norg

Well by and large Frost is going to want pretty much the same gear as Unholy. There might be some exceptions but it's hard for me to work out what they are without any stat weights for the spec, and when I searched the Frost DPS thread there didn't seem to be any.

I'll set about updating the OP to a new set for Unholy/Frost using Tier 8. Blood remains unchanged. I'll also get working on those 'expertise/hit capped' sets.

edit:
Is 4pc Tier 8 now good enough for Unholy to retain the bonus instead of using both Warhelm of the Champion and Plated Leggings of Ruination (both of which on their own are clear 'Best in Slot')?

edit2: I've made a preliminary update to the OP's Unholy/Frost set. For now I've changed out the T8 helm and ignored Plated Leggings of Ruination. The thinking behind that is that - assuming keeping the T8 bonus is desirable - then the T8 helm is pretty terrible whereas the leggings are pretty good, so I think it makes more sense to swap out the helm even if it that means ignoring the rather amazing PLoR.

The set bonus may well prove to be so marginal that it actually ends up optimal to ignore it and go for PLoR anyway, but I need someone smart like Methods to confirm that.

 

Ganashal

The 4pc Tier 8 bonus hasn't been changed, just the 2pc, and the 4pc T7. This will change the balance in the Tier 7 vs Tier 8 debate, but shouldn't alter directly the discussion as to whether 4pc T8 in itself is better than the Helm and Leg combination you refer to.

 

methods

Well at least in single target the raw value of T8 4p plus the [Warhelm of the Champion] should be worth more dps than 4p t8 plus [Plated Leggings of Ruination]. The issue is that it may be really difficult to juggle that high amount of hit from the Warhelm. If you end up with the [Earthshaper], for instance, instead of [Worldcarver] (or [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] obviously) you will be overcapping hit with many other 239 BiS items. Just something to think about. Kind of solves our Expertise problem though.

To answer your question directly though, yes, T8 4p plus the Warhelm should be the best combination without wasting any of the stats. Were talking an extremely marginal difference though (maybe ~0.3%).

However, yet again, finding a way to combine the Warhelm and the PLoR should be slightly better than T8 4p but I'll need to do more testing on this one to make sure this is error free.Edit: Nevermind regarding breaking T8 to 3 pieces, it's very close but below by about 0.2% vs Warhelm+T8.

 

norg

Ganashal - Thanks for pointing out my mistake. As you said it doesn't affect the point about whether 4pc T8 is better than 2pc plus BiS alternatives.

Methods - Thanks for looking into that. Using your Unholy stat weights, I get the following results:

• T8 helm is not even close to Best in Slot so is an obvious candidate to replace
  T8 shoulders are very slightly worse than the near-identical [Shoulderplates of the Eternal]
  T8 chest is BiS and provides valuable expertise
  T8 gloves are BiS as long as you can make use of the hit; [Gauntlets of Ruthless Reprisal] are the next-best alternative and are hit-free
  T8 leggings are second-best to [Plated Leggings of Ruination], but it's a reasonably distant second place

As Methods has confirmed, breaking 4pcT8 to make room for PLoR is a tiny DPS loss. However if you could make the hit up elsewhere, for instance with the Algalon cloak or Bladebearer's Signet, you could potentially drop the gloves and leggings for their alternatives, which would probably result in a small net DPS gain. I'll have a tinker and see if I can come up with something for Methods to test yet again.

 

Miracleknight

Norg, are you not including Algalon rewards? Because the 25 man reward blows that one out of the water I found it at 370 dps approx compared to 310 from the faceless. (For cloak)

(10 man reward is also an upgrade of about 20 dps)

 

norg

Yeah I'm just fiddling with the T8 sets so they're in a state of flux.

Using the Unholy stat weights on Wowhead's tool, DotFG gets a score of 18.46. If you plug the Algalon cloak into it that comes out at about 20.71. Obviously though hit pre-cap is weighted quite highly, and there are many many items with hit on so it's a juggling act to use the best ones without going over the hit cap.

If using 4pcT8, plus the ilvl 239 helm, plus the ilvl 239 belt, that's a hell of a lot of hit rating there, and there's no way you could use the Algalon cloak and stay under the hit cap. So right now I'm trying to put together a set using only 2pcT8 (ditching the hit-heavy gloves) which would enable stuff like the Algalon cloak to come into play. Then Methods can hopefully see if that'd be an upgrade or a downgrade.

edit: As an aside, that Algalon cloak doesn't seem to have had the 'swap some stam for a bit more strength' overhaul the most Ulduar str-based items got. So it might get a DPS buff with any luck.

 

Miracleknight

I understand. I have a spreadsheet with the values put in all nice and neat, without the hit rating on the cloak it falls roughly 14 dps behind the faceless cloak. Hit rating doesn't suddenly become worthless either, but 10 man Vezax will be a lot easier to get than Algalon anyways hahaaaa..... (I don't expect I'll ever see him dead)

 

methods

Unholy possible BiS

Assuming your race is Human and with Draenei Aura this is the best I can come up with for alliance. This would change dramatically as an Orc without the hit aura (switch in Strength of Hodir?)

**** = Bold Dragon's Eye

Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates
Plated Leggings of Ruination **** +Monarch Topaz (inscribed?)
Conqueror's Darkruned Breastplate
Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets
Belt of Colossal Rage **** +Monarch Topaz (inscribed?)
Armbands of Bedlam
Battle Lord's Plate Boots **** +Icewalker Enchant
Wrathstone
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Sif's Promise
Seal of the Betrayed King
Insurmountable Fervor
Drape of the Skyborn
Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion

All the rest are obviously gemmed STR.

You'll be a fraction over hit cap with the aura and a little below Exp cap. Uses almost all 239 items.

 

Slacke

How does using 2pcT7 + 2pcT8 look?

Using the aformentioned unholy statweights the T7 pieces still seem to hold upp decently well and looking at the stat distribution compared to T8 they seem to be almost the opposite so you could pick two 'good' pieces of each set and get the double small bonuses.

 

Counter_Break

EDIT: Oops, please delete, mispost.

 

danagar

Hey Methods, I agree with your BiS for human DK, but I was wondering if you could shed any light/math on [Wrathstone] vs. [Bandit's Insignia].

I was still planning to use my Bandit's. I imagine I'll just sit with the Bandit's for the foreseeable future because there doesn't seem to big a well suited passive dps trinket for my taste out there yet. Armor pen on the [Mjolnir Runestone] is just meh for an Unholy DK.

 

level12wizard

Trying to build an Unholy set around the proposal that Worldcarver is > Voldrethar with the Orc Racial. This build meshes together pretty well, capping hit and expertise, only wasting 10 expertise, which according to the statweights still makes Worldcarver ever so slightly better than Voldrethar. I think there's still a few significant pieces that have yet to be discovered (most likely off Algalon himself), especially a 244 DPS weapon with 3.6+ speed...so this is probably a moot point, but oh well.

Helm: [Warhelm of the Champion] *Prismatic
Neck: [Insurmountable Fervor]
Shoulder: [Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates]
Back: Drape of the Skyborn **Socket Bonus unknown, possible prismatic slot
Chest: [Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate]
Wrist: Armbands of Bedlam
Gloves: [Gauntlets of Ruthless Reprisal]
Belt: [Belt of Colossal Rage]
Legs: [Plated Leggings of Ruination]
Feet: [Battlelord's Plate Boots] *Prismatic, Greater Assault enchant
Ring1: Seal of the Betrayed King *Prismatic
Ring2: [Crazed Construct Ring]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Bandit's Insignia] or [Wrathstone]
Weapon: [Worldcarver]

Hit Rating: 266
Expertise Rating: 142, 17 expertise + 5 racial + 5 from RoR = 27 expertise

 

norg

Thanks for that 'orc' Unholy set, I'll link it in the OP if that's ok.

I've made some fairly major changes to the OP today, adding different sets for different conditions and priorities. Hopefully it will prove beneficial.

 

solarin006

You should be able to get a little better dps by swapping in [Frigid Strength of Hodir], [Sif's Promise] (instead of crazed) and [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion].

It will leave you 74ish exp rating under cap, but the additional weapon dps and frigid neck should outperform Worldcarver, regardless of axe exp racial.

EDIT: Horde side anyways, either of our lists have too much hit for an alliance side player.

 

seeyou

I apologise in advance if this thread is meant to be limited to weapons/gear obtainable through PVE only, but I would like to find out how the Furious Tier1 and Tier2 weapons compare to Ulduar weapons in terms of PVE dps. A lot of the itemization budget is spent on stamina and resilience, but the weapons themselves have two gem slots and a massive top-end/slow speed. Could someone rank them roughly against the other weapons of the same level available in Ulduar?

 

Valtiel

I sort of feel people are dismissing a little gem:

[Aesir's Edge]

Gemmed by a jewelcrafter it sports:

162 Str
129 Stam
70 crit rating
60 ArP
937 top damage, 3.5 speed

Compared to [Worldcarver]:

137 Str
139 Stam
70 haste
87 expertise
949 top damage, 3.4 speed

and [Earthshaper]:

129 Str
129 Stam
66 hit rating
81 crit
1005 top damage, 3.6 speed


it seems a viable alternative. It's slightly lower in dps, but still has a comparable swing damage when you factor in the 60-70 extra ap. ArP is an excellent stat for Blood and decent for Frost, so in case you're bloated on hit or you don't really value haste and expertise that much, it's not to be dismissed so easily.

 

norg

Valitel and Seeyou -- Both your points can be addressed by looking at the stat weights for Unholy and Blood.

As you can see, the PvP weapons are ok-ish but are worse than most ilevel 232 items. And for Blood, Aesir's Edge is worse than Lotrafen or Rune Edge.

 

Valtiel

Stat weights can't in my opinion be trusted in a vacuum. Expecially the dps value, it's clocked at 9.89, and I seriously don't think that 10 dps difference can ever become a 90 dps difference.

Comparing:

[Aesir's Edge]

[Rune Edge] (not the greenie sigh)

[Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned]

my conclusions would be:

Aesir vs Rune Edge:

Rune Edge has 10 ArP, 10 crit rating + 120 agility, since at lvl 80 a dk needs 62.5 agility for 1% crit and 49.52 crit rating for 1% crit, we can napkin that into 2% crit.

Aesir's Edge has, for a a Blood DK, 176.5 Str, which means 353 ap. Rune Edge has 160. That's a 193 ap difference.

So essentially you're looking at 10 dps, 2% crit and 10 ArP vs 193 ap.


However, considering a raid environment, 120 agility become 132 (that's 0.2% more crit chance). 176.5 Str become 194,15 with Kings, and assuming 50% Fallen Crusader uptime, they end up being 220 Str.

So as soon as you factor raid buffs you have:

10 dps, 2.2% crit and 10 ArP vs 280 Ap.

Using that stat conversions you linked we have:

(10*9.89) + (2.2*45.91=101.002*1.56) + (10*2.75) = 98.9+157.56+27,5 = 286.66 compared to Aesir's 280.

Considering that in my opinion the dps value is highly overextimated (Aesir's melee strikes will hit harder, all strikes will hit harder, all ap powered spells will hit harder, what Rune Edge gains is 1 strike every 35 essentially), I'm still persuaded Aesir's Edge is an incredibly good weapon considering it drops from a 10 men version and stacks up to some of the best 25 men loot.


Edit: I'm not advocationg A'sE is a BiS weapon. But if we are limiting ourselves to BiS items, then anything but Vold'rethar should be discarded. Just pointing at a very viable option. For example it's the weapon I'm hunting for as Frost before Vold'rethar. Crit rating is highly devalued by KM for me, while AP is amazing.

 

level12wizard

I agree. I have a hard time believing that a lower DPS weapon can truly outperform a higher one in the first place. After those modifications, you basically end up with what is on the first post, only swapping the neckpiece to properly achieve the physical hit cap. Also consider that the first post currently uses an "old" version of the Warhelm, it lost a little hit/chunk of stamina to gain some strength (wowhead is now updated properly).

 

Addohm

drop locations and difficulty modes would be fantastic for this thread.

 

Fearlezz

Lootrank link should be sufficient;

Unholy 3.1 EP
Blood 3.1 EP

Can't find the latest one for frost, the one I did find however is a few patches old so not gonna post old info.

 

Mulgero

I've been closely following itemization and stat weight discussion in this thread and in spec threads. There's really one thing which I cannot understand. Almost everyone is saying that you should only gem for str but yet same time people are willing to take inferior items to certain slots just to cap for example expertise.

If expertise is that valuable then why it's so bad sin to gem for it? Of course this is entirely depandant of available gear and possible gear choices. Simplified you find BiS item for slot, then find out optimal gear to cap hit and then fix rest with sockets. Rather than trying to find gear set which caps both hit and exp close enough not wasting too much stats and then gem for str alone. Just doesn't make sense... This might not affect at all to BiS list in the end but still..

 

Valtiel

I'm not really sure we can assume similar Stat weights for Frost and Unholy. Unholy for example would ignore ArP for both the RP dump and the rune abilities most of the time, while Frost still uses it for a large part of its dps. In the same light, probably Frost would value expertise differently because around 50% of its damage totally ignores dodges and parries. And KM does devalue crit in a way. At the same time, basically every Frost ability crits for 245% damage, unlike Unholy, so once again Unholy may be more biased toward AP.

I'm not really being useful here, but personally I wouldn't gear exactly in the same way as Frost and Unholy. Actually gearing for Frost is a big mistery because all while UH and Blood are extremely settled in the magical or physical field, Frost is in hybrid territory.

 

norg

Well as someone pointed out earlier, stat weights are useful as an indicator, but you can't necessarily use them as if you were in a vacuum. And while Lootrank is ok for finding pure 'Best in Slot' items, it doesn't appear to be much use in putting together an optimal set, which is what this thread is more concerned with.

I've now included an 'hit/expertise capped' set in the OP separately from the main 'pure best' set. Statistically, on average the capped set will do lower overall damage given a large enough sample size and vacuum-like test conditions, and so is not truly the optimal gearset. However some people may just prefer the more stable, less streaky damage you can get when fully hit & expertise capped. Not to mention the implications a missed strike can have on your rotation (which is admittedly a much bigger concern for Blood & Frost since Unholy has plenty of free GCDs to rectify errors).

I am of course more than happy to construct a separate table for Frost, but without stat weights it's going to be difficult. Getting those needs someone like Methods to do the maths because it's not really my forté, especially when my personal experience of the spec is quite limited.

 

Bensch78

You´ve got a little mistake in your gear list with exp/ hit cap.

1. There are no sockets in the boots for jewelcrafters, i think you want to put the gem in the blue socket of the legs.


Edit: Second Mistake was my own fault...