Elitist Jerks Optimal gearing: the BiS thread - updated for 3.3

 04/27/09, 1:38 PM #46 methods Piston Honda     Discourse Human Death Knight   Frostmane I've had a few people ask me to explain how much slower weapons are worth in APE. The problem with trying to calculate that is that it varies from weapon to weapon and adjusts based on how much AP you have. Here is what I wrote recently in response: I'm posting this to help with decisions between slower and faster weapons when considering BiS. Basically the difference between a slower and faster weapon of the same DPS is it's damage range. There are two parts of a normalized weapon damage base: Damage Range + AP conversion So the difference between the [Betrayer of Humanity] and the Hammer of Crushing Whispers (New Hardmode10 Mace) is: 3.4 speed BoH = 606 to 910 or Avg = 758 3.5 speed HoCW = 624 to 937= 780.5 Difference of 22.5 damage on average So you can already see that the base portion of damage is larger on the slower weapon. Putting it all together means: Lets assume 6000 AP Normalized speed for 2h = 3.3 speed Normalized damage for both calculates like this: BoH = 758+ 6000/14*3.3 speed = 758+ 1414.29 = 2172.29 HoCW = 780.5 + 6000/14*3.3 speed = 2194.79 Which is exactly the difference between the base damage above. So basically the more AP you have the less speed really matters for normalized attacks. How much that translates into dps is a bit more complex but it's a matter of applying the normalized weapon damage to each strike and going from there. On my sheets an increase in 0.1 seconds of speed for a fully buffed Unholy DK (T7 Naxx) equals maybe a 0.22% dps increase so about 24 AP (rough number and probably shouldn't quote me ). Obviously, it would mean a lot more for strike heavy builds like Frost and Blood.
 04/27/09, 8:57 PM #47 PristineChaos Von Kaiser   Frigidchaos Human Death Knight   Doomhammer Trinets Is Bandit's Insignia still going to be 2nd BiS for Unholy? Over, say, Pyrite Infuser / Blood of the old god etc?
04/27/09, 10:49 PM   #48
LyNX27
Glass Joe

Blood Elf Death Knight

Tortheldrin
 Originally Posted by Paine Helm: Warhelm of the Champion (Thorium 25-hard) Neck: Insurmountable Fervor (Council 25) Shoulders: Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates (Yogg 25) Cloak: Drape of the Drakerider (Razorscale 25) Chest: Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate (Emblems) Bracers: Bitter Cold Armguards (Hodir 10-hard) Gloves: Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets (Mimiron 25) Belt: Belt of the Titans (Craft) Legs: Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates (Freya 25) Boots: Battlelord's Plate boots (Craft) Ring 1: Bladebearer's Signet (Ulduar 25-trash) Ring 2: Sif's Promoise (Thorim 25) Trinket 1: Darkmoon Card: Greatness (Quest) Trinket 2: Bandit's Insignia (Sapphiron 25) Weapon: Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion (Vezax 25-hard) Sigil: Sigil of Awareness (Heigan 25) This gearset leaves you with: 267 Hit (capped) 173 Expertise (capped) I am very happy for you to use this in the pinned topic, however i would like some recognition for it (possibly as an alternative gearset that has both hit + expertise capped?)
My list looked very close to yours except a few minor things... [Plated Leggings of Ruination] should be better than [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates].

Difference in items from [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] and [Plated Leggings of Ruination]
16 Sta
9 Str
63 Armor
15 Crit
1 Sockets
(OPTIONAL) Socket bonus. 8 Strength.
vs.

4 haste
+20 percent bonus disease damage (Thought I saw post where someone mentioned this was less than 1 percent of DPS)

Neck
Difference in items from [Insurmountable Fervor] and [Frigid Strength of Hodir]

46 Crit
36 Haste

vs.

9 Sta
2 Str
48 Armor Pen
40 Hit
1 Sockets (16 Str)
1 Socket Bonus (4 Str)
(22 Str. over all)
(Above Hit Cap)

With Paine's setup, whats really nice is that we are fully capped with suggested items.

Its a toss up for a few personal items but I think over all Paine hit it right on the head.

Especially if you can get your hands on [Warhelm of the Champion]

Happy Looting

04/28/09, 4:41 AM   #49
norg
King Hippo

Goblin Warrior

Draenor (EU)
 Originally Posted by PristineChaos Is Bandit's Insignia still going to be 2nd BiS for Unholy? Over, say, Pyrite Infuser / Blood of the old god etc?
I can't see those trinkets being all that useful because, again, there's just way too much hit rating. It'd be damn hard to work them into a set and not be way over the hit cap; certainly not if you wanted to use as much hard mode gear as possible, since that also suffers from hitratingitis.

edit: @ Lynx -- we already said though ref: Paine's set that Tier 8 is a downgrade from Tier 7 for Unholy, which makes the whole thing kinda moot. You need to balance around 4pc Tier 7 unless they nerf that bonus or buff the T8 bonuses.

Last edited by norg : 04/28/09 at 4:52 AM.

04/28/09, 5:55 AM   #50
Paine
Glass Joe

Darksorrow (EU)
 Originally Posted by LyNX27 My list looked very close to yours except a few minor things... [Plated Leggings of Ruination] should be better than [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates]. Difference in items from [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] and [Plated Leggings of Ruination] 16 Sta 9 Str 63 Armor 15 Crit 1 Sockets (OPTIONAL) Socket bonus. 8 Strength. vs. 4 haste +20 percent bonus disease damage (Thought I saw post where someone mentioned this was less than 1 percent of DPS) Neck Difference in items from [Insurmountable Fervor] and [Frigid Strength of Hodir] 46 Crit 36 Haste vs. 9 Sta 2 Str 48 Armor Pen 40 Hit 1 Sockets (16 Str) 1 Socket Bonus (4 Str) (22 Str. over all) (Above Hit Cap) With Paine's setup, whats really nice is that we are fully capped with suggested items. Its a toss up for a few personal items but I think over all Paine hit it right on the head. Especially if you can get your hands on [Warhelm of the Champion] Happy Looting
Thanks for the kind reply. The reason i chose t8 leggings was for the reasonable 4set bonus which seems worth getting (yeye i know its worse than t7 but what ya gonna do?) and the dps loss from swapping out leggings was LOWER than the swapping the helm. Though apparently the stats have been changed on the warhelm so im not sure about this. As for the neck, Frigid Strength of Hodir has a lot of hit rating which is *wasted*, and when you count hit rating as 0 dps, Insurmountable Fervor becomes higher dps.

The one thing i would perhaps change now is to replace the Cloak with the one from General Vezax10 hard mode, which has 2 gem slots - Drape of the Faceless General.

04/28/09, 5:56 AM   #51
EternusIra
Glass Joe

Gnome Death Knight

Alexstrasza
 Originally Posted by norg You need to balance around 4pc Tier 7 unless they nerf that bonus or buff the T8 bonuses.
According to a post on the unholy thread though if you can get two pieces of 239 ilevel plate DPS items it's better then 4pc T7.5. I haven't done the math on this myself since we don't even know if there are gloves/shoulders or chest that are that high. But if so what would the stats have to roughly equal out to so we can get rid of 4pc T7.5 for the helm + shoulders/chest/gloves with figuring at least one of the later three are ilevel 239 and the other two are 226?

You have to consider Algalon has at least plate shoulders since as it's been pointed out there are only one pair besides set shoulders.

 04/28/09, 6:01 AM #52 orestes26 Glass Joe   Etalia Undead Death Knight   Stormscale (EU) [Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet] [Insurmountable Fervor] [Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates] [Drape of the Drakerider] [Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate] [Armbands of Bedlam] [Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets] [Belt of the Titans] [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] [Boots of the Underdweller] [Sif's Promise] [Bladebearer's Signet] [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] [Blood of the Old God] [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart] Bold Dragon's Eye in belt, legs and helm if you're a jewelcrafter and Bold Scarlet Ruby in the rest. Otherwise Bold Scarlet Ruby all the way. 9,15% hit, spell hit cap 26,48 exp, dodge cap Last edited by orestes26 : 04/28/09 at 6:10 AM.
04/28/09, 6:06 AM   #53
Valtiel
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Death Knight

Darksorrow (EU)
 Originally Posted by Paine Thanks for the kind reply. The reason i chose t8 leggings was for the reasonable 4set bonus which seems worth getting (yeye i know its worse than t7 but what ya gonna do?) and the dps loss from swapping out leggings was LOWER than the swapping the helm. Though apparently the stats have been changed on the warhelm so im not sure about this. As for the neck, Frigid Strength of Hodir has a lot of hit rating which is *wasted*, and when you count hit rating as 0 dps, Insurmountable Fervor becomes higher dps. The one thing i would perhaps change now is to replace the Cloak with the one from General Vezax10 hard mode, which has 2 gem slots - Drape of the Faceless General.
Paine, another thing to consider (since so far your setup is the one I prefer among the ones listed) is that gearing for different speccs will end us up with massively different sets compared to what happened with T7 gear.

Not just the usual ArP considerations - for example at the moment I'm playing frost, and I'm finding moving from PS IT rotation to HB glyph rotations a dps increase in most fights, so I'm essentially running with one disease only. If double diseases don't win out for Frost the T8 setbonus may fade out as a necessity.

I think your setup is undoubtely the best I've seen for Unholy and the one I prefer for Frost. However, I'm gonna try to see if with 1 disease only it's not beneficial to replace some T8 with better pieces with a custom Frost set.

 04/28/09, 6:51 AM #54 Giske Piston Honda   Giskler Orc Death Knight   Al'Akir (EU) T8 Unholy/Frost set for BS/JC: Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet (16 str) [50 ap/20 crit] Frigid Strength of Hodir (20 str) Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates (16 str) [40 ap/15 crit] Drape of the Skyborn (16 str) [23 haste] Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate (16 str x2) [10 all stats] Armbands of Bedlam (16 str x2) [50 AP] Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets (16 str x2) [44 AP] Belt of Colossal Rage (27 str/16 str x2) Plated Leggings of Ruination (27 str x2/16 str) [75 AP/22 crit] Battlelord's Plate Boots (16 str x2) [Icewalker] Sif's Promise Crazed Construct Ring Bandit's Insignia Darkmoon Card: Greatness Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion (16 str x2) [FC] Sigili of Awareness/Sigil of the Vengeful Heart Total stats from items/gems/enchants: Strength: 1615 Hit: 273 (8,33%) Expertise: 97 (4,21%) [including talents] Crit: 679 (14,95%) [including agility] Haste 271 (10,75%) ArP: 167 (13,57%) AP: 481 Total AP: 4130,9 (str + ap including bok & ravenous dead) Gemming for expertise cap optional. This is the best combination of gear I can come up with.
04/28/09, 9:45 AM   #55
Paine
Glass Joe

Darksorrow (EU)
 Originally Posted by Valtiel Paine, another thing to consider (since so far your setup is the one I prefer among the ones listed) is that gearing for different speccs will end us up with massively different sets compared to what happened with T7 gear. Not just the usual ArP considerations - for example at the moment I'm playing frost, and I'm finding moving from PS IT rotation to HB glyph rotations a dps increase in most fights, so I'm essentially running with one disease only. If double diseases don't win out for Frost the T8 setbonus may fade out as a necessity. I think your setup is undoubtely the best I've seen for Unholy and the one I prefer for Frost. However, I'm gonna try to see if with 1 disease only it's not beneficial to replace some T8 with better pieces with a custom Frost set.
Yeh im afraid im guilty of "tunnelvision" in regard to an Unholy-favoured set. When i calculated the DPS rating for each piece i used Unholy dps ratings (taken from the Unholy DPS thread) and its quite likely if you put in different stats for blood or frost you may come out with different items topping.

And if indeed 1 disease is a dps increase for your frost build, it would make total sense replacing the leggings with the pretty sick legs from Flame Leviathan HC-hard mode.

 04/28/09, 2:56 PM #56 tauwyt Glass Joe   Dkeen Human Death Knight   Blackhand Curious I haven't seen any mention of the PVP weapons here, but they seem to be rather good with slower speeds, although they do seem to lack in useful PVE stats. They do have 2 sockets and respectable AP + crit numbers. I think for sure they are the best tanking weapons, but they would seem to be a decent upgrade from BoH for pve as well (assuming you don't get a Voldrethar for a LONG time).
 04/28/09, 5:32 PM #57 Bloodmourne Glass Joe     Bloodmourne Human Death Knight   Cenarius was about to say, the Furious Gladiator weapons are very nice until Voldrethar. Not to mention they give you the needed expertise if you are lacking it from racials. [Furious Gladiator's Claymore] [Furious Gladiator's Greatsword] [Furious Gladiator's Bonegrinder] [Furious Gladiator's Crusher] Listing the Human weapons. There is axe polearm that has same stats and gem slots.
 04/28/09, 6:33 PM #58 norg King Hippo   Norgspanner Goblin Warrior   Draenor (EU) I'm toying with this altered Blood set. Can Methods or whoever perhaps run it through a spreadsheet/sim? Head: [Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet] **** Amulet: [Frigid Strength of Hodir] **** Shoulders: [Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates] Cloak: [Drape of the Faceless General] Chest: [Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate] Wrist: [Decimator's Armguards] Hands: [Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets] Waist: [Soul-Devouring Cinch] Legs: [Clockwork Legplates] **** Feet: [Melancholy Sabatons] Ring: [Sif's Promise] Ring: [Power Enhancing Loop] Trinket: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] Trinket: [Mjolnir Runestone] Weapon: [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] Sigil: [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]
 04/28/09, 8:13 PM #59 Nifty01 Glass Joe   Nifti Human Death Knight   Mug'thol (EU) Why is noone considering Yog hardmode ring? http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...26_9806_15.jpg Seems its a pretty neat item to get hit from since it basically has 20 more strength than any other ring (more with prismatic gem). If you really want to cap expertise you could just gem for it...
 04/29/09, 1:26 AM #60 Tehbubs Glass Joe   Bigdaddyyur Orc Death Knight   Blackwing Lair How good is wraithstone in comparison to the other trinkets? Wouldn't an on-demand ap buff be better than mirror?

 Elitist Jerks Optimal gearing: the BiS thread - updated for 3.3