Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 70

JJR512 · 08/05/09, 1:59 AM

So this 0-17-54 build seems to be all the rage right now, and Obliterate > SS, Sigil of Vengeful Heart > Sigil of Awareness, etc.

But this is all based on ultra-high-end gear, BiS basically. I am not nearly there yet; mostly T7/T7.5 level stuff, mostly iLevel 200 or nearabouts. (The World of Warcraft Armory if you care to see the actual gear.)

So my question, now that my talents are reset and it's time to spec again: At a lower level of gear, such as mine, ~200, is this 0-17-54 still my best bet, or is there something more effective down at this level?

Before anyone says "Use the simulator!" please let me first point out that Macs (which I use) do not like .exe files...

Any thoughts/suggestions/tips/ideas/etc. are greatly appreciated!

Consider · 08/05/09, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by Derivel

You can still use BT to refresh it, no? That's how I always use it.

Oh, certainly. But there are a couple flaws with that:
1) BT is a minute cooldown, cutting how often you use GF in half.
2) Using BT on GF means you can't use it on BS and other such things.

Don't get me wrong, I came to love GF when I was 0/10/61, but it isn't because it's a raw dps increase, simply a convenience/utility increase. The best part about it, in my opinion, is it makes it much easier/quicker to generate 130 RP before a pull, which is most annoying to do. But, it's also great on fights with phase changes - Mimiron hard - where you can freely use it without losing any dps whatsoever.

Fugazor · 08/05/09, 6:16 AM

If simulations will confirm on live then I see 0/17/54 being nerfed with one of the first "3.2.x" bug fix patches - not even because higher dps but rather because of dev vision (Unholy + OB = nein!).

Also Desolation is better than Necrosis for two reasons:
- it also increases aoe damage
- works better with any "superpower" buffs (Thaddius, sparks, Yogg etc.)

Consider · 08/05/09, 6:26 AM

Desolation affecting AoE is a valid point.

Desolation working better with "superpower" buffs is not. As long as said buffs increase your white damage by the same proportion as they increase your yellow damage (as is the case on Yogg or Thaddius, but not Hodir), then it won't favor one talent over the other. Necrosis itself might not benefit from power increases - in other words, it might not double dip - but as long as your white damage is increased, so will be Necrosis.

Edit: Actually, Desolation benefiting AoE more than Necrosis is probably not the case, come to think of it =p. In an aoe environment, when are you using Blood runes on Blood Strike? You aren't - you're spending them on Death and Decay, Pestilence, or Blood Boil. Sacrificing a Blood Boil for a Blood Strike to proc Desolation probably isn't a net damage gain (depends on the number of targets, of course). As such, Necrosis would actually be the one to pull ahead in AoE.

This wasn't the case with the previous Desecration since you were still using PS and SS while AoEing. With only BS proccing the buff now, however, yeah. They probably should add Blood Boil to the talent, but ah well.

<3 Necrosis.

Paine · 08/05/09, 8:17 AM

well isnt the obvious thing to do use one bloodstrike and then one pestilence to spread diseases, thus getting the best of both worlds?

evr · 08/05/09, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Paine

well isnt the obvious thing to do use one bloodstrike and then one pestilence to spread diseases, thus getting the best of both worlds?

Well given the situation a 5% damage increase might not add up enough to top a Blood Boil with a lot of targets with diseases, making it situational. Where to pull the line between a net 5% increase and an extra Blood Boil I can't really say, but short fights with lots of mobs for AoE I doubt it'd be worth using a Blood Strike over a Blood Boil.

Paine · 08/05/09, 8:57 AM

For sure its situational like most things. You would perhaps only use it BEFORE adds spawn (say for example on Freya) and only when the mobs are up a decent amount of time for it to be worth it. But with good timing you can really utilize it even for aoe.

zinlyte · 08/05/09, 9:56 AM

If i understood right, Unholy DPS can be competitive in 3.2 PvE with using Obliterate instead of SS. What about gear then? Should we start stacking ArP or keep using haste? There has been some discussion about it, but didnt see any real conclusion.

Blackteddy · 08/05/09, 10:01 AM

My ability damage done is much different than the simulation posted by vank in 1002. My DC was my most damaging abilities. But I've been pretty much using DC everytime I have used 2 - 4 runes and have the runic power to spend.

I'm guessing that simulation is just following the old SS rottaion with Obliterate in SS place?

Mortak · 08/05/09, 10:04 AM

Regarding 3/13/55 vs. 0/17/54

I did some tests as well. They more or less confirmed the previous results. But when switching to the new sigil and when losing the 2pc T8 Bonus 3/13/55 pulls closer. Combined with the fact that you have aggro reduce with this specc and can specc für 2/2 IUP i will most likely prefer 3/13/55 longterm.

Vengefull Heart + 2pc T8:
0/17/54: 6853 DPS
3/13/53: 6719 DPS

Sigil of Virulence no 2pc T8:
0/17/54: 6951 DPS
3/13/55: 6899 DPS

All simulations with 100ms latency and 500h simulationtime.

Xzatly · 08/05/09, 11:21 AM

Anyone can link 0/17/54 spec please?
Because previous link doesnt work anymore, thanks !

Mortak · 08/05/09, 11:23 AM

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

Alyse · 08/05/09, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Xzatly

Anyone can link 0/17/54 spec please?
Because previous link doesnt work anymore, thanks !

0/17/54

Points in Icy Reach can be moved to Lichborne (or whatever you want); 5/5 Necrosis can be swapped for 5/5 Desolation.

Hogkar · 08/05/09, 11:25 AM

edit: there's a mistake in the rotations above : HoW can't be up twice in the second part.
It means you get only 7 DC with goDD vs 9 DC with goIT.
Starting at 0 RP, goIT > goDD on the DC dps business !
However you have no circonstantial bonuses like resplenishement or AMS etc

hello !

<< insert any "long time reader, first time poster" here >>
<< insert any "non english nativ speaker, please forgive my mistakes" here >>

I read all or almost all the posts above, I'm affraid I didn't see anything on the following point.

About the 0/17/54 template, I was wondering about using glyph of Icy Touch instead of the dark death one, and using GF every 30 sec or so.

I tried to describe 2 scenarii, first with goDD, second with goIT
One both scenarii, you'll find that the timeline, based on BP GCD, fails into matching the Rune Refresh system. It has to be reevaluate around number of GCD we really have to wait in order to complete theses rotations.

--------------------------------
Scenario 1)
Glyph Dark Death: 15% DC.
1 DC = 40 RP

1 extra DC = 7 * 15%, so 7 * 40 = 280 RP
Every 280 RP, 1 free DC.

Below the 3 rows : Ability / RP / Time (BP, 1,5s GCD)

GF BT PS IT BS BS OB Horn DC

10 20 30 45 55 65 90 100 60

+0 +1.5 +3 +4.5 +6 +7.5 +9 +10.5 +12

phase 2 :

GCD OB DC OB DC OB DC

60 85 45 55 15 40 0

+13.5 +15 +16.5 +18 +19.5 +21 +22.5

time to refresh :

PS IT BS BS IT GF Horn DC

10 25 35 45 60 70 80 40

+24 +25.5 +27 +28.5 +30 +31.5 +33 +34.5

phase 2 :

OB DC OB DC OB Horn DC

65 25 50 10 35 45 5

+36 +37.5 +39 +40.5 +42 +43.5 +45

With this scenario, you get 8 DC at 115% dmg in 45sec.

-------------------------
scenario 2)
Glyph of IT : +10 RP, 4 IT gives 1 extra DC

GF IT PS IT BS BS OB Horn DC

10 30 40 65 75 85 110 120 80

+0 +1.5 +3 +4.5 +6 +7.5 +9 +10.5 +12

GCD OB DC OB DC OB DC

60 105 65 90 50 75 35

+13.5 +15 +16.5 +18 +19.5 +21 +22.5

Time to refresh

PS IT BS BS DC IT GF Horn DC

45 70 80 90 50 75 85 90 50

+24 +25.5 +27 +28.5 +30 +31.5 +33 +34.5 +36

OB DC OB DC OB DC

75 35 60 20 65 25

+37.5 +39 +40.5 +42 +43.5 +45

With this scenario, you get 9 DC at 100% dmg in 45sec

About Crit chance:

goDD : 8 DC * 1,15 (dmg multiplier) + (8 DC) * 1.15 * ( 2 (crit) * 0,3 (base crit chance)) = 14.72 DC
goIT : 9* 1 + 9 * 1 * 2 * 0.3 = 14.4 DC

In regards of theses calculations, it seems goDD > goIT by a very few margin.
Both maintaining GF up all the time.

But the ramp up is faster with goIT.
I don't have time yet to go further into calculation but it seems glyph of IT could be superior after 1 mn of fight.

You finish the 4th rotation with goDD at 5 RP and 25 RP for goIT.
The question should be resolve by drawing the 2 curves and knowing where one cross the other (if any)

My feeling is (just feeling as long as theses calculations are not EJ-proof ) :
The more GCD would occur, the more goIT would take advantage over goDD.
The longer the figth is, the better goIT could become.

(ps : My arrays failed to be clear...)

Xzatly · 08/05/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Alyse

0/17/54

Points in Icy Reach can be moved to Lichborne (or whatever you want); 5/5 Necrosis can be swapped for 5/5 Desolation.

I don't know why but your link doesnt work too.
Your link = 0/17/33 for me, is it me or wowhead bug for everyone ?