Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!) - Page 75

Consider · 08/07/09, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by slant

Running the simulator with my character's stats (ulduar25 without hardmodes) rather than one of the specs provided in the sim, 3/13/55 beat 0/17/54 by roughly 50 DPS with all three sigils. The additional thread reduction and runspeed made it an easy decision.

This is a great example why it's important that everybody run the simulator themselves rather than blindly adopting the cookie-cutter spec, as that spec may not be optimal for your gear level.

It's also a great example of why you should post numbers/parses/simulations yourself, when you disagree with what everyone else has already shown. All of the other simulations have shown that 0/17/54 is superior to 3/13/55 (until you drop 2pt8 and the SotVH, anyways). Perhaps you did something wrong with your simulation? Perhaps your gear is from being specced blood, and thus is stacking armor pen to a high amount, which although not as inferior as it used to be, still isn't the most optimal route (and not what most Unholy players are coming from)? Perhaps this, perhaps that.

Proof/support. Gotta have it, and 0/17/54 does. Everything everyone has done (and posted) shows 3/13/55 being subpar, and that may not be the case, but thus far, it would seem so, and one can't claim otherwise without numbers.

slant · 08/07/09, 1:02 PM

Certainly. I hope this answers your questions. I would appreciate any assistance if I am in fact running the sim incorrectly.

I'm running DKsim 0.9.9, in blood presence and fallen crusader enchant, 200ms latency, 48 hour simulation times, with draenei aura and bloodlust deactivated. I tried all three sigils and ran each sim multiple times.

Templates:
3/13/55
0/17/54

Character (Ulduar25 non-hardmode geared, unholy 3.1 optimized with little ArP)

<character>
	<stat>
		<Strength>1604</Strength>
		<Agility>125</Agility>
		<Intel>43</Intel>
		<Armor>13851</Armor>
		<AttackPower>235</AttackPower>
		<HitRating>259</HitRating>
		<CritRating>744</CritRating>
		<HasteRating>237</HasteRating>
		<ArmorPenetrationRating>180</ArmorPenetrationRating>
		<ExpertiseRating>184</ExpertiseRating>
	</stat>
	<weapon>
		<count>1</count>
		<mainhand>
			<dps>232.5</dps>
			<speed>3.4</speed>
		</mainhand>
		<offhand>
			<dps>1</dps>
			<speed>1</speed>
		</offhand>
	</weapon>
	<EP><base>50</base></EP>
	<Set>
		<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
		<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
		<T82PDPS>1</T82PDPS>
		<T84PDPS>1</T84PDPS>
		<T92PDPS>0</T92PDPS>
		<T72PTNK>0</T72PTNK>
		<T74PTNK>0</T74PTNK>
		<T82PTNK>0</T82PTNK>
		<T84PTNK>0</T84PTNK>
	</Set>
	<ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>1</ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>

Priority:
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<Obliterate></Obliterate>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>

Woy · 08/07/09, 1:20 PM

Slant, have you tried running the sim again with the DeathCoilMaxRp priority from post 1006?
Unholy Gains Shadow of Death (Unholy DPS Discussion now with more 3.2!)

It might make the difference.

Loothorde · 08/07/09, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by slant

Doesn't the 1 in dps factor in Dual wielding? I have that value set to 0. I would assume this would make all your simulations invalid.

EDIT/CORRECTION: It appears the new versions of the sim set it to 1. I was using an old xml file that I copied forward where the value was 0.

Nefiir · 08/07/09, 1:39 PM

Slant, have you tried the sim at 5/5 Necrosis (taking 3 points out of Morbidity and 1 out of Corpse Explosion) using your 3/13/55 spec?

slant · 08/07/09, 1:39 PM

I ran each simulation three times using SotVH. The DeathCoilMaxRP priority change brings 0/17/54 roughly equivalent to 3/13/55 with my gearset and chosen specs. It doesn't impact 3/13/55, assumedly since RP generation is lower it's in less danger of being capped.

3/13/55 still wins for me due to threat reduction and movement speed. I'm not saying it's the spec for 3.2-- I'm just saying that everybody should run the sim using their individual character's stats and the spec they'll actually use in game (for example, I choose to invest a point in corpse explosion) and not rely upon the character templates that come with the program.

FYI, dualwielding is actually determined by the <count> variable under <weapon>. If it's set to 2, you're dualwielding.

0/17/54, DeathCoilMaxRP priority from #1006: 5850dps
0/17/54, Normal priority from #1112: 5815dps
3/13/55, DeathCoilMaxRP priority from #1006: 5850dps
3/13/55, Normal priority from #1112: 5850dps

Consider · 08/07/09, 1:43 PM

@ Slant | Using the stats you provided, I ran the simulation for each spec. I did use the whole DC max priority setting, as mentioned above. I think I also max Necrosis over Desolation in my specs, but if I do, I do so in both, so it shouldn't influence how the two appear relative to one another (and, besides, you had a point in CE! =p). I did it over 200 hours. The results are as follows, first 3/13/54, second 0/17/54.

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Obliterate	886415538	19	135414	50	4	9 0	6545
Plague Strike	76582570	1	34120	52	47	0	2244
Icy Touch	83679246	1	34018	67	31	0	2459
Blood Strike	194668035	4	67694	50	49	0	2875
Death Coil	649364365	14	108354	59	40	0	5992
UB	129882251	2	108354	100	0	0	1198
Frost Fever	235484834	5	221771	100	0	0	1061
Blood Plague	235765391	5	221533	100	0	0	1064
Necrosis	104618896	2	284418	100	0	0	367
Blood Caked Blade	130447955	2	85180	100	0	0	1531
Wandering Plague	186976441	4	175898	99	0	0	1062
Main Hand	871440457	19	284418	59	40	0	3063
Ghoul	522701353	11	664020	87	12	0	787
Gargoyle	200003128	4	68544	86	12	0	2917
DPS 6261
Total Damage 4508030460 in 200 h
Threat Per Second 3186
Generated in 169s
Template :03-13-55.xml(C:\Users\Zack\Documents\Downloads\DKSimulator0.9.9\DKSimulator0.9.9\Templates\03-13-55.xml)
Priority :Unholy.xml(C:\Users\Zack\Documents\Downloads\DKSimulator0.9.9\DKSimulator0.9.9\Priority\Unholy.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

And

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Obliterate	1988657379	17	330738	59	40	0	6012
Plague Strike	179399359	1	83071	52	47	0	2159
Icy Touch	200786809	1	83030	67	31	0	2418
Blood Strike	437778032	3	165466	58	41	0	2645
Death Coil	1859462489	16	316865	59	40	0	5868
UB	371857208	3	316865	100	0	0	1173
Frost Fever	577275407	5	555532	100	0	0	1039
Blood Plague	579074456	5	555055	100	0	0	1043
Necrosis	427631153	3	711044	100	0	0	601
Blood Caked Blade	318657624	2	213514	100	0	0	1492
Wandering Plague	458879332	4	440742	99	0	0	1041
Main Hand	2138330103	18	711044	58	41	0	3007
Ghoul	1306387536	11	1660050	86	13	0	786
Gargoyle	479329573	4	164342	86	12	0	2916
DPS 6291
Total Damage 11323506460 in 500 h
Threat Per Second 4276
Generated in 469s
Template :01754.xml(C:\Users\Zack\Documents\Downloads\DKSimulator0.9.9\DKSimulator0.9.9\Templates\01754.xml)
Priority :Unholy.xml(C:\Users\Zack\Documents\Downloads\DKSimulator0.9.9\DKSimulator0.9.9\Priority\Unholy.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

The gap may be much smaller at a gear level such as yours, but it is still there, and it still favors 0/17/54.

Edit: Failed at making a chart.

slant · 08/07/09, 1:58 PM

Consider, your simulations show a 30dps difference between the two specs. That's 0.4% of your total damage. You don't find threat reduction and runspeed a worthwhile tradeoff?

The readme.htm supplied with the simulator details how to correctly fill out your character template.

All simulations were run with the DeathCoilMaxRP priority. Morbidity is clearly a better investment than necrosis for 0/17/54, as it's geared for RP generation and deathcoil spam. It makes a much smaller difference for 3/13/55, but morbidity still wins. Morbidity also reduces the cooldown on death and decay, which is situationally quite useful.

0/17/54 (Necrosis): 5810dps
0/17/54 (Morbidity): 5850dps
3/13/55 (Necrosis): 5845dps
3/13/55 (Morbidity): 5850dps

Consider · 08/07/09, 2:06 PM

It's 30 dps at that (low) gear level. It grows substantially as your gear increases (until the point at which you break 2pt8 and drop SotVH, anyways). A note could simply be made in the OP saying that it's a minor trade off which some may find worth it. Besides, 0/17/54 *is* more dps than 3/13/54, however. Just not astoundingly so, until your gear improves.

I would never drop Morbidity for Necrosis. No, no, no!
0/17/54
3/13/55
Are the two specs used. The difference between Necrosis/Desolation has already been discussed, and the question of IUP/GF/CE are up to personal preference, and their benefit isn't shown in a simulation, thus I don't include them. Besides, they would affect both specs equally.

slant · 08/07/09, 2:16 PM

The morbidity/necrosis question was asked earlier in the thread. It wasn't in reply to you.

Again my standpoint is that people should run simulations themselves, with their precise character's stats, and determine which spec meets their needs rather then scanning the boards, grabbing a spec meant for a much higher gear level, and performing non-optimally.

Edit: Also, you wasted a point speccing into scourge strike in your 3/13/55 build, and didn't take any points in improved unholy presence in either build. Runspeed isn't simulated, but it is critically important in-game. This may account for the small difference in our simulator results.

• frmorrison · 08/07/09, 2:53 PM

Run speed is a noticeable dps increase. The 15% run speed talent is more than a 1% dps increase (the new encounters require running from fire), so it is better than other Necrosis or similar talent, plus it allows you to get Icewalker or 32 AP.

Vindice · 08/07/09, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Melizande

I can only guess that (he) is using Glyph of Disease, which would just be such a waste of a Major Glyph.
On one hand, you'd get an extra obliterate, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't generate as much runic power, and what glyph could you possibly trade out for it? I can't imagine the benefit of fitting that glyph in would ever outweigh the cost.

I think he may just be talking about throwing in a pestilence to help AoE, like when Auriaya guardian swarms, or ice blocks on Hodir.

formina · 08/07/09, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Run speed is a noticeable dps increase. The 15% run speed talent is more than a 1% dps increase (the new encounters require running from fire), so it is better than other Necrosis or similar talent, plus it allows you to get Icewalker or 32 AP.

That's hard to prove. I don't think there are enough encounters where the run speed is enough of an increase to DPS to offset the lost DPS on encounters where the talent points are trivialized. Northrend Beasts isn't entirely a great example of runspeed benefits when knockback distance can be shortened so easily in that arena. It can be a decent DPS increase, but it's too situational to be anything more than an option.

Fargom · 08/07/09, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by formina

That's hard to prove. I don't think there are enough encounters where the run speed is enough of an increase to DPS to offset the lost DPS on encounters where the talent points are trivialized. Northrend Beasts isn't entirely a great example of runspeed benefits when knockback distance can be shortened so easily in that arena. It can be a decent DPS increase, but it's too situational to be anything more than an option.

Run speed has always been a rather large dps gain on any type of a fight where you break contact with the boss for any reason. Even if you ignore the benefit of using the better boot enchant, the 15% speed is going to easily produce more dps than 1% per point. This has been a known mechanic for melee classes for a long time, at this point I would venture to say that anyone who strongly disagrees with it should be the one to prove otherwise.

Miracleknight · 08/07/09, 5:15 PM

Just a quick update: I will be revising the first post after I wade through the posts I haven't read in a while, sorry for the delay.

Also we debated quite heavily the benefits of the rune speed talent, and overall we found that you could take it or leave it, it came down to preference, I ended up Opting out of it and saw no significant changes in my DPS on any bosses.