I have a question, ive been reading the forum for some time now, and i dont see an answer to this..
Currently, i have 100% ArP with trinket proc (im blood ofc), and im now thinking of going 4p T9.. What is best to do? Gem all str, skip the arp trinket or skip 4p and only go 2p?

I'm not certain how you've missed it but nearly every thread on here states that you should be going 4pc T9 as soon as possible even if you have to pick up the Conquest items first, you should always gem for strength.

As you can see from the BiS lists on the first page, it's a higher DPS gain to pick up Deaths Verdict and the Greatness Card along with your 4pc T9.

Well, according to several of the simulators and RAWR i lose dps dropping all my ArP. Thats why i found it weird, but i guess you're right

If you read the DPSDK thread, his model does not yet account for a proper 4pt9 bonus with crit diseases at a fully proc-buffed AP amount. It's on the 'to do' list. I assume this goes for some of the other simulators as well.

The mainpage isn't exactly too clear when it comes to gems.
Is it correctly assumed that Etched Ametrine is the gem of choice in all yellow sockets but ONLY if it provides a socket bonus?
-If yes, I suppose that would only be until hit-cap is eventually hit, putting crit+strength yellow gem in favor, correct?

Mainpage suggests Strength gems in all slots, and it seems to imply that yellow gems are only to provide meta bonus (which is no longer correct).

If you click on those handy-dandy images that are just below all the sets for each spec you will see what gems he places into gear to maximize everything...

I haven't looked at any of this for a long time now, and won't be doing so until post-3.3, but IIRC you use the str/hit gems until the hit softcap (ideally in yellow slots, obviously), then once past the softcap, switch to pure str gems. I think it's that simple.

Actually doing a bit of quick math on it, assuming you're hit soft-capped with 4pc T9, any red slot you should obviously gem str. Any piece of gear that has a single yellow slot with a bonus of either 4 str, haste, or crit, it's more beneficial to gem crit/str for that bonus. Also any piece of gear that has a yellow and red socket (with a similar bonus), it's slightly better to gem a crit/str and str respectively. I may have done the math wrong on the latter of those two statements as it was nearing way-too-late in the morning, but it's relatively simple math with those nice little stat weights on the first page.

I also concluded that in a situation like [Chestplate of the Frostwolf Hero], it is better to gem straight str, and keep the [Nightmare Tear] for the next-highest socket bonus with two or less sockets (e.g. [Battlelord's Plate Boots]). If you'd like me to write it all out again I can, but really it's pretty simple and can be done by anyone that understands stat weights and the optimization it entails.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention that will likely change this outcome -- this is using an Unholy build using the stat weights found in the Unholy DPS thread. Sorry!

Obviously the front page was calculated using the Unholy spec listed at 3/13/55, which is much different than the spec currently utilized in the Unholy thread, along with different stat weights because of the different specs. This is probably optimized to the spec and gear being used on the front page.

If you look at the BiS Unholy gear in the actual unholy thread it is much different. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Problem being that 3/13/55 isn't as viable once you snag the 4pc, so in reality the oranges don't even exist, heh. I did note in my edit that I only calculated for unholy, which is assumed to be 1x/0/5x at this point in time (since the SS "buff").

I didn't notice right now,but i'm thinking on doing a BiS list for Unholy/Blood DPS assuming the gear obtainable currently in 3.2.2 from ulduar/toc and the stats weight/talents from 3.3.
I mean it's currently "useless" for us to drop the BiS gear for 3.2.2,especially in a season where all major guilds already completed the entire progress content.
It could be good to prepare ourselve with actual BiS gear that will reflect the changes coming next month.
The main changes from current 16/0/55 to 17/0/54 (speaking about unholy) switches the relevance of haste and armor penetration:
Attack Power 1.0 -> same?
Strength 3.05 -> same
Crit Rating w/ 4P T9 2.38 -> 2.31
Haste Rating 2.19 -> 1.53
Armor Penetration 1.37 -> 1.88
This will sure put actually on the top [Helm of Thunderous Rampage] instead of [Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph] and [Koltira's Legplates of Triumph] instead of [Legguards of Ascension].
But what about the rest?I feel that due to the lack of choice in ilvl 258 gear,there will be not that big changes..

About blood the stats doesnt seem to change so much,the biggest difference can be the less weight of crit assuming 4 t9,and maybe also assuming 2t9+2t10.
It's hard to say if arp will have more relevance in blood (in unholy does due to the change of talents and ss mechanics) that actually does,and note that we have 3/5 t10 with passive arp on it.

I did the simulation for unholy 4p using the optimizer and stat weighings from unholy thread for 16/0/55.
Here is my result.



Interestingly, there is alot of non-plate/str gear.

Disclaimer: some of these are probably out of date as of patch 3.3

Tier 9

Horde Blood 51/0/20

Slot	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3	Set 4	Set 5
Helm	[Faceplate of Thunderous Rampage]	[Koltira's Helmet of Triumph]	[Faceplate of Thunderous Rampage]	<- Same	[Koltira's Helmet of Triumph]
Amulet	[The Executioner's Vice]	[Collar of Unending Torment]	[The Executioner's Vice]	[The Executioner's Vice]	[Collar of Unending Torment]
Pauldrons	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	[Sylvanas' Cunning]	[Cloak of the Triumphant Combatant]	[Might of the Nerub]	[Sylvanas' Cunning]	[Cloak of Serrated Blades]
Breastplate	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]
Bracers	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Armplates of the Nether Lord]	[Titanium Spikeguards]	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Armplates of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[[Belt of the Impaler]	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[Belt of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	<- Same	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Acidmaw Treads]
Ring	[Gormok's Band]	<- Same	[Gormok's Band]	[Band of Callous Aggression]	[Gormok's Band]
Ring	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Planestalker Band]	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Planestalker Band]
Trinket	[Death's Choice]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Trinket	[Death's Choice]	[Death's Choice]	<- Same	[Death's Choice]	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Weapon	[Dual-blade Butcher]	[Mor'kosh, the Bloodreaver]	[Dual-blade Butcher]	[Dual-blade Butcher]	[Edge of Agony]
	-	-	-	-

Alliance Blood 51/0/20

Slot	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3	Set 4	Set 5
Helm	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Helm of Thunderous Rampage]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]
Amulet	[The Executioner's Malice]	[Collar of Ceaseless Torment]	[The Executioner's Malice]	[The Executioner's Malice]	[Collar of Ceaseless Torment]
Pauldrons	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	[Varian's Furor]	[Cloak of the Victorious Combatant]	[Strength of the Nerub]	[Vereesa's Dexterity]	[Cloak of the Silver Covenant]
Breastplate	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]
Bracers	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]	<- Same	[Titanium Spikeguards]	[Boneshatter Armplates]	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Gloves of Bitter Reprisal]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Belt of the Impaler]	<- Same	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Belt of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	<- Same	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	[Acidmaw Boots]
Ring	[Carnivorous Band]	<- Same	[Carnivorous Band]	[Ring of Callous Aggression]	[Carnivorous Band]
Ring	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	<- Same	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Planestalker Signet]
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Death's Verdict]	<- Same	[Death's Verdict]	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Weapon	[Justicebringer]	[Lothar's Edge]	[Justicebringer]	[Justicebringer]	[Reckoning]
	-	-	-	-

(Alliance screenshots all have the Horde item names, since the Optimizer only has Horde item names in its database and I'm not about to add the Alliance ones manually)



Horde Unholy 3/13/55

Slot	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3	Set 4	Set 5
Helm	[Koltira's Helmet of Triumph]	[Faceplate of Thunderous Rampage]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Amulet	[The Executioner's Vice]	[The Executioner's Vice]	<- Same	[The Executioner's Vice]	[Collar of Unending Torment]
Pauldrons	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	[Garrosh's Rage]	[Cloak of the Triumphant Combatant]	[Might of the Nerub]	[Garrosh's Rage]	[Cloak of the Triumphant Combatant]
Breastplate	[Chestplate of the Frostwolf Hero]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]
Bracers	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Armplates of the Nether Lord]	[Titanium Spikeguards]	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Armplates of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Belt of the Impaler]	<- Same	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[Belt of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	<- Same	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Acidmaw Treads]
Ring	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	<- Same	[Band of Callous Aggression]	[Bloodshed Band]
Ring	[Gormok's Band]	<- Same	[Bloodshed Band]	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Gormok's Band]
Trinket	[Death's Choice]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Trinket	[Death's Choice]	[Death's Choice]	<- Same	[Death's Choice]	[Dark Matter]
Weapon	[Dual-blade Butcher]	[Mor'kosh, the Bloodreaver]	[Dual-blade Butcher]	[Dual-blade Butcher]	[Mor'kosh, the Bloodreaver]
	-	-	-	-

Alliance Unholy 3/13/55

Slot	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3	Set 4	Set 5
Helm	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Helm of Thunderous Rampage]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Amulet	[The Executioner's Malice]	[The Executioner's Malice]	<- Same	[The Executioner's Malice]	[Collar of Ceaseless Torment]
Pauldrons	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	[Varian's Furor]	[Cloak of the Victorious Combatant]	[Strength of the Nerub]	[Varian's Furor]	[Cloak of the Victorious Combatant]
Breastplate	[Chestplate of the Frostborn Hero]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]
Bracers	[Boneshatter Armplates]	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]	[Titanium Spikeguards]	[Boneshatter Armplates]	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Girdle of the Impaler]	<- Same	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Girdle of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	<- Same	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	[Acidmaw Boots]
Ring	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	<- Same	[Ring of Callous Aggression]	[Carnivorous Band]
Ring	[Carnivorous Band]	<- Same	[Bloodshed Band]	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Bloodshed Band]
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Death's Verdict]	<- Same	[Death's Verdict]	[Dark Matter]
Weapon	[Justicebringer]	[Lothar's Edge]	[Justicebringer]	[Justicebringer]	[Lothar's Edge]
	-	-	-	-

Horde Frost 0/53/18

Slot	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3	Set 4	Set 5
Helm	[Faceplate of Thunderous Rampage]	[Koltira's Helmet of Triumph]	[Faceplate of Thunderous Rampage]	<- Same	[Koltira's Helmet of Triumph]
Amulet	[The Executioner's Vice]	[The Executioner's Vice]	<- Same	[The Executioner's Vice]	[Collar of Unending Torment]
Pauldrons	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	[Garrosh's Rage]	[Cloak of the Triumphant Combatant]	[Might of the Nerub]	[Garrosh's Rage]	[Cloak of the Triumphant Combatant]
Breastplate	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Koltira's Battleplate of Conquest]
Bracers	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Armplates of the Nether Lord]	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Boneshatter Vambraces]	[Armplates of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[Belt of the Impaler]	[Belt of the Impaler]	[Bloodbath Girdle]	[Belt of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]	[Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Acidmaw Treads]	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]	[Acidmaw Treads]
Ring	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Planestalker Band]	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Band of Callous Aggression]	[Gormok's Band]
Ring	[Gormok's Band]	<- Same	[Bloodshed Band]	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Planestalker Band]
Trinket	[Death's Choice]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Trinket	[Death's Choice]	[Death's Choice]	<- Same	[Death's Choice]	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Weapon 1	[Cudgel of the Damned]	[Frostblade Hatchet]	[Hellscream Slicer]	[Cudgel of the Damned]	[Frostblade Hatchet]
Weapon 2	[Hellscream Slicer]	[Frostblade Hatchet]	[Hellscream Slicer]	[Hellscream Slicer]	[Frostblade Hatchet]
	-	-	-	-

Alliance Frost 0/53/18

Slot	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3	Set 4	Set 5
Helm	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Helm of Thunderous Rampage]	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]
Amulet	[The Executioner's Malice]	[The Executioner's Malice]	<- Same	[The Executioner's Malice]	[Collar of Ceaseless Torment]
Pauldrons	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	[Varian's Furor]	[Cloak of the Victorious Combatant]	[Strength of the Nerub]	[Varian's Furor]	[Cloak of the Victorious Combatant]
Breastplate	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Titanium Razorplate]
Bracers	[Bracers of Dark Determination]	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]	[Titanium Spikeguards]	[Bracers of Dark Determination]	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Gloves of Bitter Reprisal]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]	<- Same	[Gloves of Bitter Reprisal]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Girdle of the Impaler]	[Girdle of the Impaler]	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Girdle of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	<- Same	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	[Treads of the Icewalker]	[Acidmaw Boots]	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]	[Treads of the Icewalker]	[Acidmaw Boots]
Ring	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Planestalker Signet]	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Ring of Callous Aggression]	[Carnivorous Band]
Ring	[Carnivorous Band]	<- Same	[Bloodshed Band]	[Band of the Violent Temperment]	[Planestalker Signet]
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	<- Same	<- Same	<- Same
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Death's Verdict]	<- Same	[Death's Verdict]	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Weapon 1	[Remorseless]	[The Lion's Maw]	[Stormpike Cleaver]	[Remorseless]	[The Lion's Maw]
Weapon 2	[Remorseless]	[The Lion's Maw]	[Stormpike Cleaver]	[Remorseless]	[The Lion's Maw]
	-	-	-	-

Some questions about trinkets: How much better is Deathbringer's Will than Death's Choice? What sort of information is available on Deathbringer's Will? I believe in the unholy thread someone mentioned that unholy DKs are limited to the Str, Haste, and Crit buffs. Is it determined by class, meaning we have no chance to get the other buffs it can proc? ICD? Duration? Etc...

Also, could the Tiny Abomination in a Jar theoretically be better than either at any point? Without knowing the proc rate, I imagine it would be difficult to come to a definite answer, but after finding the item on the armory database I've become a bit curious if it would prove to be any good, or at least good enough to substitute until either of the BiS trinkets.

I got it and for a Blood DK you're limited to STR, Crit and ArP buff.
So it's quite good for us

For Blood, it's clearly the best trinket available for the moment.

Around 90 seconds ICD. The bad thing is: the proc is completely random. Get unlucky and you're stuck with sub-par stat. I'd rather take the 258 version of Death's Choice, at least I know what I get

Leggings without a doubt. It's 26 ilvl more , plus more armor pen and you get the 4pc bonus which is huge.

Should Death Knights go and save Frost Emblems for tier pieces or some other stuff, or just go for Shadows Edge? That is if they have extra characters on their account to provide farming of Primordial Saronite, since with 4 characters it should be done in a month, plus minus few extra days. That is of course with doing all possible way to get those emblems.

Go for tier pieces, and buy Primordial saronite .

If you have GKP runs on your server you can buy Bryntroll which is about the same (or slightly ahead) of Shadow's Edge for probably 25-50% of the price of the 25 Primordial Saronites.

So I just got my hands in Deathbringers will and wanted to test it out. Now I dont know how far you guys are in the BiS frost set, but as i run a mac I can run your sims so I have to do testing in the old way.

I finished the fight against Saurfang with around 7,1k dps with Greatness equiped. I then joined a ToC pug and wanted to see what this new trink was all about.
Now I may have been unlucky with the procs, but I mostly saw arpen procs. Strenght procc's had some bad timing and I never saw the crit proc at all.
I hardly came above 5k dps, so this was a massive decrease in dps for me.

I need to test it again when i reach Saurfang again for the test to be fair, but it doesnt look good. Atleast not in my case

PS: forgot to mention that Im Frost DW 53/18

So you were seeing ArPen, Crit and Strength procs then? I've been trying to confirm conclusively which set of procs a Frost DK will get and so far you're my second data point.

You were most likely unlucky with procs. The only way to be certain would be to grab an addon like proculus or procodile and sit idle at a target dummy for an hour so, auto-attacking and recording your results.