Hey, I'm just wondering, for Duel Wield, what are the best Slow/Fast weapons to use, Still malice and Remorse? Is the Tier 8 4 set bonus good? I'm not sure if the 20% bonus damage per disease is awesome or not compared to just using the 2 set bonus and having the helm/gloves/pants as the BiS No restriction options.
1 little thing that is confusing in your Ulduar table:
"Cloak Drape of the Skyborn --- Same ---- [Drape of the Faceless General] ---- Same"
is the "2nd Same" refering to the The DotFG or DotS ?
As I understood the table the "same" always refers to the previous called item - so DotFG.
But it seems this isn't fully constant, in some cases it doesn't match.
The second same refers to the item immediately to the left of it, in this case DotFG. I guess I could make that clearer though.
As for dual wield, I'd really need to brush up my knowledge before doing a build as I haven't been that spec for quite a while. That's one area where we could use some input from the guys playing the spec I think, as it's more of a niche build now compared to a couple of patches ago.
Hey, I'm just wondering, for Duel Wield, what are the best Slow/Fast weapons to use, Still malice and Remorse? Is the Tier 8 4 set bonus good? I'm not sure if the 20% bonus damage per disease is awesome or not compared to just using the 2 set bonus and having the helm/gloves/pants as the BiS No restriction options.
I believe Kyruski answered this on the DW Unholy thread on page 12 if I remember correctly.
I'm switching from Unholy to Frost and am wondering if Grim Toll wouldn't be a better choice than Bandit's Insignia. I understand that 6 months from now, all of that hit will more than likely be a waste with all of the hit available in Ulduar's other pieces.
But in the meantime, if one can put together a reasonable set utilizing Grim Toll, doesn't the proc from GT put it ahead of Bandit's? Or am I totally underestimating the nuke proc from Bandit's? When I normalize the Arp of GT, even lowballing it and saying its up 10%, that would be 82 hit and 61 Arp, a pretty significant number for anyone Blood or Frost.
Grim Toll is pretty good for Frost if you can use the hit, yeah. I honestly don't even know how great Bandit's is for Frost, but the Ulduar trinkets are mostly pretty lacklustre.
Mjolnir Runestone is possibly BiS for Frost, but I'm not totally sure on that so I just left it the same as T7 for the time being.
I imagine the bandit's insignia is at least as good for Frost as Unholy, if not better. Rage of Rivendare seems to affect the proc, so I think Tundra Stalker would too.
How does [Legplates of Double Strikes] compare to [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] for blood ? I have both but I'm thinking that the legplates of double strikes are better. And i have jewelcrafting so getting the +6 strenght bonus is not a problem for both of the leggings.
How does [Legplates of Double Strikes] compare to [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] for blood ? I have both but I'm thinking that the legplates of double strikes are better. And i have jewelcrafting so getting the +6 strenght bonus is not a problem for both of the leggings.
I'm fairly sure the 29 more Str plus the red instead of yellow socket makes up for not having ArP, especially considering how much other ArP stuff is in Ulduar.
How does [Legplates of Double Strikes] compare to [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] for blood ? I have both but I'm thinking that the legplates of double strikes are better. And i have jewelcrafting so getting the +6 strenght bonus is not a problem for both of the leggings.
The stat weights in Zerack's spreadsheet put Str at 2.89, ArP at 2.75, Crit at 1.56, and Haste at 1.5. Calculating all that out, you get a total score of 557.1 for [Legplates of Double Strikes] and 534.77 for [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] before gems, a difference of 22.33.
If we assume that you ignore the socket bonus for [Legplates of Double Strikes], and that he get the socket bonus for [Conqueror's Darkruned Legplates] (via 1 x [Bold Dragon's Eye] in the blue slot), then the difference in Strength gained through sockets is 15 Str, which is another 43.5 points. If he puts a prismatic in the blue slot for [Legplates of Double Strikes] and gems a [Inscribed Monarch Topaz] in the yellow socket to meet the socket bonus, then the difference in that case would be 16 Str vs. 8 Str 8 Crit, or 46.24 vs 35.6, for a difference of 10.64.
Of course, this is just a rough comparison, but it looks like [Legplates of Double Strikes] is slightly better. Also remember that ArP scales exponentially and that the more you have the more the next point is worth (because of the way ArP works in WoW). Because of that, I think saying something like, "there's already a lot of ArP on other Ulduar gear," just strengthens the argument in favor of [Legplates of Double Strikes].
Edited for grammar and such.
Last edited by Counter_Break : 05/08/09 at 9:36 PM.
While using Zerack's spreadsheet, I keep coming up with a discrepancy in the T8+ Unholy build Norg posted. Most of the gear comes out the same, but my calculation keeps suggesting [Frigid Strength of Hodir] in place of [Insurmountable Fervor] and [Drape of the Faceless General] in place of Drape of the Skyborn. Also, I'm being suggested that prismatic priority should now be given to the neck instead of legs.
I'm getting a Total Score of 8505.05 with my calculations, while Norg's setup returns 8498.26; pics to follow. I realize this is marginal, and not necessarily indicative of DPS, but it is something I'd like to better understand. I've come up with the same results regardless of what race I choose, whether or not Draenei Aura is present, or if it's 12/0/59 or 0/10/61.
Anyone able to rationalize why Norg's build may be better, and I'm getting a bum setup?
Calculation Results (Both builds use Voldrethar gemmed with 2x Bold Scarlet Ruby, just got cut off from the picture).
It seems to me as though the blood sets are significantly over the ArP cap ... are you treating these sets w/o sunder and FF?
As it has been mentioned several times before there is no real ArP cap, if you at some point with trinkets get so much ArP that you effectively reduce enemy armor by 100% it will simply continue to increase the physical damage done, call it negative armor if you want.
As it has been mentioned several times before there is no real ArP cap, if you at some point with trinkets get so much ArP that you effectively reduce enemy armor by 100% it will simply continue to increase the physical damage done, call it negative armor if you want.
Ah, thank you very much. I recently switched to blood and some people from my server said the cap was 24% or something so I wasn't entirely sure.
While using Zerack's spreadsheet, I keep coming up with a discrepancy in the T8+ Unholy build Norg posted. Most of the gear comes out the same, but my calculation keeps suggesting [Frigid Strength of Hodir] in place of [Insurmountable Fervor] and [Drape of the Faceless General] in place of Drape of the Skyborn. Also, I'm being suggested that prismatic priority should now be given to the neck instead of legs.
I'm getting a Total Score of 8505.05 with my calculations, while Norg's setup returns 8498.26; pics to follow. I realize this is marginal, and not necessarily indicative of DPS, but it is something I'd like to better understand. I've come up with the same results regardless of what race I choose, whether or not Draenei Aura is present, or if it's 12/0/59 or 0/10/61.
Anyone able to rationalize why Norg's build may be better, and I'm getting a bum setup?
Calculation Results (Both builds use Voldrethar gemmed with 2x Bold Scarlet Ruby, just got cut off from the picture).
Well I personally haven't had a proper play with Zerack's sheet yet so the sets in the OP are still primarily the ones I developed myself using little more than Methods' stat weights and some intuition. So Zerack's sheet is probably right on the neck/cloak combo. I would however imagine that the Algalon cloak may get re-jigged to have some of its stamina moved to strength, which would probably shift the balance back again.
I'm not seeing why the neck would be a better place for a prismatic gem than the legs though, unless there's no use for the hit on a str/hit orange gem?
Grim Toll is pretty good for Frost if you can use the hit, yeah. I honestly don't even know how great Bandit's is for Frost, but the Ulduar trinkets are mostly pretty lacklustre.
Mjolnir Runestone is possibly BiS for Frost, but I'm not totally sure on that so I just left it the same as T7 for the time being.
I can't comment on that, but I can tell you that getting the hitcap from Uld rings and phasing out the [Grim Toll] for the lolbadge trinket [Mirror of Truth] gave me a sensible dps increase.
Attack power is king for Frost. Moving away from Grim Toll i've felt no sensible change in Obliterate damage under the proccs, with the difference that with the Mirror I've been getting 16k Frost Strikes *without* the Sigil of the Vengeful Heart.
As a side note on how good ap is for frost, I noticed a dps increase from a lower iLvl trinket even if such change made me also lose 6 points of Expertise.
While using Zerack's spreadsheet, I keep coming up with a discrepancy in the T8+ Unholy build Norg posted. Most of the gear comes out the same, but my calculation keeps suggesting [Frigid Strength of Hodir] in place of [Insurmountable Fervor] and [Drape of the Faceless General] in place of Drape of the Skyborn. Also, I'm being suggested that prismatic priority should now be given to the neck instead of legs.
...
Anyone able to rationalize why Norg's build may be better, and I'm getting a bum setup?
Unfortunately I'm at work at this point, so I'm a bit limited in the analysis I can do. The computer here is fairly slow so it is difficult to check many gemming combinations, and I'm unable to access the results image that you posted. If you were able to host it here on EJ or on a personal site it's more likely that I could view it.
Using the set of gear listed currently in the OP as BiS Unholy T8 with no restrictions and the 12/0/59 weights in my spreadsheet (stolen from Methods), I come up with the following as the highest scored configuration of gems:
After looking at this gemming and considering the value of haste, I'm fairly certain that it makes sense. This set has 300 hit rating before any gems or socket bonuses, so the first thing is that [Etched Monarch Topaz] is going to have a value of only 2.99 * 8 = 23.92. [Fierce Monarch Topaz] will have a higher value of (2.99*8) + (1.51*8) = 36. Hit rating socket bonuses will also have zero value. So now, an analysis of each slot for gemming, in an order that makes sense to me right now from a top-down approach:
Shoulders: The socket bonus here is +hit, so it is worthless to us. Gem with strength. Hands: Same as shoulders. A hit socket bonus is worthless, so gem for strength. Ring: (Seal of the Betrayed King) This socket bonus is unknown, so it has zero value. Gem for strength. Bracers: Same as above. We don't know the value of the bonus, so gem for strength. Weapon: Using a Bold Dragon's Eye here would gain us 6 crit, or 8.4 points. Cloak: Bold Dragon's Eye gains us 6 agility, which is 6.48 points. Neck: Bold Dragon's Eye gains us 4 str, or 11.96 points. Boots: Bold Dragon's Eye gains us 6 str, or 17.94 points. Chest: Requires either two Dragon's Eyes or a Fierce Monarch Topaz and a Dragon's Eye. The value of the set bonus is 8.4 points. If we drop to a Fierce Monarch Topaz, we lose 8 STR - 8 HASTE, which is 12.08. Since this is more than the benefit of the socket bonus, it's only worth gemming for bonus here if we use two Dragon's Eye. Helm: Bonus is 8 STR, which is worth 23.92 points. Even if we use a Monarch Topaz, the bonus is still worth 11.84 points with the strength loss. Waist: Requires either two Dragon's Eyes or a Fierce Monarch Topaz and a Dragon's Eye. The value of the set bonus is 17.94 points. As before, subtracting the loss from using a Fierce Monarch Topaz leaves us at 5.85 value from the set bonus. Legs: Assuming a Bold Ruby in the red socket, this again requires 2 Bold or 1 of each Bold / Fierce. Value of the set is 23.92. If we use the Topaz, it's still 11.84 gained.
So that covers all of our gear. From here it's a matter of finding the best combination that results in the most points gained. It's apparent to me that using the Fierce Monarch Topaz to gain the bonus in the Helm / Legs along with a Dragon's Eye in the legs allows us to use the Dragon's Eye that remain in the neck and boots to get those set bonuses as well. The remaining set bonuses are either all a) Not valuable enough or b) require two Dragon's Eyes to activate, making them significantly less desirable from a gemming perspective.
Without looking at the results screenshot that you posted of your efforts, it's difficult to do much more than offer this. My hunch is that you didn't have Fierce Monarch Topaz checked for your gemming, which is why your results seemed odd. It's a valuable gem these days with haste being so good, so it shouldn't be forgotten. If that isn't / wasn't the issue, I'll have to take a closer look at it later today. Hope this is helpful.
Zerack, I think you (and a lot of other people) are using old information for many pieces. You say that set has 300 hit rating, when in reality it only has 285. Using the spreadsheet, I had to go and correct a lot of stats that are dated. Live stats can be found on the Armory. The set bonuses for Seal of the Betrayed King and Armbands of Bedlam are known, they've dropped on live. The only socket bonus we don't know is Drape of t he Skyborn (Algalon quest reward), and I have a feeling that the cloak itself was re-itemized to less stamina/more strength, although it could be just as it was displayed on Armory.
Still, your set uses too much hit, it's wasted. Swapping [item]Gauntlets of Ruthless Reprisal[item] and Drape of the Skyborne in gives a higher score, with a cozier hit rating of 266 (assuming Drape of the Skyborne doesn't lose any hit when it is found on live)
Picking up the Tier gloves and Drape of the Faceless General or one of the STR cloaks of Heroic Razorscale/Normal Ignis isn't a bad idea though, assuming Algalon will be as hard as the developers make it out to be.
I'll try and correct all of the incorrect values tomorrow during the day and repost an updated version. After that I'll re-run the analysis for that set and see what I come up with. With the data available for the rest of those pieces I should be able to make this more accurate.
One thing to note is that the sim does give accurate results within the parameters specified, so in cases like this where we suspect something is incorrect, the places we should go looking are our weights and our gear statistics. It's highly unlikely that the program is not producing an 'optimal' set for the values we are feeding it.
Do the BiS items take in account the bonuses for Tier 8? For instance would you do more dmg in the BiS gear based on the stats of the items despite the bonus?
I'll try and correct all of the incorrect values tomorrow during the day and repost an updated version. After that I'll re-run the analysis for that set and see what I come up with. With the data available for the rest of those pieces I should be able to make this more accurate.
One thing to note is that the sim does give accurate results within the parameters specified, so in cases like this where we suspect something is incorrect, the places we should go looking are our weights and our gear statistics. It's highly unlikely that the program is not producing an 'optimal' set for the values we are feeding it.
I think the problem with the excessive hit came in part from the sheet using out of date stats for some of the hard mode drops, and partly from you using the T8 gloves in your post rather than the ones used in the OP. I'll test it a little more in the sheet and update the OP if necessary.
Originally Posted by Unstopbubble
Do the BiS items take in account the bonuses for Tier 8? For instance would you do more dmg in the BiS gear based on the stats of the items despite the bonus?
They theoretically account for what the bonus equates to in DPS terms, yes. The 4pc bonus is kinda meh all round and Unholy would probably benefit from ditching it right now (which allows the use of ilvl 239 helm AND legs plus some gloves with less excessive hit). If more ilvl 239 loot turns up such as shoulders and gloves then it might end up beneficial for other specs to ditch 4pc T8 too. Certainly if ilvl 239 shoulders with ArPen on drop from Algalon, that would probably swing it for Blood.
I think the problem with the excessive hit came in part from the sheet using out of date stats for some of the hard mode drops, and partly from you using the T8 gloves in your post rather than the ones used in the OP. I'll test it a little more in the sheet and update the OP if necessary.
Ack. I hadn't noticed that I used the incorrect pair of gloves. Just being careless I suppose - it was unintentional, so I certainly wasn't attempting to redefine the 'best set' that has been decided on. Sorry about that. Hang tight on testing the sheet until I get the update set. The newest version will (read: should) correctly calculate total stat values including all gear and enchants, so it should make updating your set information significantly easier.
Also to make sure that I'm pulling the correct information into the spreadsheet this time around: Is the information on Armory a true reflection of what is currently in game? I believe it is, but someone who is a little more in touch with that subject might be able to give me a solid answer. My apologies for the inaccurate data the first time around. I didn't realize that wowhead hadn't updated their stat values after the re-itemization that happened a little bit before 3.1.
05/07/09, 11:39 PM
Similar Threads
