversion?
Two points are at least 6% crit on Oblit and 16% Aggro-Reduce.
Try this: 2 17 52.
Garg would replace a DC.
You want to pop Garg at the minimum when Unholy Strength is up. Garg scales with AP and haste, so other AP buffs helps as well as popping after Bloodlust.
Yeah, but which DC? Garg costs 60 runic power and DC costs 40, so like I said it messes up my rotation.
Due to having to wait on random/uncontrollable factors (trinket/weapon procs), there is no specific DC you drop to summon your Gargoyle. If you know you are going to pop it soon (meaning Heroism is going to be blown, your trinkets' ICDs are about up, Fallen Crusader procs, your Sigil procs, etc) just stop DCing (unless you are going to overcap your RP) until you use it. If waiting on trinket procs isn't a problem, or whatever, using it instead of your "first" DC (PS - IT - BS - BS - Ob - DC) works just fine, since you'll have over 60 RP then.
@Marvis : BCB is a better talent, point for point, than Subversion. It comes out to 0.9-1.0% dps/point, whereas Subversion is only a ~0.6% dps/point talent (the exact value of Subversion depends on how much crit your already have, and other such factors). Since I'm kinda too lazy to type out the exact math, WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay shows it pretty well. If you want to dump points into Sub before dropping Chill of the Grave, you're best off taking them from Necrosis or Desolation, both of which are weaker dps talents than BCB.
08/17/09, 10:30 PM
