Optimal gearing: the BiS thread - updated for 3.3 - Page 3

zagor · 04/25/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by wogi

I'm wondering how you are getting your expertise cap on BiS t7 unholy stuff? Wouldn't it be better to pick [Bracers of Lost Sentiments]

For unholy, even with 4t7, expertise cap is not as important, there's time (free gcd) to repeat the dodged/parried attack.

norg · 04/25/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Newyerg

Why do both the blood gearsets have such low epertise? Blood gorged no longer grants expertise anymore so you only get 6 from veteran.

The only thing you could do to the T7 set to get more expertise would be to swap in Girdle of Razuvious, but that would leave you some ways under the hit cap. That said, I tested that set before the changes to Blood Gorged so it might not be optimal now. I'll check it out. Gemming + Icewalker might be able to make up the hit defiency.

edit: You lose 46 hit rating from changing belts and can only gain 22 by using Icewalker and gemming for hit rating bonuses. You also end up at 19 expertise so with 6 from talents that's still not quite capped. I'd personally leave Girdle of Chivalry where it is.

As for Tier 8 Blood, swapping in Belt of the Titans puts you at 1 expertise over the cap, so I'm not sure it'd be worth losing the ArPen when you're effectively wasting stat points like that. But if you value being totally expertise capped very highly then that's the best change to make.

Originally Posted by wogi

I'm wondering how you are getting your expertise cap on BiS t7 unholy stuff? Wouldn't it be better to pick [Bracers of Lost Sentiments]

That would put you under the hit cap and over the expertise cap, so I don't think it's optimal. Getting to 8% hit is slightly more important for Unholy since the ghoul gains your hit as an integer: if you're at 7.99%, he only gets 7%. I think the Unholy T7 set as it is, with a shade over 8% hit and high (but not quite capped) expertise, is the best it can be.

Originally Posted by Giske

Some hard mode loot got added to armory and Armbands of Bedlam from Mimiron 25 Hardmode looks to be BiS wrists for Unholy.

There looks to be quite a few (all?) the hardmode loot on there now so I'll start updating the sets accordingly.

edit: No it's not showing all the ilvl 239 stuff but between the Armory and Wowhead we probably know enough now. Also it seems they re-did the plate helm and belt to replace some stamina which is nice. Algalon's quest reward cloak could use the same treatment though tbh.

Asmoday · 04/25/09, 7:23 PM

Pretty obvious but you should add [Bold Stormjewel] to the Gems section.

Paine · 04/25/09, 9:54 PM

A very nice thread. However, you firstly admit too much hit rating in your first Unholy t8 setup, and now your second update is very low on expertise. Well, i have had my own little "play" and come up with a gearset with PERFECT stats in all regards. However, this does assume that one's preference is 4 t8, rather than the 4 t7 which is debateably higher dps. Imo, considering that most of t8 is best in slot regardless of set bonuses, once youve obtained 4 pieces, its probably not that big a decrease in dps to worry (and you DO want to loot in Ulduar right?

).

Anyway, the gear:

Helm: Warhelm of the Champion (Thorium 25-hard)
Neck: Insurmountable Fervor (Council 25)
Shoulders: Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates (Yogg 25)
Cloak: Drape of the Drakerider (Razorscale 25)
Chest: Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate (Emblems)
Bracers: Bitter Cold Armguards (Hodir 10-hard)
Gloves: Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets (Mimiron 25)
Belt: Belt of the Titans (Craft)
Legs: Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates (Freya 25)
Boots: Battlelord's Plate boots (Craft)
Ring 1: Bladebearer's Signet (Ulduar 25-trash)
Ring 2: Sif's Promoise (Thorim 25)
Trinket 1: Darkmoon Card: Greatness (Quest)
Trinket 2: Bandit's Insignia (Sapphiron 25)
Weapon: Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion (Vezax 25-hard)
Sigil: Sigil of Awareness (Heigan 25)

This gearset leaves you with:
267 Hit (capped)
173 Expertise (capped)

I am very happy for you to use this in the pinned topic, however i would like some recognition for it (possibly as an alternative gearset that has both hit + expertise capped?)

Asphyxialol · 04/26/09, 12:52 AM

This is the best overall setup I can come up with in Rawr 2.2.1.0 for 51/0/20 (click for build)...

Piece	Gem 1	Gem 2	Gem 3	BS Gem	Enchant	Socket Bonus
[Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet]	[Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]			[Arcanum of Torment]
[Frigid Strength of Hodir]	[Bold Dragon's Eye]					+4 Strength
[Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]				[Greater Inscription of the Axe]
[Drape of the Faceless General]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]			[Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Major Agility]
[Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]			[Formula: Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats]
[Bitter Cold Armguards]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]			[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Formula: Enchant Bracers - Greater Assault]
[Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]			[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Scroll of Enchant Gloves - Crusher]
[Belt of Colossal Rage]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]		[Bold Scarlet Ruby]
[Plated Leggings of Ruination]	[Bold Dragon's Eye]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Bold Dragon's Eye]		[Icescale Leg Armor]	+8 Strength
[Melancholy Sabatons]					[Formula: Enchant Boots - Greater Assault]
[Sif's Promise]
[Godbane Signet]
[Grim Toll]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
[Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]	[Bold Scarlet Ruby]			Rune of the Fallen Crusader
[Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]

Finalized Stats before talent allocation, not factoring in trinket proc rates

Armor	13760
Strength	1447
Agility	147 (2.35%)
Stamina	1287
Crit Rating	722 (15.73%)
Hit Rating	266 (8.11%)
Armor Pen	315 (25.59%)
Attack Power	509
Haste Rating	118 (4.68%)
Expertise	133 (16.22)

norg · 04/26/09, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Paine

A very nice thread. However, you firstly admit too much hit rating in your first Unholy t8 setup, and now your second update is very low on expertise. Well, i have had my own little "play" and come up with a gearset with PERFECT stats in all regards. However, this does assume that one's preference is 4 t8, rather than the 4 t7 which is debateably higher dps. Imo, considering that most of t8 is best in slot regardless of set bonuses, once youve obtained 4 pieces, its probably not that big a decrease in dps to worry (and you DO want to loot in Ulduar right?

).

Well according to Methods' numbers (and I don't have anything better to go on), 4pc Tier 8 is a straight downgrade from 4pc Tier 7 for Unholy, so I think we need to work around that really. However your use of the ilvl 239 helm instead of the ilvl 239 legs is interesting now that the helm has been re-worked, and is worth looking into in more detail.

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

This is the best overall setup I can come up with in Rawr 2.2.1.0 for 51/0/20 (click for build)...

That's very similar to the one currently in the OP. I wonder though if Rawr is properly updated with the new ArPen values for instance though. This post suggests perhaps not?

The way Blood seems to value ArPen these days - to the point where people are seriously considering gemming for it over strength - I wonder if PLoR are truly better than Clockwork Legplates. Similarly, is Godbane Signet really better than Sif's Promise? What difference does Rawr show from your set to the one in the OP?

Asphyxialol · 04/26/09, 2:51 PM

The new one was released a day or two ago, and the armor penetration items under blood spec seem to have been given major priority (I only realized this because I had another BiS save on Rawr 2.2.0.9 rather than 2.2.1).

It could be that over a certain strength level ArP does become more worthwhile, however the stats in Rawr do not show ArP out doing Str, even in full buffs. It's possible that later in more calculations could come forth or in Icecrown the itemization could benefit ArP, but for the time being, with the calculations we have, I can't see ArP out doing Str as a primary stat, most likely pretty similar for expertise and how heavily its weighted for Blood over Unholy.

Regarding Godbane vs Sif's, I am using both. The only other ring with superior stats on a side by side comparison is Strength of the Automaton, which lacks the expertise I like to have.

I will have to wait until I am at home before testing the OP set vs my set, if someone hasn't compared the two I will at that time.

norg · 04/26/09, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

Regarding Godbane vs Sif's, I am using both. The only other ring with superior stats on a side by side comparison is Strength of the Automaton, which lacks the expertise I like to have.

Ah yeah, my mistake, I meant Bladebearer's Signet.

I tried them out in Rawr and yours is about 20 DPS higher than the set in the OP. I'm not totally convinced by Rawr's accuracy but we'll go with it for now!

Alborak · 04/26/09, 7:57 PM

I may be mistaken, but for the cloak enchant, shouldn't 23 haste be greater than 22 agi? Agi is worth about 25% less than straight crit, and with the haste buff haste isn't very far behind crit. All of this being for 51/0/20 of course, and its high white + necrosis damage.

Lushen · 04/27/09, 2:57 AM

Armor:
Helm: [Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet]
Shoulders: Unknown. We currently only have 1 non-set dps shoulders on the available loot table. But Im certain there are plate shoulders with ArP. I would guess 60-80 ArP from a shoulder piece is possible.
Chest: [Chestguard of the Recluse] or [Chestplate of Titanic Fury]
Bracers: [Bitter Cold Armguards]**** or [Decimator's Armguards]
Gloves: [Gauntlets of the Wretched]
Belt: [Girdle of Embers]
Pants: [Clockwork Legplates] - ****
Boots: [Melancholy Sabatons]

Trinkets, rings, neck, cloak:
Neck: [Frigid Strength of Hodir] - ****
Cloak: [Drape of the Drakerider]
Ring 1: [Strength of the Automaton] or [Power Enhancing Loop]
Ring 2: [Sif's Promise]
Trinket 1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket 2: [Grim Toll]/[Mjolnir Runestone] or [Bandit's Insignia] (Depending upon the ArP rating cap and how much ArP you have).
Sigil: [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]

Weapon:
[Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion]

**** = Bold Dragon's Eye placement.

Thats what I would put as BiS gear for Blood. Both the set bonuses are lack luster at best (equaling MAYBE +1.5-2% more dps between the two of them) but the itemization is poor for most of the set pieces. The reason [Chestguard of the Recluse] is included is because of the Expertise. Ive seen very few items in Ulduar with expertise rating on them, so the Expertise from that chestpiece may be invaluable. Though [Chestplate of Titanic Fury] is by far the BiS for Blood.

norg · 04/27/09, 5:02 AM

Well I suspect most of the ilevel 239 stuff is going to be useless sadly because the helm, cloak, amulet and ring all have copious amounts of hit on them. I don't think you could possibly fit it all in a set and not be over the hit cap, but I'll give it a go. (Are the ilvl239 helm and legs even worth breaking set bonuses for though? Specifically 4pc T7 for Unholy/Frost).

I really don't know what happened with Ulduar plate itemisation though in terms of the scarcity of expertise compared to the overabundance of hit and ArPen. Hopefully the next tier will be a bit better.

Lushen: Thanks for your input. Unless Algalon drops some plate shoulders I would have thought there's nothing left to discover now? In which case you have to use T8 or the non-set ones, both of which have hit (quelle surprise) IIRC. So even without using Grim Toll, your set appears to be some way over the hit cap and a long way under the expertise cap. I wonder if we can really ignore any of pieces with expertise on, no matter how good the alternatives are, when it is so hard to come by?

edit @ Alborak: The cloak enchant in the OP recommends haste and always has done...

Lushen · 04/27/09, 6:36 AM

Worst comes to worst, toss in [Bladebearer's Signet] instead of [Sif's Promise] and some Expertise food. I also placed the items in groups, sort of.

For example: [Chestplate of Titanic Fury]/[Power Enhancing Loop]/[Mjolnir Runestone]

or [Chestplate of Titanic Fury]/[Decimator's Armguards]/[Mjolnir Runestone]

or [Chestguard of the Recluse]/ [Decimator's Armguards]/[Power Enhancing Loop]/[Mjolnir Runestone]

Etc etc.

Originally Posted by norg

Lushen: Thanks for your input. Unless Algalon drops some plate shoulders I would have thought there's nothing left to discover now?

Honestly, I doubt it. Even Naxx had 2 non-set plate dps shoulders that dropped. I would expect there to be another 2-3 in the loot table. I have to believe there has to be at least 1 set of plate dps shoulders in 10 man.

Edit: After looking at the hard mode loot list and reading Ulduar - Hard Mode Gear List Im almost certain that there are probably 50-100 more items left to discover. Looking at the hard mode loot list, a few things become immediately apparent.

No hard mode ranged weapon.
No hard mode 1h axes or swords.
No hard mode 1h caster weapon.
No hard mode tank shield.
No hard mode tank or melee/ranged dps trinkets.

Plus a number of other discrepancies as well.

slizz · 04/27/09, 8:58 AM

When choosing BiS gear are you guys taking into account possible proffessions as well? I would think that having access to better gems a JC could affect some of the gear choices. Maybe not all of them but some pieces could be better with a gem slot. new to posting if this isn't the correct place for this plz let me know.

norg · 04/27/09, 9:04 AM

I've already included good places to put the jeweler's gems in the OP if you actually look. And hopefully people don't need me to tell them to use their inscription shoulder enchant or AP fur linings or whatever.

Zerack · 04/27/09, 11:18 AM

As an update on the utility I mentioned several posts back - I decided to rework it entirely and put it into Microsoft Excel to make it more accessible. To that end I'm almost done coding up the interface and data loading aspect of it, so I'm about to get started on the nitty gritty of the optimization code. Ironically enough this is the code that should go more quickly, as it's just a large amount of array manipulation and some multiplication.

I see several people have posted excellent gearsets for the current content, although I would hesitate to label any as completely best in slot until we're 100% positive that all of the hard mode loot has been revealed. That said, the benefit I see from the spreadsheet I'm developing is that it allows recalculation for a best in slot set from any desired subset of existing gear. It should be very useful to answer the question 'Given the gear I have right now, what should I wear?". In addition, it will be very flexible and ready to be updated / adapted for the next Tier of content.

My biggest reservation is the "Smart Gemming" feature, which will attempt to both optimize your gems and to make sure you have two blue gems (or the three prismatics) in order to fulfill the meta requirement. While this is logically very simple to implement, the complexity for even a gamut of 3-4 gems (Bold Scarlet Ruby, Sovereign Twilight Opal, Bold Dragon's Eye, and one more gem of choice if you'd like) is staggeringly large. My question then, and primary purpose for this post:

Other than exhaustively checking the entire set of all possible combinations, is there valid logic such that, given a single set of gear, the logic will result in a provably optimal gemming solution in less than x^y time, where x is the number of gem slots and y is the number of possible gems for each slot?

This assumes an APE situation for weights. That said, I may have the non-gemming portion (with Bold Scarlet's assumed in all slots for simplicity) done in the next day or so. If there's interest I'll post it up at that time while I continue to work on the gemming solution.

Edit:

@Wogi - I'm the one who created the BiS T7 gearset listed on the first page last time I looked. I specifically tailored it for an Orc Death Knight (and stated as much in my post detailing it), so that is why the expertise was low. The set was created when expertise capping was considered a much higher priority for Unholy. Much has since changed - however, I still stand by the validity of that set.