Is there a reason the Algalon quest reward cloak isn't being included on here? For Unholy, if you look at the "No restrictions w/Draenie Aura" set, adding the cloak will get you just slightly over Hit cap without needing a Draenie, and without having to roll against Agi classes for the Drape of the Faceless General. With Unholy stat weights the Algalon comes out very slightly ahead, but only because the Hit is actually usable. If the Hit is wasted, DotFG is still better.
I always include it in my tests in Zerack's sheet for Unholy at least. It just never seems to get selected because a) it's itemised quite badly in its current form, and b) hit rating is so prevalent elsewhere.
I always include it in my tests in Zerack's sheet for Unholy at least. It just never seems to get selected because a) it's itemised quite badly in its current form, and b) hit rating is so prevalent elsewhere.
With the Unholy stat weights Drape of the Skyborn shows up as better than Drape of the Faceless General by about 30 APE (if I did my math right, I could be wrong). This, of course, only applies if you need the Hit on Skyborn. It just so happens that the Draenie Hit set you have lacks the 1% Hit that the Skyborn Drape gives. It fits in perfectly, assuming you don't have a Draenie. Seems worth a foot note at least. But yes, if you're using one of the Hit heavy sets its value decreases dramatically.
With the Unholy stat weights Drape of the Skyborn shows up as better than Drape of the Faceless General by about 30 APE (if I did my math right, I could be wrong). This, of course, only applies if you need the Hit on Skyborn. It just so happens that the Draenie Hit set you have lacks the 1% Hit that the Skyborn Drape gives. It fits in perfectly, assuming you don't have a Draenie.
I believe what you are missing is that without the 1% Draenei hit aura, the set essentially falls back into a 'no restrictions' condition. The BiS for that has already been calculated. The difference is that instead of swapping in the Algalon quest reward, it is more beneficial to switch other pieces around. Certainly the Algalon cloak is a direct upgrade as you've stated, but a better overall set is obtainable with the Vezax cloak.
Regarding [Earthshaper], I'm quite sure that we'll see a bump of 3-4 of some/ most of the stats on it, nothing more. They certainly won't increase the DPS or speed as that would be inconsistent with the other 232 weapons. I hadn't read anything saying that this was an under budget item, so perhaps they're attempting to eliminate some of the rather large disparity between this item and the Yogg-Saron Hard Mode 10 Man mace?
@Methods: Thank you for providing additional set bonus weights. I realize the frost weights are very, very rotation dependent. I will attempt to include both these new weights and a warning to that effect in my next spreadsheet update. Would it be a fair statement to say that (for Frost) as you go from IT-less rotations towards IT-spam rotations, the value of the T8 bonuses increase / decrease in a monotonic fashion with the number of IT per rotation? This makes sense at first glance, but I'm sure you have the vagaries nailed down more firmly than I do.
Last edited by Zerack : 06/02/09 at 2:59 PM.
Reason: Clarification
I believe what you are missing is that without the 1% Draenei hit aura, the set essentially falls back into a 'no restrictions' condition. The BiS for that has already been calculated. The difference is that instead of swapping in the Algalon quest reward, it is more beneficial to switch other pieces around. Certainly the Algalon cloak is a direct upgrade as you've stated, but a better overall set is obtainable with the Vezax cloak.
Regarding [Earthshaper], I'm quite sure that we'll see a bump of 3-4 of some/ most of the stats on it, nothing more. They certainly won't increase the DPS or speed as that would be inconsistent with the other 232 weapons. I hadn't read anything saying that this was an under budget item, so perhaps they're attempting to eliminate some of the rather large disparity between this item and the Yogg-Saron Hard Mode 10 Man mace?
@Methods: Thank you for providing additional set bonus weights. I realize the frost weights are very, very rotation dependent. I will attempt to include both these new weights and a warning to that effect in my next spreadsheet update. Would it be a fair statement to say that (for Frost) as you go from IT-less rotations towards IT-spam rotations, the value of the T8 bonuses increase / decrease in a monotonic fashion with the number of IT per rotation? This makes sense at first glance, but I'm sure you have the vagaries nailed down more firmly than I do.
Well I think comparing this to Hammer of Crushing Whispers very clearly shows it is under budget. They have the same item level and yet the Hammer of Crushing Whispers has a gain of 23 STR 9 stam and 1 crit rating when socketed with 2 +16 STR gems. When you can get such a large upgrade with no loss of stats on equivalent item level pieces there is typically an item budget issue.
Originally Posted by Zerack;1261967Regarding [item
Earthshaper[/item], I'm quite sure that we'll see a bump of 3-4 of some/ most of the stats on it, nothing more. They certainly won't increase the DPS or speed as that would be inconsistent with the other 232 weapons.
I've just made a big update to the OP. I got rid of the separate column for 'Hit/exp capped as priority' sets because you can almost always achieve this by tweaking 1-2 items in the standard sets. In its place I have added a new column for people who don't even have access to 10-man hard mode loot, let alone 25-man hard mode.
I've also added Alliance sets for all specs and conditions, which all assume the 1% Draenei racial. If somehow you don't have a draenei in your guild then just use the Horde sets.
edit: Just noticed I've used the Blood stat weights for some of the Frost sets so they're probably wrong. I'll fix them ASAP.
......
@Methods: Thank you for providing additional set bonus weights. I realize the frost weights are very, very rotation dependent. I will attempt to include both these new weights and a warning to that effect in my next spreadsheet update. Would it be a fair statement to say that (for Frost) as you go from IT-less rotations towards IT-spam rotations, the value of the T8 bonuses increase / decrease in a monotonic fashion with the number of IT per rotation? This makes sense at first glance, but I'm sure you have the vagaries nailed down more firmly than I do.
I'm not sure how linear the change is from low IT to high IT use as I haven't done a lot of testing in between but there are some basic principles that apply in a fairly predictable manner.
The more RP you gain the more value to FS.
The more value to FS the more value to improving it.
If you, not only limit the amount of OBs you use, but also remove one of the diseases you seriously devalue the T8 4P bonus or anything that effects OB/procs off of it.
I would think it's pretty accurate to apply the difference between weights to the percentage changes between a parse of each rotation. Consider maybe the change of IT, OB and FS contributions. Regardless of what rotation is used, the more RP and use of FS goes up the less valuable everything else is. To that end, a rotation with a few more ITs instead of OB spam would maybe benefit nearly in the middle of the two provide weights.
I just picked up the 4 piece t8.5 set and I'm having trouble calculating how exactly the 4 piece bonus adds to the damage of scourge strike and blood strike on say an avg 10k SS and 3k BS
I'm terrible with math and cannot wrap my head around the numbers I should be getting with the extra 20% bonus for each of the three diseases. Does anyone have any math on the bonus and how much of an increase I should be seeing?
I just picked up the 4 piece t8.5 set and I'm having trouble calculating how exactly the 4 piece bonus adds to the damage of scourge strike and blood strike on say an avg 10k SS and 3k BS
I'm terrible with math and cannot wrap my head around the numbers I should be getting with the extra 20% bonus for each of the three diseases. Does anyone have any math on the bonus and how much of an increase I should be seeing?
I too fail at maths, but my understanding from the tooltip is that it's a 20% increase to the bonus damage per diease. Considering Scourge strike is: "An unholy strike that deals 45% of weapon damage as Shadow damage plus 357.188, total damage increased 11% per each of your diseases on the target."
Therefore it's a 20% increase to the 11% bonus per disease. For an unholy spec, assuming all 3 diseases are up, that's a 20% increase of the 33% increase (0.33*1.2 = total of 39.6% increase on the total damage from the strike).
So for a SS that would hit for 10k (before bonus calculation), it would hit for 13960 with 3 disease + 4pc, but only 13300 without 4pc.
My Calculations brought up the following BIS-Items with no Hardmodes (except [Aesir's Edge] which shall be easy enough if you beat Yogg in 25 :-) ) for Frost 17/51/3 as a Human ending up with 263 Hit Rating and 150 Expertise Rating reaching both caps. (Assuming you have 1% Hit from Draenei for Spellhit, Expertise 26 needed -5 from TS, -3 for using Sword as Human=18 Expertise or 148 Expertise Rating needed to cap)
13657 Armor, 1579 Str, 79 Agi, 1248 Sta, 784 Crit, 541 AP, 297 ArP, 125 Ha, 263 Hit, 150 Exp.
I did not calculated 79 Agi into the 784 Crit but will give 58 more Crit.
So this ending up into a score of 10511,10 taking the Frost Statweights from Zerak.
First, just wanted to say how much I love this post, thank you for your hard work Norg!
Second, I think the new Alliance Unholy set is a bit off for non-heroic, non-hard modes. I think the expertise calculation might be with [Bladebearer's Signet] instead of [Crazed Construct Ring]? Just noticing the starfall girdle expertise is higher than the belt of the titans, but there are no new expertise pieces in the non-heroic, non-hard mode set, despite it having a higher expertise value overall. I just did a quick look, so I might be wrong.
Also, I'm a bit confused on the fierce monarch topaz in the bracer gemming. Wouldn't a pure 16 str gem be a better fit than 12 str, 8 haste? Using Method's stat weights, the 8 haste would be worth 11.36 and the 4 str would be worth 11.88. Not much difference, but still slightly better. I notice the Horde set for unholy doesn't recommend it, just wasn't sure why the Alliance one did.
Also for the BiS Frost set, it's not optimal to use up 2 Dragons Eyes in the Legs.
Gemming a +27 strength in the Blue socket, a +16 Strength in the Red socket and a 8crit/8crit in the Yellow socket will give you the bonus and a further 8 strength as if you'd just gone with a second Red. This allows you to pop the third Dragon's Eye in the ring and gain an extra +4 Strength bonus.
Keeping blood hit and exp capped with hard mode loot
If anyone is interested, I went over the set of gear I last mentioned for keeping blood hit capped and expertise soft capped and managed to optimize it a bit more.
This set will put you at 263 Hit rating and 26 expertise (164 rating).
Alternatively, you can swap in [Gauntlets of the Wretched] and put a [Rigid Autumn's Glow] into the bracers. This nets you an additional 60 Armor Pen at the cost of about 30 Str, .92% crit, and 1 hit rating (putting you at 262 and a very very low chance to miss).
First, just wanted to say how much I love this post, thank you for your hard work Norg!
Second, I think the new Alliance Unholy set is a bit off for non-heroic, non-hard modes. I think the expertise calculation might be with [Bladebearer's Signet] instead of [Crazed Construct Ring]? Just noticing the starfall girdle expertise is higher than the belt of the titans, but there are no new expertise pieces in the non-heroic, non-hard mode set, despite it having a higher expertise value overall. I just did a quick look, so I might be wrong.
Also, I'm a bit confused on the fierce monarch topaz in the bracer gemming. Wouldn't a pure 16 str gem be a better fit than 12 str, 8 haste? Using Method's stat weights, the 8 haste would be worth 11.36 and the 4 str would be worth 11.88. Not much difference, but still slightly better. I notice the Horde set for unholy doesn't recommend it, just wasn't sure why the Alliance one did.
Originally Posted by Valimar
Also for the BiS Frost set, it's not optimal to use up 2 Dragons Eyes in the Legs.
Gemming a +27 strength in the Blue socket, a +16 Strength in the Red socket and a 8crit/8crit in the Yellow socket will give you the bonus and a further 8 strength as if you'd just gone with a second Red. This allows you to pop the third Dragon's Eye in the ring and gain an extra +4 Strength bonus.
Any queries about gemming would be better posed to Zerack I think, since it could potentially mean there's some error in his spreadhseet somewhere. All the gem placements are what the sheet suggested, assuming I didn't just copy something down incorrectly. I will go over all the sets sometime to double check for errors, but given how long it took to do that last update I don't think I want to do it right away!
Gemming a +27 strength in the Blue socket, a +16 Strength in the Red socket and a 8crit/8crit in the Yellow socket will give you the bonus and a further 8 strength as if you'd just gone with a second Red. This allows you to pop the third Dragon's Eye in the ring and gain an extra +4 Strength bonus.
You're a little bit off here. The set you propose is inferior by 0.84 APE.
The leggings switch a Dragon's Eye for an Inscribed Topaz, which is a loss of 19 strength and a gain of 8 crit. The ring switches a Bold Scarlet Ruby for a Dragon's Eye, which is a gain of 11 Strength + 4 Strength from the socket bonus for a total of 15.
So, the total change is -4 STR and +8 CRIT. If we use the stat weights for Frost, we get the values as follows:
Crit: 8 * 1.26 = 10.08
Str: -4 * 2.73 = -10.92
Total Difference: -0.84
That should show that the existing BiS with two Dragon's Eyes in the legs is slightly superior. I hope that helps.
one question about The BiS stuff, most of the items listed under the "No hard Modes" section according to wowhead only drop in hard mode.. is wow head wrong? if not what would be the real non hard mode options?
The leggings switch a Dragon's Eye for an Inscribed Topaz, which is a loss of 19 strength and a gain of 8 crit. The ring switches a Bold Scarlet Ruby for a Dragon's Eye, which is a gain of 11 Strength + 4 Strength from the socket bonus for a total of 15.
So, the total change is -4 STR and +8 CRIT. If we use the stat weights for Frost, we get the values as follows:
Crit: 8 * 1.26 = 10.08
Str: -4 * 2.73 = -10.92
Total Difference: -0.84
That should show that the existing BiS with two Dragon's Eyes in the legs is slightly superior. I hope that helps.
I just went over my napkin math and worked out where I buggered up. I'd not counted the fact that you get the +8 with double Dragon's Eye in the legs the first time and calculated it at an 11 strength loss vs 15 gain not a 19 loss.
one question about The BiS stuff, most of the items listed under the "No hard Modes" section according to wowhead only drop in hard mode.. is wow head wrong? if not what would be the real non hard mode options?
I don't think anything is hard mode in that list. Are you taking the (H) letters to mean hard? Because I think they just mean Heroic.
I'm not sure how 15 STR would outdo 44 AP, 15 STR is 30 AP, even with kings/talents I can't see how 15 STR will scale upwards to match 44 AP, aside from your ghoul getting a bonus from STR. The only way I can see it outdoing the AP enchant is if you can maintain 100% ghoul uptime, the difference being so small that even 60 seconds of ghoul downtime during one fight would be a potential DPS loss for the night, so I'd just roll 44 AP for consistency's sake.
06/01/09, 6:01 PM
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