Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 74

RiceCake · 08/06/09, 8:28 PM

Switching from a 0/10/61 in 3.1 to a 0/17/54 spec in 3.2 has net me around a 500dps increase on no-movement single target fights, which is roughly 8%. After fighting the Northrend Beasts though, the benefit of iUP really came through in my eyes. While fighting the Jormungar Duo and Icehowl, which both knock melee back, I found myself constantly aching for the run speed increase as I tried to get back to the boss. To balance it all, I spec'd 3/5 Necrosis, 3/5 desolation, and 2/2 iUP, which seems to be a decent spread between benefiting non movement fights and movement fights.

Amaurea · 08/06/09, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

To those saying they've lost dps with that spec, post parses or something. Otherwise it's just anecdotal tidbits which may or may not be true, but don't actually show anything. Besides, if you post a parse, others can point out what you did wrong.

Mathmatically speaking though, 3.2 0/17/54 Obliterate > 3.1 0/10/61 Scourge Strike. Simulations and theorycrafting both support this. If you aren't seeing that in your personal performance, it is most likely something you are doing incorrectly (I don't mean that meanly, just as a matter of fact).

No worries on my end at least. I've never seen bad info given, so I"m pretty sure it's something to do with me or my rotation. Unfortunately I did not log it last night but I will in a couple weeks when I raid again *going on vaca*

My rotation is: PS-IT-BS-BS-OB-DC-Horn-Pest-OB-DC-OB-DC-OB-DC-OB-DC... then repeat

I am noticing tonight while raiding that I dont think I was using pest yesterday trying to get used to the main rotation and didnt' even realize it. With my top dps gear I am at 13% ArPen but if I read correctly it should be over the SS build even with that but goes up even more the more ArPen you have. I have swapped out better dps pieces for two ArPen pieces that puts me at 26% tonight, we'll see how that goes

Seref · 08/06/09, 11:56 PM

Is there a ArP minimum one needs to reach before oblitbuild overtakes ss? or is it always better, and more ArP just makes it even better?

And what about Subversion? The crit% to oblit seems good.

Forswear · 08/07/09, 12:17 AM

Just wondering,have there been any threat issues with 0/17/54?I'm currently using 3/13/55(Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and I havent encountered any threat issues yet on the bosses of ToC.

Garkbit · 08/07/09, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Amaurea

My rotation is: PS-IT-BS-BS-OB-DC-Horn-Pest-OB-DC-OB-DC-OB-DC-OB-DC... then repeat

Uh, can you explain how you're using pestilence in your rotation? I must be missing something because for the life of me I can't figure how out you're using pestilence after using both blood runes, and why it would even make sense to use. There must be something I'm not getting.

mutagen · 08/07/09, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Seref

Is there a ArP minimum one needs to reach before oblitbuild overtakes ss? or is it always better, and more ArP just makes it even better?

My DK alt wearing a mix of ilvl 200 and 213 gear sims out at just over 4900 DPS using either 0/10/61 or 0/17/54 with little or no ArP. However, one anecdotal data point isn't a good answer, I'd suggest simming your stats to confirm. I also got my IUP variant wrong and need to fix my 0/17/54 spec.

I'm curious about how the two specs compare without full raid buffs. My alt is often DPSing in 10s that may or may not have a decent composition and I need to see how the lack of major / minor armor debuffs would affect the comparison.

Derivel · 08/07/09, 1:37 AM

I haven't seen any mention of this here, but my DC is only costing me 31 RP right now. I'm guessing the rune of Dark Death is the culprit, though its tooltip still says it's just damage increase. Has anyone else noticed this? Raiding right now, I will do some tests to see if I can isolate it later.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/07/09, 2:08 AM

Originally Posted by Derivel

I haven't seen any mention of this here, but my DC is only costing me 31 RP right now. I'm guessing the rune of Dark Death is the culprit, though its tooltip still says it's just damage increase. Has anyone else noticed this? Raiding right now, I will do some tests to see if I can isolate it later.

I can't copy that. Did you have the glyph equipped while patching?

Derivel · 08/07/09, 3:05 AM

I did indeed.

Edit: My weekend is pretty full, but I'll try to work through things on the dummy tomorrow. Some sort of bug with the DD glyph must be the culprit. I also had the frost strike glyph on my secondary spec, but a cross-spec contamination seems unlikely.

Alyse · 08/07/09, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Forswear

Just wondering,have there been any threat issues with 0/17/54?I'm currently using 3/13/55(Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and I havent encountered any threat issues yet on the bosses of ToC.

From the simulation I ran here, the TPS is around 4850, which should be easily manageable by any half decent tank. You'll most likely need to throttle a bit upon the start of AoE packs (ie. not DnDing right away), but you should have no threat problems on single targets.

Melizande · 08/07/09, 6:26 AM

Originally Posted by Garkbit

Uh, can you explain how you're using pestilence in your rotation? I must be missing something because for the life of me I can't figure how out you're using pestilence after using both blood runes, and why it would even make sense to use. There must be something I'm not getting.

I can only guess that (he) is using Glyph of Disease, which would just be such a waste of a Major Glyph.
On one hand, you'd get an extra obliterate, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't generate as much runic power, and what glyph could you possibly trade out for it? I can't imagine the benefit of fitting that glyph in would ever outweigh the cost.

jonamur · 08/07/09, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by JJR512

So this 0-17-54 build seems to be all the rage right now, and Obliterate > SS, Sigil of Vengeful Heart > Sigil of Awareness, etc.

But this is all based on ultra-high-end gear, BiS basically. I am not nearly there yet; mostly T7/T7.5 level stuff, mostly iLevel 200 or nearabouts. (The World of Warcraft Armory if you care to see the actual gear.)

So my question, now that my talents are reset and it's time to spec again: At a lower level of gear, such as mine, ~200, is this 0-17-54 still my best bet, or is there something more effective down at this level?

Before anyone says "Use the simulator!" please let me first point out that Macs (which I use) do not like .exe files...

Any thoughts/suggestions/tips/ideas/etc. are greatly appreciated!

This is my The World of Warcraft Armory

So you can see my gear is not great, (ignore the weapons I logged out in my frost dual wield weapons, should be Inevitable Defeat,) so from what the poster above said is this 0/17/54 spec still viable for a not uber kitted DK?

Ðemøsthenes · 08/07/09, 9:57 AM

with regards to the 17/54 build... how much dps does necrosis add to the equation a static dps? would three point in subversion be a dps upgrade over it with the crit to oblit? also has anyone had any threat issues running 17/54?

Derivel · 08/07/09, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Alyse

From the simulation I ran here, the TPS is around 4850, which should be easily manageable by any half decent tank. You'll most likely need to throttle a bit upon the start of AoE packs (ie. not DnDing right away), but you should have no threat problems on single targets.

Definitely be a little careful with strong AOE packs. I died in Thorim's arena on every attempt but one last night because I was pushing as hard as I could. Anything that dies quickly shouldn't be too much of a problem though. Razorscale's adds, for instance, don't stay up long and don't hurt that much. Thorim's can kick your ass in a few seconds, though.

In a tank and spank situation you should have zero problem even if the tank isn't putting out 100% of their possible threat.

slant · 08/07/09, 11:55 AM

Running the simulator with my character's stats (ulduar25 without hardmodes) rather than one of the specs provided in the sim, 3/13/55 beat 0/17/54 by roughly 50 DPS with all three sigils. The additional thread reduction and runspeed made it an easy decision.

This is a great example why it's important that everybody run the simulator themselves rather than blindly adopting the cookie-cutter spec, as that spec may not be optimal for your gear level.