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Old 05/01/09, 3:51 AM   #76
norg
King Hippo
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Twistlers View Post
here's a list i feel would be BiS for frost, since i dont see a whole lot of lovin for it here =(
Well by and large Frost is going to want pretty much the same gear as Unholy. There might be some exceptions but it's hard for me to work out what they are without any stat weights for the spec, and when I searched the Frost DPS thread there didn't seem to be any.

I'll set about updating the OP to a new set for Unholy/Frost using Tier 8. Blood remains unchanged. I'll also get working on those 'expertise/hit capped' sets.

edit:
Originally Posted by methods
Bloody Hell.
There is likely no one that didn't see this coming. T8 is officially an upgrade now though still not by much at all. T7 bonuses are still technically better but the set bonuses on T8 plus the overall stat upgrades mean about a 1% upgrade for Unholy and more for Blood and Frost. So basically Unholy will want T8 just to get back the damage we'll lose on patch day. A+
Is 4pc Tier 8 now good enough for Unholy to retain the bonus instead of using both Warhelm of the Champion and Plated Leggings of Ruination (both of which on their own are clear 'Best in Slot')?

edit2: I've made a preliminary update to the OP's Unholy/Frost set. For now I've changed out the T8 helm and ignored Plated Leggings of Ruination. The thinking behind that is that - assuming keeping the T8 bonus is desirable - then the T8 helm is pretty terrible whereas the leggings are pretty good, so I think it makes more sense to swap out the helm even if it that means ignoring the rather amazing PLoR.

The set bonus may well prove to be so marginal that it actually ends up optimal to ignore it and go for PLoR anyway, but I need someone smart like Methods to confirm that.

Last edited by norg : 05/01/09 at 5:11 AM.

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Old 05/01/09, 8:15 AM   #77
Ganashal
Glass Joe
 
Human Druid
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by norg View Post
Is 4pc Tier 8 now good enough for Unholy to retain the bonus instead of using both Warhelm of the Champion and Plated Leggings of Ruination (both of which on their own are clear 'Best in Slot')?
The 4pc Tier 8 bonus hasn't been changed, just the 2pc, and the 4pc T7. This will change the balance in the Tier 7 vs Tier 8 debate, but shouldn't alter directly the discussion as to whether 4pc T8 in itself is better than the Helm and Leg combination you refer to.

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Old 05/01/09, 8:44 AM   #78
methods
Piston Honda
 
methods's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by norg View Post
....
The set bonus may well prove to be so marginal that it actually ends up optimal to ignore it and go for PLoR anyway, but I need someone smart like Methods to confirm that.
Well at least in single target the raw value of T8 4p plus the [Warhelm of the Champion] should be worth more dps than 4p t8 plus [Plated Leggings of Ruination]. The issue is that it may be really difficult to juggle that high amount of hit from the Warhelm. If you end up with the [Earthshaper], for instance, instead of [Worldcarver] (or [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] obviously) you will be overcapping hit with many other 239 BiS items. Just something to think about. Kind of solves our Expertise problem though.

To answer your question directly though, yes, T8 4p plus the Warhelm should be the best combination without wasting any of the stats. Were talking an extremely marginal difference though (maybe ~0.3%).

However, yet again, finding a way to combine the Warhelm and the PLoR should be slightly better than T8 4p but I'll need to do more testing on this one to make sure this is error free.Edit: Nevermind regarding breaking T8 to 3 pieces, it's very close but below by about 0.2% vs Warhelm+T8.

Last edited by methods : 05/01/09 at 8:53 AM.

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Old 05/01/09, 9:21 AM   #79
norg
King Hippo
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Draenor (EU)
Ganashal - Thanks for pointing out my mistake. As you said it doesn't affect the point about whether 4pc T8 is better than 2pc plus BiS alternatives.

Methods - Thanks for looking into that. Using your Unholy stat weights, I get the following results:
  • T8 helm is not even close to Best in Slot so is an obvious candidate to replace
    T8 shoulders are very slightly worse than the near-identical [Shoulderplates of the Eternal]
    T8 chest is BiS and provides valuable expertise
    T8 gloves are BiS as long as you can make use of the hit; [Gauntlets of Ruthless Reprisal] are the next-best alternative and are hit-free
    T8 leggings are second-best to [Plated Leggings of Ruination], but it's a reasonably distant second place

As Methods has confirmed, breaking 4pcT8 to make room for PLoR is a tiny DPS loss. However if you could make the hit up elsewhere, for instance with the Algalon cloak or Bladebearer's Signet, you could potentially drop the gloves and leggings for their alternatives, which would probably result in a small net DPS gain. I'll have a tinker and see if I can come up with something for Methods to test yet again.

Last edited by norg : 05/01/09 at 9:29 AM.

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Old 05/01/09, 10:06 AM   #80
Miracleknight
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Warrior
 
Shattered Hand
Norg, are you not including Algalon rewards? Because the 25 man reward blows that one out of the water I found it at 370 dps approx compared to 310 from the faceless. (For cloak)

(10 man reward is also an upgrade of about 20 dps)

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Old 05/01/09, 10:16 AM   #81
norg
King Hippo
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Draenor (EU)
Yeah I'm just fiddling with the T8 sets so they're in a state of flux.

Using the Unholy stat weights on Wowhead's tool, DotFG gets a score of 18.46. If you plug the Algalon cloak into it that comes out at about 20.71. Obviously though hit pre-cap is weighted quite highly, and there are many many items with hit on so it's a juggling act to use the best ones without going over the hit cap.

If using 4pcT8, plus the ilvl 239 helm, plus the ilvl 239 belt, that's a hell of a lot of hit rating there, and there's no way you could use the Algalon cloak and stay under the hit cap. So right now I'm trying to put together a set using only 2pcT8 (ditching the hit-heavy gloves) which would enable stuff like the Algalon cloak to come into play. Then Methods can hopefully see if that'd be an upgrade or a downgrade.

edit: As an aside, that Algalon cloak doesn't seem to have had the 'swap some stam for a bit more strength' overhaul the most Ulduar str-based items got. So it might get a DPS buff with any luck.

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Old 05/01/09, 10:30 AM   #82
Miracleknight
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Warrior
 
Shattered Hand
I understand. I have a spreadsheet with the values put in all nice and neat, without the hit rating on the cloak it falls roughly 14 dps behind the faceless cloak. Hit rating doesn't suddenly become worthless either, but 10 man Vezax will be a lot easier to get than Algalon anyways hahaaaa..... (I don't expect I'll ever see him dead)

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Old 05/01/09, 11:16 AM   #83
methods
Piston Honda
 
methods's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Unholy possible BiS

Assuming your race is Human and with Draenei Aura this is the best I can come up with for alliance. This would change dramatically as an Orc without the hit aura (switch in Strength of Hodir?)

**** = Bold Dragon's Eye

Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates
Plated Leggings of Ruination **** +Monarch Topaz (inscribed?)
Conqueror's Darkruned Breastplate
Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets
Belt of Colossal Rage **** +Monarch Topaz (inscribed?)
Armbands of Bedlam
Battle Lord's Plate Boots **** +Icewalker Enchant
Wrathstone
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Sif's Promise
Seal of the Betrayed King
Insurmountable Fervor
Drape of the Skyborn
Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion

All the rest are obviously gemmed STR.

You'll be a fraction over hit cap with the aura and a little below Exp cap. Uses almost all 239 items.

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Old 05/01/09, 12:04 PM   #84
Slacke
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Shadowsong (EU)
How does using 2pcT7 + 2pcT8 look?

Using the aformentioned unholy statweights the T7 pieces still seem to hold upp decently well and looking at the stat distribution compared to T8 they seem to be almost the opposite so you could pick two 'good' pieces of each set and get the double small bonuses.

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Old 05/02/09, 3:19 AM   #85
Counter_Break
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Gnomeregan
EDIT: Oops, please delete, mispost.

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Old 05/03/09, 2:34 AM   #86
danagar
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
<tcf>
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by methods View Post
...
Wrathstone
...
Hey Methods, I agree with your BiS for human DK, but I was wondering if you could shed any light/math on [Wrathstone] vs. [Bandit's Insignia].

I was still planning to use my Bandit's. I imagine I'll just sit with the Bandit's for the foreseeable future because there doesn't seem to big a well suited passive dps trinket for my taste out there yet. Armor pen on the [Mjolnir Runestone] is just meh for an Unholy DK.

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Old 05/03/09, 2:48 PM   #87
level12wizard
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Trying to build an Unholy set around the proposal that Worldcarver is > Voldrethar with the Orc Racial. This build meshes together pretty well, capping hit and expertise, only wasting 10 expertise, which according to the statweights still makes Worldcarver ever so slightly better than Voldrethar. I think there's still a few significant pieces that have yet to be discovered (most likely off Algalon himself), especially a 244 DPS weapon with 3.6+ speed...so this is probably a moot point, but oh well.

Helm: [Warhelm of the Champion] *Prismatic
Neck: [Insurmountable Fervor]
Shoulder: [Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates]
Back: Drape of the Skyborn **Socket Bonus unknown, possible prismatic slot
Chest: [Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate]
Wrist: Armbands of Bedlam
Gloves: [Gauntlets of Ruthless Reprisal]
Belt: [Belt of Colossal Rage]
Legs: [Plated Leggings of Ruination]
Feet: [Battlelord's Plate Boots] *Prismatic, Greater Assault enchant
Ring1: Seal of the Betrayed King *Prismatic
Ring2: [Crazed Construct Ring]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Bandit's Insignia] or [Wrathstone]
Weapon: [Worldcarver]

Hit Rating: 266
Expertise Rating: 142, 17 expertise + 5 racial + 5 from RoR = 27 expertise

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Old 05/03/09, 7:56 PM   #88
norg
King Hippo
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Draenor (EU)
Thanks for that 'orc' Unholy set, I'll link it in the OP if that's ok.

I've made some fairly major changes to the OP today, adding different sets for different conditions and priorities. Hopefully it will prove beneficial.

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Old 05/04/09, 2:32 AM   #89
solarin006
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by level12wizard View Post
Trying to build an Unholy set around the proposal that Worldcarver is > Voldrethar with the Orc Racial. This build meshes together pretty well, capping hit and expertise, only wasting 10 expertise, which according to the statweights still makes Worldcarver ever so slightly better than Voldrethar. I think there's still a few significant pieces that have yet to be discovered (most likely off Algalon himself), especially a 244 DPS weapon with 3.6+ speed...so this is probably a moot point, but oh well.

Helm: [Warhelm of the Champion] *Prismatic
Neck: [Insurmountable Fervor]
Shoulder: [Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates]
Back: Drape of the Skyborn **Socket Bonus unknown, possible prismatic slot
Chest: [Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate]
Wrist: Armbands of Bedlam
Gloves: [Gauntlets of Ruthless Reprisal]
Belt: [Belt of Colossal Rage]
Legs: [Plated Leggings of Ruination]
Feet: [Battlelord's Plate Boots] *Prismatic, Greater Assault enchant
Ring1: Seal of the Betrayed King *Prismatic
Ring2: [Crazed Construct Ring]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Bandit's Insignia] or [Wrathstone]
Weapon: [Worldcarver]

Hit Rating: 266
Expertise Rating: 142, 17 expertise + 5 racial + 5 from RoR = 27 expertise

You should be able to get a little better dps by swapping in [Frigid Strength of Hodir], [Sif's Promise] (instead of crazed) and [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion].

It will leave you 74ish exp rating under cap, but the additional weapon dps and frigid neck should outperform Worldcarver, regardless of axe exp racial.

EDIT: Horde side anyways, either of our lists have too much hit for an alliance side player.

Last edited by solarin006 : 05/04/09 at 3:20 AM.

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Old 05/04/09, 4:48 AM   #90
seeyou
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Karazhan (EU)
I apologise in advance if this thread is meant to be limited to weapons/gear obtainable through PVE only, but I would like to find out how the Furious Tier1 and Tier2 weapons compare to Ulduar weapons in terms of PVE dps. A lot of the itemization budget is spent on stamina and resilience, but the weapons themselves have two gem slots and a massive top-end/slow speed. Could someone rank them roughly against the other weapons of the same level available in Ulduar?

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