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Old 08/28/09, 10:51 AM   #1301
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
You never need Bone Shield, DK's have more than enough hp. Unholy aoe needs many mobs with high hp to be superior.

SS has to include some physical damage or it will always be too good in PvP. Every successful DK PvP build centered around magical damage. That would also make Arp better for Unholy.


Originally Posted by Leg View Post
Anyone already test a SS tree with T9 gear?
No, but I did a quick test with my Max-Arp gear and 0-17-54.
Blood 8770dps, Unholy 8974dps (It's way better with a Atr set).

Unholy9397quick Str Col set
Blood8770Arp Col set
Unholy7253Ulduar default set
Blood6671Ulduar default set
Unholy is too good in theory. Even 0-10-61 is at around 9,1k.

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 08/28/09 at 2:32 PM.

 
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Old 08/28/09, 11:41 AM   #1302
 frmorrison
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
You never need Bone Shield, DK's have more than enough hp. Unholy aoe needs many mobs with high hp to be superior.
While Bone Shield may not be necessary, it really helps out on Hard Modes that Unholy needs 20% less healing (assuming you are good at keeping the buff up), so that "smart" heals can go to people that need them more.

Blizzard likes each dps spec to have a "flavor" when a class has more than one, and superior AoE/perma-pet will always be Unholy's niche.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 12:43 PM   #1303
Derivel
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Leg View Post
- Wasn’t just fine if we can use our own strike and presence that were supposed?

I think they will try to fix this so they should modify SS again or redesign it, get a little bit more damage from UB and do something about UP(damage with +haste = BP) or IUP (less runes CD perhaps 8s).
We've never gained anything from UP, though. The only time UP has pulled ahead is when a spec is so GCD constrained that they lose potential DPS, so decreasing the GCD allows them to use more abilities. We have pretty much always had a rotation with free GCDs. 0/17/54 is the most constrained unholy spec I've had, and it just resulted in me using HOW less.

IIRC the 1 sec rune refresh reduction in IUP doesn't actually end up providing more DPS in PVE, but I can't recall the math right now.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 1:04 PM   #1304
Consider
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Laughing Skull
The 1 second rune refresh reduction in IUP doesn't provide as much dps as one would expect it to in PvE due to the grace period of runes.

Hard to explain, but hope this helps: When a rune refreshes itself, you essentially have a two second window where as long as you use it in those two seconds, it will come back up ten seconds from when it originally refreshed - not ten seconds after when you actually used it. Think of it as below:

For purposes of this example, let's say all of your runes except one Blood rune are ignored.
0 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
10 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD
11 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
20 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD

You see, in that example (which is exactly how it works), the rune actually refreshes in nine seconds after the first use. Thus a rune will refresh in 8 to 10 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. What IUP does is make a rune refresh in 8 to 9 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. So in the scenario above, it would refresh one second quicker initially, but that's all. So it does give some benefit, but it's not actually as much as you think - it's certainly not 11% more rune based damage/11% runic power generated. If it was, that on top of the haste would make it actually be worth using as Unholy.

Or such is my understanding of it.

For IUP (and haste in Cataclysm) to be truly effective, that grace period needs to scale as well. The grace period is essential (otherwise you're punished if you are mid GCD when a rune comes up, or if have even the slightest bit of lag, and so on), and the fact that it actually gets smaller with IUP is kinda nonsensical.

Last edited by Consider : 08/28/09 at 1:18 PM.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 1:21 PM   #1305
Melchior
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
The 1 second rune refresh rduction in IUP doesn't provide as much dps as one would expect it to in PvE due to the grace period of runes.

Hard to explain, but hope this helps: When a rune refreshes itself, you essentially have a two second window where as long as you use it in those two seconds, it will come back up ten seconds from when it originally refreshed - not ten seconds after when you actually used it. Think of it as below:

For purposes of this example, let's say all of your runes except one Blood rune are ignored.
0 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
10 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD
11 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
20 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD

You see, in that example (which is exactly how it works), the rune actually refreshes in nine seconds after the first use. Thus a rune will refresh in 8 to 10 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. What IUP does is make a rune refresh in 8 to 9 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. So in the scenario above, it would refresh one second quicker initially, but that's all. So it does give some benefit, but it's not actually as much as you think - it's certainly not 10% more rune based damage/10% runic power generated.

Or such is my understanding of it.
I don't think the rune "grace" period would really impact the DPS gain of IUP when taken in the context of the 2H Unholy rotation. With how many free GCDs the build already has, there are precious few times where you are going to have your runes sit for more than the latency difference between the rune coming up and it being used, even in Blood Presence.

 
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Old 08/28/09, 2:59 PM   #1306
Leg
Banned
 
Human Death Knight
 
Arathor
Yes IUP + UP is actually far bad then a simple BP for many reasons ending in less DPS. This isn’t acceptable for some simple questions:

.All the game is based in – If you can heal you have less damage, if you are harder to kill so your damage is lower … (simple rules);

.Between the 3 DPS specs unholy have the lower damage mitigation* for a little bit therefore having more flexibility with more one disease and constant DPS in most situations but dyeing first in theory at the same heal/damage conditions so should have the higher DPS even for a little bit and as a DPS focused tree the presence should correspond at the same level.

Nowadays you have a awesome DPS presence (BP) on all situations adding 15% damage on your melee that have a modifier for everything you do and that heal yourself making you almost immune to area damages.
That’s no sense and makes not affordable waste 2 good points doing almost nothing on a presence then just give you some blank moments during a boss fight. The movement increased still awesome too by the way.
First thing I think they should do is make our disease damage modifier directly from AP or STR not having weapon damage modifier. In fact this is the only way it is possible: Weapon Damage affect melee (white) attacks and STR or AP affect the rest.
About UP I think they should balance UP with BP giving same DPS at least.
And about IUP it should be at least -25% on runes CD to make it 2 points affordable.
*(frost have more 6s on FF, UArmor… and Blood you know)
 
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Old 08/28/09, 3:03 PM   #1307
 frmorrison
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
World of Logs has issues identifying your pet, since you have only Ghoul Frenzy (and the spell is a dps loss for me) and the summon that shows in a combat log.
Do other parsers find out that the pet is part of your damage?

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 3:14 PM   #1308
Fargom
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
World of Logs has issues identifying your pet, since you have only Ghoul Frenzy (and the spell is a dps loss for me) and the summon that shows in a combat log.
Do other parsers find out that the pet is part of your damage?
What problems are you having with World of logs and pets? I've always found WOL to be by far the best parsing site for the specific reason that it can easily identify pets, World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis In this example of a fight segment (steelbreaker only) from IC hardmode you can easily see the exact damage for Ghoul, Gargoyle, and Army of the dead. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had a problem with WOL at all.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 3:21 PM   #1309
Leg
Banned
 
Human Death Knight
 
Arathor
I got the same issue two weeks ago. Ghoul damage wasn’t stacking with my damage but free with other people damage. Then the tank who posted fixes it on the coming logs.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 3:43 PM   #1310
 frmorrison
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Fargom View Post
What problems are you having with World of logs and pets? I've always found WOL to be by far the best parsing site for the specific reason that it can easily identify pets, World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis In this example of a fight segment (steelbreaker only) from IC hardmode you can easily see the exact damage for Ghoul, Gargoyle, and Army of the dead. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had a problem with WOL at all.
It seems I don't see how WoL is adding Garg, AotD and Ghoul damage to your total. On the damage by spell list I just see your normal attacks. I can lookup Gravetaker, AotD Ghoul, and Ebon Gargoyle individually(WoL knows they did damage).

BTW, you have Ghoul Frenzy (useful for DW Unholy), so WoL has something to track in a log to maybe know how it was your pet. 2H Unholy shouldn't have GF.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 4:13 PM   #1311
Orothar
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Balnazzar (EU)
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
It seems I don't see how WoL is adding Garg, AotD and Ghoul damage to your total. On the damage by spell list I just see your normal attacks. I can lookup Gravetaker, AotD Ghoul, and Ebon Gargoyle individually(WoL knows they did damage).

BTW, you have Ghoul Frenzy (useful for DW Unholy), so WoL has something to track in a log to maybe know how it was your pet. 2H Unholy shouldn't have GF.
Thats strange. WoL has always shown me verything. Below is a link to an Emalon kill with me in unholy, it shows my ghoul (earthripper) and my Gargoyle just fine (didnt cast Army). I think i had GF at the time, but im not sure, atm I dont use it anymore.
Emalon kill in unholy specc

Could u link one or more WoL logs wher you dont see your pet / goyle? I find this quite interesting. I had trouble with other Parsers that didnt see my ghouls properly, especially if it died and was resummoned under another name. It could also log the damage from all the army Ghouls in the raid to one DK. So far I havent had any of these problems with WoL.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 7:14 PM   #1312
Fargom
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
There should be a drop down box when you are looking at the Dashboard --> damage done for a boss fight. When I click the drop down box next to "fargom" I see which pets are assigned to me. I'm positive WOL is attribuiting my pets to me, there is no way I could burst to 8500 dps without pets included.

Question, to people having problems with pets showing up, are you actually submitting your own combat log to your guildmate who handles the parses? Being as I am the one with the pets, I always make sure to zip and send him my combat log after each raid. Could it be that the unholy Dk needs to provide a log to show pets?
 
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Old 08/28/09, 8:03 PM   #1313
 Diello
Paid $12 for this title
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Fargom View Post
There should be a drop down box when you are looking at the Dashboard --> damage done for a boss fight. When I click the drop down box next to "fargom" I see which pets are assigned to me. I'm positive WOL is attribuiting my pets to me, there is no way I could burst to 8500 dps without pets included.

Question, to people having problems with pets showing up, are you actually submitting your own combat log to your guildmate who handles the parses? Being as I am the one with the pets, I always make sure to zip and send him my combat log after each raid. Could it be that the unholy Dk needs to provide a log to show pets?
My raid reports look the same as yours and a rogue supplied the combat log. WoL seems fine to me.
 
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Old 08/28/09, 10:00 PM   #1314
 frmorrison
Divine Protector
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Fargom View Post
Question, to people having problems with pets showing up, are you actually submitting your own combat log to your guildmate who handles the parses? Being as I am the one with the pets, I always make sure to zip and send him my combat log after each raid. Could it be that the unholy Dk needs to provide a log to show pets?
I guess the combat log needs to see the summon event or a buff event to know the pet is yours. For some of some wipe logs I have the pet wasn't showing up, but for Boss Kill logs WoL noticed the pet. I guess Kills are what matters, so it isn't a big deal.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 5:59 AM   #1315
Kalitari
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
2H Unholy shouldn't have GF.
I don't see why not. Taking one (1) point out of Desolation and put it into Ghoul Frenzy is fine. Sure, you lose a fraction of percentage of theoretical single-target damage, but in exchange you get more burst (needed for many fights) and an ability that can keep your ghoul alive and thus save you 30 seconds worth of lost ghoul dps in "pet-killer" fights where bosses like to blast your ghoul to oblivion with some nasty AoE.

After all, the actual damage you deliver in a fight is more important than the theoretical "what if?" damage you maybe could have delivered in laboratory environment.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 11:07 AM   #1316
Consider
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Laughing Skull
Ghoul Frenzy, although not worthless, is in no way more burst. To use GF as 2h Unholy you have three options:
1) Sacrifice an Obliterate for an Icy Touch + Ghoul Frenzy.
2) Sacrifice an Obliterate (off of Death Runes) for a Blood Strike + Ghoul Frenzy
3) Use Blood Tap.

Options 1 and 2 are obviously more front-loaded. Option 3 is the only way it can theoretically add more burst... but even then, you could simply use your Blood Tap on an additional Blood Strike, which would add almost as much damage as GF would do over its full duration in one GCD.

The three 'pros" GF does have is that
1) You can use it pre-combat/mid-phase-change at no actual opportunity cost, giving you some free dps.
2) You can use it to help keep your pet alive if you have trouble micromanaging or whatever.
3) It makes it a lot less annoying to build 130 RP before you enter combat (something which anyone worth their salt should be doing with or without GF).

So, yeah, GF certainly isn't worthless. It certainly isn't bad. Taking it is a personal choice - as much as taking IUP is. You do sacrifice dps to take it - both sustained and burst, and not just on paper but in reality as well. In return you gain the utility of a pet heal and an additional RP builder out of combat, and (on some fights) enough dps to make up for the lack of a point in Necrosis/Desolation.

Also, there's really no "pet-killer" fights, by the way. The only fight where I find my pet can get one shot/die regardless of how careful I am is on Yogg-0/1 phase 2. That's primarily because I have to take portals and pets just have horrible AI during that phase. Something always one shots it - a Crusher, a green beam, it randomy desapwning. No matter how much I try to control it. Such a bother, but alas, what can you do (aside from beg to not be sent in portals!).

But, yeah, keeping your pet up is fairly easy otherwise, thanks to its wonderful stam scaling. Even a Shock Blast won't one shot mine these days, assuming it has/I have full raid buffs and it's topped off.

Last edited by Consider : 08/29/09 at 11:13 AM.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 1:08 PM   #1317
 frmorrison
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Assuming your pet was in hurt too much, you can always throw a Death Coil at it. With raid buffs, the pet has more stamina than the master (assuming talent/glyph), so as you gear up GF's heal becomes less useful. There are so many smart heals nowadays that the old Ghoul will get a heal or two if he is really low on HP.

I like to save Blood Tap for Bone Shield.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 1:24 PM   #1318
level12wizard
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
While I'm a big fan of Unholy and have been playing it since the beginning of Naxx, arguing that it provides utility by reducing the amount of healing you require because you have Bone Shield is flawed logic. "Smart" heals will be wasted on your ghoul in many cases even if you are keeping Ghoul Frenzy up. Bone Shield does give you higher effective health and allows you to eat fire or pull threat without dying in some situations, it's almost never to the point of saving your life.

This is why I find Ghoul Frenzy has zero place in a 25 man raiding build, the heal utility is often nothing but overheal. It may have a place in ten mans where healing is tighter and you don't have everything like JoL, Imp LOTP, etc. If your pet is dying on any current fight in a 25 man raid with a full set of buffs, you're doing something wrong. Don't let pets eat void zones. Even on Yogg, it should be easy to keep it away from crushers/beams, and dismissing it after each brain phase so the 30s cooldown can start running is a simple practice.


As far as disease rolling with Glyph of Disease goes, it's pretty interesting. It seems to work for Frost, so I don't see why it wouldn't be even better for Unholy, considering the higher disease damage and the fact that you still Blood Strike for Desolation. You must consider the damage lost when setting up your super-diseases by starting off with disease-less strikes, the ramp up time required to set it up, etc. Not to mention the loss of Glyph of Dark Death, however, it seems to have some potential.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 3:11 PM   #1319
Consider
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Laughing Skull
The advantage of Bone Shield isn't that it causes you to require less healing, but that it lowers the chance that you'll die. There's a big difference between the two, and they aren't directly related. The first comes into play on stuff like Frozen Blows, the Animus aura, High Voltage, so on. The second is stuff like a "combo" on Freya (Static Charge + Ground Tremor + Sun Beam).

The first is largely unimportant - there is just so much overheal tossed around these days - but the second is the key. The second is what kills people. The second is what even the best healers can't always react to quick enough. The second is what BS can keep from almost ever being deadly.

I'm rather skeptical of the GoD talk for Unholy. Just because it works for Frost doesn't mean it would work for Unholy. The two are totally different. Sacrificing a glyph (and a strong one at that, as all three are rather important for Unholy), and then 5 RP + BS dmg + PS dmg + IT dmg every 20 seconds for 1 Obliterate + somewhat higher disease damage? I just don't see it working out. And, thus far, no one has been able to get a simulator or an actual parse to show it to be an increase. Not sure why people are so stuck on it. You can add 2 plus 2 as many times as you wish, it will never equal 5. Unless there is just something everyone has been missing this entire time.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 3:35 PM   #1320
Orothar
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Balnazzar (EU)
Originally Posted by level12wizard View Post
As far as disease rolling with Glyph of Disease goes, it's pretty interesting. It seems to work for Frost, so I don't see why it wouldn't be even better for Unholy, considering the higher disease damage and the fact that you still Blood Strike for Desolation. You must consider the damage lost when setting up your super-diseases by starting off with disease-less strikes, the ramp up time required to set it up, etc. Not to mention the loss of Glyph of Dark Death, however, it seems to have some potential.
The problem with unholy is that it isnt GCD starved like Frost. So you are effectively losing more dmg sources when using GoD in uunholy then u are in Frost. Add to that the importance all 3 glyphs for unholy, whereas Frost only really has 2 important Glyphs.

It could still be a dmg upgrade, as im pretty sure the simulators dont calculate rolling procenchanced diseases correctly atm. Its also a nice buff to Aoe situations and a good substitute for the ghoul Glyph in fights where your ghoul is gimped (Mimi HM, Yogg when going into portals).

It will have a lot more potential when 4PT9 comes into play though...
 
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Old 08/29/09, 4:58 PM   #1321
level12wizard
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
I agree that Bone Shield can save your life, although I feel the situations are far and few inbetween, it is better than nothing. But saying that Unholy requires less work from your healers because you take less damage is completely backwards thanks to Glacierthief and his love for eating Circle of Healing charges.

If GoDisease ends up being an increase it'll probably be pretty minor, but it's an interesting concept. Apparently due to the mechanics of GoD being similar to a Spriest refreshing SW:P with Mindflay it won't clip diseases like using IT/PS could, which is an inherit DPS increase. One thing that concerns me about its viability is that the proc chance of 2pc T9 is only 50%. If you're only doing one BS per 20 seconds then the uptime of that 180 STR buff would probably plummet thanks to RNG (even with the 45s ICD). I guess it's just something to test in a real raiding environment when 4pT9 is obtainable.

On a side note, is anyone sure if the Relentless Earthsiege meta actually works with spell crits? There are a lot of conflicting "confirmed" reports and it might be useful information with 4pT9.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 5:57 PM   #1322
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by level12wizard View Post
On a side note, is anyone sure if the Relentless Earthsiege meta actually works with spell crits? There are a lot of conflicting "confirmed" reports and it might be useful information with 4pT9.
Yes it does.

 
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Old 08/29/09, 6:34 PM   #1323
Consider
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Laughing Skull
So, I was up late last night, and figured I would work on a new 2h Unholy DPS OP. Just need to add the stat-weights (not entirely sure the ones I had were up-to-date, so calculating them now. If anybody does have up-to-date ones to save my computer the pain, it would be much appreciated, but no big deal. Laptop does not like calculating two sets of them side by side while I play Dota and have other junk going), and possibly add a section on macros, then I think it'll be done. Can always add more in-depth info and what have you over time, but this would at least take care of all of those basic questions (3/13/55 or 0/17/54? SS or Ob? What glyphs? Stat weights? What's the rotation? Etc) since the original post here is almost completely useless and, seemingly, no longer being updated.

If anyone wants to go through it and see if I missed anything, feel free to. Would be much appreciated.

If everything looks set, once I get the statweights I'll start up a new thread (provided this one is good to be closed). Unless, of course, someone else wants to handle it.




Contents
Hold Control + F, then enter in the number of the section you wish to skip down to. Or simply scroll!

I | Scourge Strike vs. Obliterate
II | Common Abbreviations
III | Specs & Runeforges
-- Accepted
-- “Optional” Talents
-- Runeforges
IV | Glyphs
-- Major
-- Minor
V | Generalized Rotation
-- Single Target
-- AoE
-- UP vs. BP
VI | Taking Advantage of AMS
-- Crusader's Colliseum
-- Ulduar
VII | Gearing & Stat Weights
-- Set bonuses
-- Sigils
VIII | Consumables & Cooldowns
-- Consumables
-- Cooldowns
IX | Professions
X | Unholy-Specific Macros
XI | Basic Combat Observations
XII | Valuable Resources
XIII | Credits
XIV | Edits/Changes

I | Scourge Strike vs. Obliterate
As of patch 3.2, Obliterate is superior to Scourge Strike in terms of PvE raid dps.

The individual hits of Obliterate may be smaller at certain gear points than the individual hits of Scourge Strike, however there are added benefits to Obliterate – almost 20% more Runic Power generation in the case of 0/17/54 (160 RP/20 seconds as opposed to the 135 RP/20 seconds of an Scourge Strike rotation) or a much higher crit rate in the case of 3/13/55 (15% crit for Obliterate from talents as opposed to only 9% crit for Scourge Strike from talents).

It doesn’t matter what Sigil you use, it doesn’t matter how much Armor Penetration you have, it doesn’t matter that you think it doesn’t make sense… Obliterate wins out, unless you are missing a crucial raid buff/debuff such as Sunder Armor (in which case you have other issues you need to work out!). Until something changes, this holds true. Don’t post complaining how Blizzard should immediately fix this oversight or how you’re going to use Scourge Strike despite it being inferior.

It is what it is. Live with it.


II | Common Abbreviations
AoE = Area of Effect
AMS = Anti-Magic Shell
APE = Attack Power Equivalence
BB = Blood Boil
BCB = Blood Caked Blade
BiS = Best in Slot
BP = Blood Presence
CC = Crusader’s Colliseum
DC = Death Coil
DK = Death Knight
DnD = Death and Decay
DPS = Damage per Second
FC = Rune of the Fallen Crusader
GCD = Global Cooldown
HoW = Horn of Winter
IT = Icy Touch
Ob = Obliterate
PS = Plague Strike
RP = Runic Power
SS = Scourge Strike
UB = Unholy Blight
UP = Unholy Presence

III | Specs
Cookie Cutter builds as of 3.2
Currently there are only two viable two hand Unholy dps specs. Until any drastic talent/ability changes go into effect, use one of these two outlines on how to spec. Don’t try some off the wall 20/20/31 spec. It won’t be worth it. Don’t bother asking people what they think of it either. You don’t want to know.

Unholy/Frost
0/17/54 - The best spec prior to the Crusader’s Coliseum. This build emphasizes Death Coil usage by increasing your Runic Power generation by 20% thanks to Chill of the Grave. Assuming you have [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart] and 2 piece tier 8, something every Unholy Death Knight should have pre-CC thanks to both being available from Emblems of Conquest, this spec will beat out any competitors by several hundred DPS. Death Coil should be your highest source of damage, followed by your Auto Attack and then Obliterate.

Unholy/Frost/Blood
3/13/55 – The best spec once you drop [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart] and 2 piece tier 8, which should happen once [Sigil of Virulence] and 4 piece tier 9 become available. Scales superlatively compared to 0/17/54 thanks to benefitting more from Armor Penetration. In addition to having superior dps once you meet the gearing requirements, this build has the added benefit of threat reduction, which leads to some people speccing it as soon as they get the new Sigil but before actually dropping 2 piece tier 8 (a ~0-50, depending on your armor pen, dps loss at that point, which is quite minor). Obliterate should be your highest source of damage, followed by your Auto Attack and then Death Coil.

Optional Talents
In both 0/17/54 and 3/13/55 you’ll have a few talent points floating around which can be spent largely according to personal preference. From a raw, single target sustained dps perspective, these points are best put into Desolation, however there are alternative talents with advantages of their own.
  • Necrosis – Strictly speaking, Necrosis is less dps per talent point spent than Desolation. However, unlike Desolation, Necrosis will benefit you while AoEing (Desolation does not, due to your Blood runes being spent on Pestilence, Blood Boil, or Death and Decay instead of Blood Strike). As well, in fights with constant phase changes, Necrosis will pull ahead due to always being active. Desolation doesn’t have a 100% uptime, even in the best of circumstances. The dps difference between the two in any scenario is going to be extremely minor, so it is primarily up to the individual.
  • Ghoul Frenzy – This talent should only be taken if you have trouble keeping your Ghoul alive. If you do, it becomes invaluable, as a dead Ghoul is a large portion of your dps down the drain (due to 30 seconds of absolutely zero Ghoul damage, followed by your Ghoul doing reduced damage for the remainder of the fight from missing buffs). If you don’t have issues with your Ghoul going down, then skip this talent. In nearly every case it will be a dps loss.
  • Improved Unholy Presence – Improved Unholy Presence is only considered due to the run speed increase – the benefits to Unholy Presence itself aren’t enough to put it ahead of Blood Presence, and as such are ignored. How much of a dps boost the run speed increase itself is is very difficult to calculate. The value varies drastically from fight to fight. The best option to determine its worth is to try it out yourself, see if you notice a difference and, if you do, decide whether or not it is worth the two talent point. There is no right and wrong answer as to whether or not you should spec into IUP.

Runeforges
There is currently only one viable Runeforge for PvE DPS: Rune of the Fallen Crusader.
The alternatives do not even come close.


IV | Glyphs
Major
Minor
The major glyphs are set in stone for two hand Unholy. No matter which of the “optional” talents you take, no matter what gear level you are currently at, you’ll use the same three major glyphs. All three are fairly substantial dps increases. If you feel like testing others out, the weakest of the three is [Glyph of Dark Death].

None of the minor glyphs will have any large impact on your dps, so which you choose is largely up to you. Glyph of Pestilence is the one exception – although it won’t increase your dps in theory or in a simulator, a 50% range increases on Pestilence is generally considered a godsend for AoEing, and to go without it would be rather silly.


V | Generalized Rotations
Single Target

PS – IT – Ob – BS – BS – DC – HoW
Ob – Ob – DC – Ob – DC – (DC)

As 0/17/54, you will always be able to get off that fourth DC. As 3/13/55, however, you will usually only have the RP for three DCs per twenty second rotation, hence the parenthesis.

In situations where you have additional RP thanks to Anti-Magic Shell, Revitalize, or Rapture, you can fit in an extra DC at the very end of your rotation and/or drop the HoW (depending on exactly how much additional RP you gained).

Multi-Target / AoE

PS – IT – Pestilence – DnD – DC
Ob – BB – BB – Ob – DC – DC

There’s not a ton to say about the AoE rotation – it’s rather simple, and there isn’t much variation about it. One common mistake players make is to Death and Decay before spreading their diseases. Doing so is a bad move (from a dps point of view. Tanking is another matter). Although it might seem like a dps gain to use Death and Decay initially so it is off cooldown sooner, it loses a lot of damage if your diseases aren’t on the target (15% from Rage of Rivendare, 13% from Ebon Plague, so on). As well, spreading your diseases sooner means more raid dps thanks to Ebon Plague.

Unholy Presence vs. Blood Presence
As far as two handed Unholy goes, Blood Presence is always superior. Even with IUP, you simply won’t be able to use enough of the additional GCDs to make up the gap between the two presences.


VI | Taking Advantage of AMS
Ignored or forgotten by many, Anti-Magic Shell not only absorbs magic damage, it also produces Runic Power based on the damage absorbed. More Runic Power translates directly into more damage and, as such, the proper use of AMS is a skill essential for a DK wishing to perform to their very best. Darkside did such a great job of explaining this for frost DKs so most of this is a reprint of his comments.

Trial of the Crusader
This is still new. This section subject to a lot of change.
Northrend Beasts
There are some explosions during P1 that you can soak some RP from, this is a standard tank and spank, so there aren't a ton of very useful times to use AMS. In P2 (not one, but TWO jormungars) I would save AMS for when you get a cluster of fire debuffs. This can happen on a few occasions, and will provide you with plenty of RP, and take a little pressure off of your healers. I can't say for certain whether or not AMS will save you from frost breath in P3, if someone gets conclusive results.

Lord Jaraxxus
If your guild uses the strategy of "sit in the flames" for the fire trail debuff you will probably want to hold onto your AMS in case you should get it. Otherwise the best time to use it would be when infernals are close.

Ulduar
Flame Leviathan
N/A

Razorscale
P1: Run through a fire patch on your way over to Razorscale after she's been harpooned.
P2: There is usually a flame patch in the near vicinity of the boss, simply hop in that every 45s.

Ignis
Simply time AMS for use right after he finishes his Flame Jets cast. Know that if you use AMS before the cast is finished you won't receive the debuff and will therefore generate far less RP than you could otherwise. Additionally, you want to start burning RP as soon as you start gaining it, or you will quickly become capped, and waste the extra RP from AMS.

XT
If you feel like playing risky and enjoy pissing your healers off, you can elect to follow a light-bombed melee as they run out of the group. Otherwise, save AMS for when you get bombed.

Kologarn
Wait until Shockwave comes off of cool down then, pop AMS and pray that he uses the ability within 5s seconds (he usually does).

Assembly of Iron
Steelbreaker: The High Voltage aura makes this fight one of the best for consist RP generation through AMS. Simply use AMS every time it is off cooldown and enjoy the free damage.
Molgriem:You'll have to wait for a Rune of Death on the melee group and use AMS as you leave.
Brundir: Lightning Tendrils is the best source of reliable magic damage. You can also take advantage of Overload, though know that you will suffer a 2s knockdown. Since it typically takes a second or two to get back in, this is pretty much a wash.

Auriaya
Wait for a fear and then dance through a void zone on your way back to the melee clump.

Hodir
Save AMS for Frozen Blows. Real ballers can also get 2-3 stacks of Biting Cold at the same time, though your healers will complain, as will the rest of your raid for ruining their achievement! An alternative is to use AMS when he casts Flash Freeze, as it will allow you to stay on the boss without getting frozen.

Thorim
P1: Wait for a Stormhammer cast and hope that you're standing near the target.
P2: Instead of moving out, just sit in and soak the Lightning Charges.

Freya
P1: Sunbeam, if you can move close enough to the target in a timely fashion. There's also Nature's Fury.
P2: Not much, as the bombs will tend to blow you away from the boss and should thus be avoided.

Mimiron
P1: Find an isolated land mine and trigger it on your way back to the boss from a Shock Blast.
P2: Use AMS immedietly after you see Heat Wave pulse to make your healers happier.
P3: Bomb bot explosions are the only source of magic damage.
P4: Use AMS whenever it is off cooldown. Odds are, you will be targeted by Hand Pulse sometime during the duration.

Due to having to weave in and out a lot on the Mimiron encounter, this is a great fight to try to maximize your RP through AMS, additionally there are lots of way to die, so avoiding death is always your greatest DPS gain!

Vezax
This is the only fight in Ulduar without reliable AoE magic damage.

Yogg-Saron
P1: If your guild elects to tank all the guardians in the center, you can use AMS to soak their detonations.
P2: There is lots of shadow damage if you're in the portal group (hint: you should be) from Grim Reprisal.
P3: Nothing here, as you should not be getting hit with Lunatic Gaze.


VII | Gearing and Stat Weights
The most important stat for Unholy DKs has always been Strength. Regardless of spec, regardless of gear, this has always remained true. Now that the ghoul benefits properly from it, Hit actually comes very close and, depending on your gear, may indeed be superior - the catch being it's all but useless once you hit the melee cap.

The following are the currently accepted stat weights for Unholy DKs:
Stat 0/17/54 3/13/55
Attack Power 1.00 1.00
Weapon DPS 6.03 6.50
Hit Rating (until cap) 3.52 3.52
Strength 3.07 3.07
Expertise Rating 2.19 2.31
Armor Penetration 1.55 1.74
Haste Rating 1.46 1.43
Crit Rating 1.36 1.46
Agility 0.73 0.85
Hit Rating (to spell hit cap) 0.63 0.57

The BiS gear lists based on these stats are located here, courtesy of norg.

Hit and Expertise:
Unholy has the least GCD constrained rotation of any DK spec, so don’t go out of your way to cap hit and/or expertise. Simply choose the best pieces based on the individual stat weights and the weights of the set bonuses. Hit and Expertise are both highly rated anyways, so chances are you will cap both (or come close) in Best in Slot gear, regardless.

Set Bonuses
These are the average weights of the set bonuses for Unholy DKs. Unlike the overall stat weights, the set weights don’t drastically change between 3/13/55 and 0/17/54, so there is no need to included two tables of weights and differentiate between the specs. As you can see, T9 four piece is absolutely incredible for Unholy (and Blood/Frost, for that matter), and the sooner you can attain it, the better.

Set Bonus APE
T7-2p 77
T7-4p 212
T8-2p 110
T8-4p 144
T9-2p 133
T9-4p 626

Sigils
The best Sigil for Unholy DKs is [Sigil of Virulence]. This is true whether you are specced 3/13/55 or 0/17/54. With an 80% proc rate, a 10 second internal cooldown, and a 20 second duration, it will easily have a 90%+ uptime. [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart] comes in second place by about 100-200 dps.

If you have access to neither of those, [Sigil of Awareness] is your next best bet, although it’s a somewhat distant third.


VIII | Consumbles and Cooldowns
Consumables
Flask: [Flask of Endless Rage]
Potion: [Potion of Speed]
Food: [Dragonfin Filet]

Cooldowns
As an Unholy DK, you only have two cooldowns - Army of the Dead and Summon Gargoyle. AotD has an entire thread discussing how to use it to its fullest potential and such, so I won’t touch upon it here.

Summon Gargoyle isn't terribly complex in its use. Your Gargoyle scales with your attack power and haste based on the moment is was cast, and will retain those exact stats for its entire duration. Try to wait on using it until all of your procs coincide, however, don't let this make you miss an opportunity to cast it. Summoning your Gargoyle three times in a fight is better than only summoning it twice, regardless of procs. As such, figure out how many times you'll be able to use it based on the fight length. Try and use it at some point during Heroism's duration - it needs to be popped AFTER Heroism is cast, while the buff is active on you, to benefit (unlike a Moonkin's treants). This is also the time to pop your Potion of Speed.

Also remember, your Gargoyle has horrid AI. It will not attack Yogg-saron’s brain if summoned within the brain room (but will attack the brain if you summon it before entering the brain room) and will (usually) only melee XT Deconstructor’s Heart. Get familiar with odd instances such as these; know when your Gargoyle will and will not attack, so you don't waste 60 RP.

Your Gargoyle will follow the same commands you give your Ghoul (i.e, follow, stay, attack, etc), so you can move it out of AoEs such as Shock Blast – however you are best off simply waiting until immediately after such spells to go off to summon it.


IX | Professions
If you are looking to make gold, I don't care, this isn't the section for you. If you have lots of gold to spend, and want to maximize the effectiveness of your DK, it's going to be expensive.

Jewelcrafting
Compared to the non-JC versions of [Bold Cardinal Ruby], you will be gaining a total of 42 strength through JC. This not only makes it the strongest profession in terms of total stats gained, but also the most flexible.

Blacksmithing
The two free sockets you get, gloves and bracers, allow the use of two more +20 STR gems, for a total benefit of 40 Strength. This is close to the benefit you see from J/C'ing and while expensive, the combination of Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting is the best 2 professions you can select.

Engineering
I'll set aside engineering b/c some people just like it, and I can't hold that against them. The only real advantage engineers get are the Hand Mounted Pyro Rockets and Hyperspeed Accellerators. Both of these are solid glove bonuses, and if engineering got anything else, could make it a competitive choice, popping speed pots, bloodlust, and the Hyperspeed Accellerators is a blast.

Enchanting
2 ring enchants at 40 AP a pop, a total of 80 AP

Leatherworking
130 AP to bracers, note that you CANNOT stack this with the 50 AP bracer enchant, so the net gain here is 80 AP.

Inscription
120 AP 15 crit shoulder enchant, a gain of 80 AP.

Alchemy
An additional 80 AP in a raid setting (or 40 str outside of a raid, thanks to Flask of the North) as well as increased Flask duration. Similar in value to the others.

Skinning
40 crit rating, incredibly weak for dps.

Tailoring
The tailoring cloak enchant, Swordguard Embroidery, grants 400 AP for 15 seconds, which averages out to ~100 AP over time. When you subtract from this the lost haste, it comes out behind all of the above professions. It does have a slight advantage in the sense that you can time the proc with others for a stronger Gargoyle, but that doesn’t significantly increase its worth.

Mining
60 stamina, useless for dps.

Herbalism
Self heal, useless for dps.

X | Unholy-Specific Macros
Ghoul jump to safety
#showtooltip Leap
/cast [target=healersname] Leap
/petstay

Rune Strike with any ability
#showtooltip WhateverAbility
/cast !Rune Strike
/cast WhateverAbility

Raise Ally without targetting a specific corpse
/cast [target=party1,exists,dead] Raise Ally; [target=party2,exists,dead] Raise Ally; [target=party3,exists,dead] Raise Ally; [target=party4,exists,dead] Raise Ally
Cast Death Coil on your target or, if you are holding shift, cast Death Coil on your pet, healing it
#showtooltip Death Coil
/cast [mod:shift,target=pet] Death Coil; Death Coil

An elementary Gargoyle Macro
#showtooltip Summon Gargoyle
/use potion of speed
/use trinket 13
/use trinket 14
/cast Summon Gargoyle

Refreshing Bone Shield without breaking your rotation
#showtooltip Bone Shield
/cast Blood Tap
/stopcasting
/cast Bone Shield
/cancelaura Blood Tap


XI | Basic Combat Observations
Some elementary numbers to remember when raiding
  • Glancing blows (only on bosses) happen 24% of the time on autoattacks and cannot be critical hits. A glancing blow deals 70% damage.
  • You need 8% (7% if you have a Draenei) hit to be 2H melee white (auto) and yellow (special) attack hit capped against bosses.
  • The spell hit cap is 17% - However the only dps skills that are affected by this are Death Coil, Icy Touch, Death and Decay, Pestilence and Blood Boil.
  • You need 26 expertise (6.50%) to be expertise soft capped which means your attacks will no longer be dodged.
  • All melee classes suffer a 4.8% crit suppression vs bosses when using melee attacks.
  • All spell attacks have a 3% crit suppression vs bosses.


XII | Valuable Resources
Kahorie’s DK Simulator
An amazing tool. Curious how much dps you should be doing relative to your gear level? Curious whether or not it’s time for you to transition specs? Curious what your personal stat weights are? The simulator can tell you all of that and more.

Zerack’s DK Gear Optimizer
The spreadsheet ideal. Wondering whether or not you should bother getting hit/expertise capped, despite what it says here? Wondering what is Best in Slot of the items you already have or already have access to? Wondering whether it’s worth grabbing that socket bonus or not? These spreadsheets can tell you all of that and then keep calculating.

Rawr - for DPS DKs
An alternative to Kahorie's and Zerack's. Pondering which drop to blow your dkp on? Pondering if it's worth sacrificing an upgrade or two to keep that set bonus? Pondering if that new item, despite having purple text, is actual an upgrade? This program can tell you all of that and then keep informing.

Zenos’ Raid Tested uses of AotD
Believe it or not, but an informative thread. Want to know when it’s safe to pop AotD without all of your minions immediately dying? Want to know when it’s most optimal to pop AotD to take advantage of encounter-specific mechanics? Want to know when it’s the smallest dps to channel your AotD? This thread can tell you all of that and then some.


XIII | Credits
Credit to Norg, Afabar, and Zerack. If not for these three, there would be no agreed upon stat weights, optimal gear sets, or any of that. This thread – and the Blood and Frost counterparts – would be so much less precise if it weren’t for these guys.
Credit to Soilantgreen64 for his work on the Blood DPS thread, his permission to use a very similar format, and his profession break down.
Credit to Darkside for the AMS utilization section and the original formatting of the Blood DPS thread and, as such, of this one.
Credit to all other contributions, big and small, and my apologies for not noting them here.


XIV | Edits
[1]: 08.29.09 Thread Launched

Last edited by Consider : 08/30/09 at 1:26 PM.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 8:19 PM   #1324
Meygaera
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dalaran
I like this a lot. It's great how you gave quick mini break downs of what ability should be highest damage for both specs. Blizzard will most likely buff SS or make Oblit less appealing for unholy in the future but I think the need for a new unholy thread has been long over due.
 
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Old 08/29/09, 11:15 PM   #1325
diospadre
Hero of the Horde
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Much like scourge strike, those green headings have got to go.
 
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