Worldcarver doesn't come close to touching Voldrethar, even for Orcs. This is largely due to the enormous difference in top-end damage, (950 as compared to 1050) and the fact the Voldrethar simply has much better stats, including loads of ArPen for everyone out there speccing Blood.
Ive done a lot of research and i believe this is the absolute best gear set up for an unholy orc with world carver.
...
I can't imagine a better gear set up for an orc with world carver... Now is this better than Voldrethar? I don't know!
I'm just curious about your choice of not pursuing the 4piece set bonus. As unholy SS is about 40% of your overall dps. 20% bonus damage to SS then = 8% overall dps increase.
Since the helm is a definite, are you sure your gloves and pants choice will give you that 8% dps increase over the set gear?
Edit: sorry forgot to include the 20% to BS as well
I'm just curious about your choice of not pursuing the 4piece set bonus. As unholy SS is about 40% of your overall dps. 20% bonus damage to SS then = 8% overall dps increase.
Since the helm is a definite, are you sure your gloves and pants choice will give you that 8% dps increase over the set gear?
The set bonus is not a 20% boost in SS damage; it is a 20% boost in the bonus damage received from diseases, which is significantly smaller. As such, the DPS gain is fairly negligible, and you're much better off grabbing offset pieces that are better itemized.
I'm just curious about your choice of not pursuing the 4piece set bonus. As unholy SS is about 40% of your overall dps. 20% bonus damage to SS then = 8% overall dps increase.
Since the helm is a definite, are you sure your gloves and pants choice will give you that 8% dps increase over the set gear?
Edit: sorry forgot to include the 20% to BS as well
You are aware that the 4 pc bonus is only a 20% increase to the bonus damage from diseases, yes? That math at a glance sounds like you are counting it as 20% increase to SS overall.
The set bonus is not a 20% boost in SS damage; it is a 20% boost in the bonus damage received from diseases, which is significantly smaller. As such, the DPS gain is fairly negligible, and you're much better off grabbing offset pieces that are better itemized.
Thanks for catching that Dark. I was just thinking that the 4 set bonus is overpowered, I guess I should read more carefuly.
So we're talking about 4.2% damage boost to SS or about +1.65% overall dps
Still not too bad but i can see how it's not irreplaceable
It's mainly due to the rating conversion. While 1% critical chance might be better than 1% haste, you only need
25.21 haste rating for 1% haste and 45.91 crit rating for 1% critical chance.
The second point to take into account is that more you have critical chance, more its added value decrease.
Aha, and - again, sorry for the newb question - 2% haste > 1% crit chance then!
Thanks for the halp!
So looking over the Unholy Alliance set again, I still don't understand the logic behind the gemming choices.
The bracers with the fierce topaz in them still only provide 8 haste vs 4 str difference, which the stat weighting I've seen maintains 4 str is still slightly better. Are there some different stat weights that I'm not considering?
Also, with the starfall girdle, you should probably recommend putting a fierce topaz to get the 6 str set bonus, as the 8 haste is more than the 2 str loss.
Same with the weapon, which recommends using a jewelers gem, but then doesn't use a fierce topaz to complete the socket bonus.
Also, I see the bracers of the tyrant in the non-hard mode set now, which accounts for that expertise discrepancy I mentioned earlier, so ignore that previous comment.
Thanks for catching that Dark. I was just thinking that the 4 set bonus is overpowered, I guess I should read more carefuly.
So we're talking about 4.2% damage boost to SS or about +1.65% overall dps
Still not too bad but i can see how it's not irreplaceable
I have crunched the numbers, assuming you are already hit capped from other gear, conqueror's darkruned gloves combined with conqueror's darkruned leggings and 4 piece bonus gives about 60 dps less than plated leggings of ruination and the freya gloves.
So looking over the Unholy Alliance set again, I still don't understand the logic behind the gemming choices.
The bracers with the fierce topaz in them still only provide 8 haste vs 4 str difference, which the stat weighting I've seen maintains 4 str is still slightly better. Are there some different stat weights that I'm not considering?
Also, with the starfall girdle, you should probably recommend putting a fierce topaz to get the 6 str set bonus, as the 8 haste is more than the 2 str loss.
Same with the weapon, which recommends using a jewelers gem, but then doesn't use a fierce topaz to complete the socket bonus.
Also, I see the bracers of the tyrant in the non-hard mode set now, which accounts for that expertise discrepancy I mentioned earlier, so ignore that previous comment.
Have you just tried putting the set in question through Zerack's sheet? That should sort it once and for all. If not I can double check it later.
edit: checked it and it was fucked up. Changed it now.
Originally Posted by runic
I have crunched the numbers, assuming you are already hit capped from other gear, conqueror's darkruned gloves combined with conqueror's darkruned leggings and 4 piece bonus gives about 60 dps less than plated leggings of ruination and the freya gloves.
Well Zerack's sheet is always favouring 4pc Tier 8 for Unholy specs, so something is going wrong somewhere. Are you saying you disagree with the Unholy sets in the OP? If so then it's probably worth getting in touch with Zerack or at least posting your numbers here.
I have crunched the numbers, assuming you are already hit capped from other gear, conqueror's darkruned gloves combined with conqueror's darkruned leggings and 4 piece bonus gives about 60 dps less than plated leggings of ruination and the freya gloves.
Your mistake is in viewing the pieces in a vacuum. If you consider the cloak as well AND take the stat weights as 'gospel' then the set listed is optimal. This exact change was discussed at length around this post. If you have new evidence suggesting that the APE values used by the spreadsheet are invalid, then by all means please share. However, if you are suggesting that that the sheet is actually making a calculation error then I've yet to see any demonstration of that. This case was proven manually some time ago. Remember that the sheet is only as accurate as the weights that it is given.
Regarding the spreadsheet in general, I just uploaded version 1.4.1. The only real change is that is contains all of the known Algalon drops (I think) for both 10 and 25 man as of 6/10/2009. I also included the Blood and Frost weights that were discussed a page or so ago and are currently linked in the OP. Due to the widely varied nature of frost I have two sets of weights for the two extremes, but those will be the least accurate by far.
I am planning to update the gemming system and to possibly include other professions come 3.2 due to the Jewelcrafting change, but won't include that until more is known about the items available from the patch.
On the subject of stat weights, I havn't seen any posts that state how the stat weights change after you've reached the melee hit cap. I.e. spell hit, what are the stat weights on hit beyond 7% for alliance and 8% for horde?
Your mistake is in viewing the pieces in a vacuum. If you consider the cloak as well AND take the stat weights as 'gospel' then the set listed is optimal. This exact change was discussed at length around this post. If you have new evidence suggesting that the APE values used by the spreadsheet are invalid, then by all means please share. However, if you are suggesting that that the sheet is actually making a calculation error then I've yet to see any demonstration of that. This case was proven manually some time ago. Remember that the sheet is only as accurate as the weights that it is given.
Regarding the spreadsheet in general, I just uploaded version 1.4.1. The only real change is that is contains all of the known Algalon drops (I think) for both 10 and 25 man as of 6/10/2009. I also included the Blood and Frost weights that were discussed a page or so ago and are currently linked in the OP. Due to the widely varied nature of frost I have two sets of weights for the two extremes, but those will be the least accurate by far.
I am planning to update the gemming system and to possibly include other professions come 3.2 due to the Jewelcrafting change, but won't include that until more is known about the items available from the patch.
You say I am viewing the pieces in a vacuum, but I believe I am viewing the pieces opposite. While statistically speaking your build has the highest possible theoretical dps, not being expertise/hit capped is a bigger real world detriment to your dps than having maximum theoretical dps. Throwing off your rotation with one dodged attack can cause a dps loss multitudes higher than a spread sheet can justify. The spread sheet does not factor in our complex rotations and what happens if a human being misses an attack or it is dodged and then the entire rotation is messed up.
comparing the drape of the faceless general, conqueror's darkruned gloves, and conqueror's darkruned legs, to drape of the skyborne, gauntlets of ruthless reprisal, and plated leggings of ruination comes up as, assuming all gems are bold scarlet rubies:
59 str loss
40 crit loss
45 haste loss
92 ap gain
30 arp gain
69 agi gain
Combine that with the set bonus and it is still a noticable DPS loss.
On the subject of stat weights, I havn't seen any posts that state how the stat weights change after you've reached the melee hit cap. I.e. spell hit, what are the stat weights on hit beyond 7% for alliance and 8% for horde?
I suppose since the OP links are lootrank you can't include more than one value for hit. Anyway, I have these values in my spreadsheet, and they've been pulled from various posts (primarily by Methods) since the most recent patch:
Unholy
Hit (Pre Melee Cap) - 1.97
Hit (Pre Spell Cap) - 0.88
Blood
Hit (Pre Melee Cap) - 2.51
Hit (Pre Spell Cap) - 0.52
Frost
Hit (Pre Melee Cap) - 2.82
Hit (Pre Spell Cap) - 0.50
I'm fairly certain those are up to date, so hopefully that is helpful.
@runic: In case you weren't aware, the weighted APE values for hit and expertise include the loss in DPS from dodged strikes, missed strikes, etc. Unholy can absorb some dodges with only a small loss, which is why expertise is not valued as highly as other specs. I again say that unless you wish to dispute the value of one of the weights that this topic has been covered already.
Has anyone done any solid math on the 'weight' of average weapon damage? I'm curious how [Aesir's Edge] compares to [Furious Gladiator's Sunderer] for an Orc Unholy DK. From a pure stat weight point of view using the weights in this thread, Aesir's is slightly better (that's including the racial expertise bonus of course) - but I'm wondering if the unaccounted for higher average weapon damage on the Sunderer pushes it ahead.
Has anyone done any solid math on the 'weight' of average weapon damage? I'm curious how [Aesir's Edge] compares to [Furious Gladiator's Sunderer] for an Orc Unholy DK. From a pure stat weight point of view using the weights in this thread, Aesir's is slightly better (that's including the racial expertise bonus of course) - but I'm wondering if the unaccounted for higher average weapon damage on the Sunderer pushes it ahead.
Any thoughts?
Since both of those weapons have the exact same speed the difference should be fairly accurately represented in the weight for weapon DPS. If the speeds were different you might have a more complex situation.
Since both of those weapons have the exact same speed the difference should be fairly accurately represented in the weight for weapon DPS. If the speeds were different you might have a more complex situation.
Interesting - thanks. So the DPS weight already accounts for the higher strike/instant damage, assuming same speed?
Interesting - thanks. So the DPS weight already accounts for the higher strike/instant damage, assuming same speed?
Keep in mind the only way stat weights can work is through averages. Average weapon damage (high + low / 2) divided by the speed of the weapon IS the DPS listed on the weapon. The weight shows how much a change in 1 DPS on your weapon would be worth in APE assuming the speed stays the same. As long as the speeds are the same you shouldn't have any missing factors. As a general rule of thumb there is a slight increase in value the slower a weapon is due to our high amount of strikes. The change from 3.5 to 3.6 for example is so small that it's hard to justify a weight adjustment (for blood, which is heavily strike dependent, it would be maybe +-25 APE per 0.1 seconds when weapons are worth ~2k total).
1 DPS on a weapon of 3.6 speed is worth (1*3.6 seconds) 3.6 average damage. 244.7 DPS would be equal to 880.92 Average Damage (244.7*3.6 speed). What I'm trying to demonstrate is that max damage and minimum damage in the end are the same thing as average damage in PvE theorycraft (for DKs at least) which is represented by weapon speed and DPS.
I hope that helps put things in perspective a little bit.
Thank you, that clarifies things. I don't really have any knowledge of how stat weights are derived and for some reason just kind of thought the DPS weight was being associated with white damage and not much else, but now that I think about it/read what you've said obviously that wouldn't make it that useful or accurate if that were the case.
For an Orc Unholy then, it's pretty clear that Voldrethar > Worldcarver ~> HoCW > Aesir > Sunderer, assuming one can make use of the huge amount of expertise from WC, or the hit from HoCW, with WC possibly being lateral to HoCW because of the speed differential.
I recall seeing different stats displayed in recent posts somewhere. I also was under the impression that Haste was worth more to Unholy DK's than Expertise as experise only affect white damage correct?
Just wanted to make you aware that you forgot to re-analyze where to put the Jewelcrafter Gems since you swapped out the craftable plate boots for the new Algalon drop.
Atm you're saying that the third JC gem should go to boots, but that would mean the boots use a JC gem without benefitting from the Socket Bonus.
Regards, Svn.
06/06/09, 7:33 AM
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