Ack. I hadn't noticed that I used the incorrect pair of gloves. Just being careless I suppose - it was unintentional, so I certainly wasn't attempting to redefine the 'best set' that has been decided on. Sorry about that. Hang tight on testing the sheet until I get the update set. The newest version will (read: should) correctly calculate total stat values including all gear and enchants, so it should make updating your set information significantly easier.
Also to make sure that I'm pulling the correct information into the spreadsheet this time around: Is the information on Armory a true reflection of what is currently in game? I believe it is, but someone who is a little more in touch with that subject might be able to give me a solid answer. My apologies for the inaccurate data the first time around. I didn't realize that wowhead hadn't updated their stat values after the re-itemization that happened a little bit before 3.1.
It's ok Zerack, I'm sure we can find it in our hearts to forgive you.
And yeah I'm pretty sure the Armory is up to date apart from not listing some socket bonuses.
I'm trying to make sure that I have the correct values now for most of this gear, but I'm afraid I'm unable to verify the value of 264 hit rating you have in the OP for the set in question. Using the set listed (with the correct gloves this time, I promise) and the gemming you state that uses two [Etched Monarch Topaz], the value that I come up with after double and triple checking my numbers is 257 hit. This comes from both the spreadsheet and my own manual addition. For reference:
Helm: 61 hit Shoulders: 41 hit Neck: 40 hit Waist: 47 hit Ring: 40 hit 2x Gem: 16 hit Icewalker Enchant: 12 hit
Total: 257 hit.
Now it's entirely possible that I've messed something up, but I swear that I've double checked all of these values from Armory, and I don't believe I'm missing any set bonuses that are hit related. There are some other values that no longer match as well, but since we've been primarily discussing hit as a metric for validating these sets I'll leave them out for now. Unfortunately I'm not able to post my updated spreadsheet from work, but if someone is feeling adventurous perhaps they could verify that 257 hit value for me, because if it's not correct then on of my items is still wrong in the spreadsheet.
It's also very likely that I've missed at least one value somewhere else in my spreadsheet, so when it does go out again if someone could put a second pair of eyes on the item values and let me know about any discrepancies, that would be pretty awesome.
Ah shit. I got the stats by plugging it all into Rawr and it seems it's guilty of the same thing the sheet was: using out of date values. It has outdated stats for Warhelm of the Champion which is adding an extra 8 hit rating.
Well, it's good to know I'm not the only one annoyed at the changing stats on this gear. Anyway, since we've resolved the hit issue I have a question about expertise since there's a possibility that I'm calculating something wrong and I'd like to fix it before I release the sheet again.
Using the same BiS Unholy set that we've been toying with, there are two items with expertise. They are
Together these give a total of 97 expertise rating and appear to be up to date on wowhead, as the values correspond to Armory. Now, from the Combat Rating At Level 80 thread, I see the value of
32.78998947 Expertise Rating = -1% Dodge / Parry.
Since each displayed expertise on our character sheets is -.25% Dodge / Parry, my assumption was then that dividing this rating by four would result in the expertise rating required to gain one character sheet expertise.
My question then is this. When I take the 97 expertise rating in this set and divide it by 8.2, the result is 11.83. My assumption then was that this meant that this set had 11 character sheet expertise, not 12as is displayed in the OP. Is this another example of outdated item values causing problems, or is there a greater intricacy to the expertise calculation that I'm not aware of?
To clarify, I'm showing the BiS Unholy set at 11 expertise from 97 rating, while on the OP it is listed as 12 expertise with (I presume) the same amount of rating. I'm concerned that I'm calculating expertise incorrectly.
I suspect Rawr may be rounding up the rating to get its expertise number, which is weird as that is not how it is done on the character sheet.
Would it be beneficial to list the expertise with the decimal places intact? Or is the stat truncated to the next lowest integer -- a la pet hit -- in function as well as character sheet display?
edit: btw if you didn't notice, the Wowhead tooltip states the expertise conversion at lvl 80, so you don't need to work it out manually
The evidence I can find says that expertise is in fact rounded down and is only as effective as the value shown on your character sheet. However, this is based on a wisp of remembered examples that I can recall and some quick, dirty google searching to confirm this. Someone who knows that this is the case for sure would be greatly appreciated.
I actually hadn't used this logic in my spreadsheet because I was unsure when I wrote the code, but I've changed it at this point so that some expertise points can be 'wasted'. That is to say, if you're at 24.1 expertise, adding rating to get to 24.5 won't cause any actual change in your gear score since the extra rating isn't benefiting your character at all.
It IS curious that Rawr would round up, since that's contrary to just about everything that we can see in game.
As someone noted over in the tanking thread, [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] has different stats on armory than on wowhead. I think its safe to assume that the armory has the correct stats for it. For orcs this pretty much kills any speculation over it being BiS as it beats Worldcarver by a fair margin.
If you can use the hit then BoUT are very slightly better. In the OP set though there is no use for the hit so BCA are therefore the better choice. For deciding what items are best on a slot by slot basis you are probably better off using the sta weights or something like Lootrank.
Originally Posted by Giske
As someone noted over in the tanking thread, [Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion] has different stats on armory than on wowhead. I think its safe to assume that the armory has the correct stats for it. For orcs this pretty much kills any speculation over it being BiS as it beats Worldcarver by a fair margin.
I'll update the OP with the correct Voldrethar stats. Thanks.
In light of the changes to hit totals discussed yesterday, the set is now below 8% hit even with the [Etched Monarch Topaz] included in the gemming. I'm curious to know if there has been any thought given to this, due to the fact that the ghoul would now be running only 7% hit instead of 8%.
Switching one of the yellow slots to a [Rigid Autumn's Glow] would of course overcome the discrepancy, but at that point we're gemming for 24 total hit rating, which seems like it could be better made up in gear somewhere. As a reminder, [Fierce Monarch Topaz] is also a very valuable gem for yellow sockets when we don't need the hit, so there may be some wiggling to do on this set.
This may in fact not be the case and 257 hit may be the way to go, but I felt that it was worth mentioning since we changed so many values yesterday and dropped down 1% hit on the ghoul as a result.
Does anyone have the Death Knight Gear Optimizer spreadsheet updated with the current stat values on gear?
I have an updated version. I was going to upload it last night, but ran into an issue wherein some extra dropdown boxes were spawned which I only fixed just before raid time. I will upload it around 4:15EST today. In addition to the updated stats, it also contains more accurately weighted trinkets and a few other changes that I'll detail when I upload it.
As a result of the removal of the extra dropdowns, this release is a bit smaller in filesize, as well.
Would replacing the gloves with the T8.5 gloves not solve this hit problem? It would also give you more str as well as allow you to replace the icewalker enchant on the boots w/ an ap one.
The unholy sets are looking very good overall I haven't looked at the blood set much in detail yet however looking at the non hard mode frost set it seems to not make best use of the available gear. Using the frost stat weights in both my spreadsheet and zeracks i'm getting a different set which makes a lot more sense based on the stat weights currently posted for frost. Frost is a little strange since Obliterate is obviously benifitting from ArmP but Frost Strike isn't however ArmP is valued much more then Haste.
Of the tier 8 pieces the legs and shoulders have a large amount of haste so using them in frost is not ideal since the value of haste is very low for frost, therefore if your gonig for the 4 part bonus you need to lose the shoulders or legs and see what else is available. On the weapon front based on the weights can't see anything with agility beating out Worldcarver or Earthsharper for non hard modes i'll have a bit more of a play around tommorow.
Anyway based on the stat weights i'm getting this:
Set 1
Weapon: Worldcarver
Helm: Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Neck: Might of the Leviathan
Shoulders: Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates (or Shoulderplates of Eternal for no set bonus slightly better stat synergy)
Cloak: Drape of the Drakerider
Chest: Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate
Wrist: Decimator's Armguards
Gloves: Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets
Belt: Girdle of Embers
Legs: Clockwork Legplates
Boots: Melancholy Sabatons
Ring 1: Strength of the Automaton
Ring 2: Power Enhancing Loop
Trinket 1: Bandit's Insignia
Trinket 2: Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Gives you 264 hit and 22 expt
Set 2: Alternately and especially for Dwarfs although i have half a thought about using a 3.6 speed weapon could be the most benificially to frost due to use of Frost Strike and Obliterate largely (i'm not sure if i'm making more of that then it really is)
Weapon: Earthshaper
Helm: Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet
Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen
Shoulders: Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates (or Shoulderplates of Eternal for no set bonus slightly better stat synergy)
Cloak: Drape of the Drakerider
Chest: Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate
Wrist: Decimator's Armguards
Gloves: Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets
Belt: Girdle of Embers
Legs: Clockwork Legplates
Boots: Melancholy Sabatons
Ring 1: Strength of the Automaton
Ring 2: Sif's Promise
Trinket 1: Bandit's Insignia
Trinket 2: Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Would replacing the gloves with the T8.5 gloves not solve this hit problem? It would also give you more str as well as allow you to replace the icewalker enchant on the boots w/ an ap one.
After some calculation time, it appears almost so, depending on how heavily you value the extra 1% hit on your ghoul. Personally I believe it may be worth it. Additionally, the tiered glove piece is going to be by-and-large easier to come by than an offset piece over the long run, so that's a benefit here.
So, you can see that from a purely weighted point of view, the OP still lists the BiS Unholy among these combinations. However, the swap to the Tier 8.5 gloves and a slightly different gemming / enchanting solution is better than simply switching to a pure +hit gem in one of the yellow sockets if you want to cap hit on your ghoul. All three sets are very close, but this is at least fairly informative. Scores are from the most recent version of my spreadsheet so they will be slightly higher than something you would get from it, as I've added enchant stat weights to the current version.
The reason I ask is that if using the T8 gloves, 22 'wasted' hit rating seems like a lot and would probably warrant a re-working of the entire set in order to get closer to 263.
Furthermore, if using the T8 gloves there would also then be a case for dropping the hard mode leggings in favour of the T8 ones to get the 4pc bonus.
Originally Posted by Graalz[/quote
The unholy sets are looking very good overall I haven't looked at the blood set much in detail yet however looking at the non hard mode frost set it seems to not make best use of the available gear. Using the frost stat weights in both my spreadsheet and zeracks i'm getting a different set which makes a lot more sense based on the stat weights currently posted for frost. Frost is a little strange since Obliterate is obviously benifitting from ArmP but Frost Strike isn't however ArmP is valued much more then Haste.
I haven't given the Frost sets as much love as I should tbh and I suspect they're not quite optimal, but it's something that needs work so thanks for your input. One thing I wondered was why hit rating is so highly rated for Frost on the stat weights. Can anyone enlighten me there? Couldn't see any comment in the Frost thread.
When I ran the simulations for the BiS with the differing pairs of gloves, I included both [Etched Monarch Topaz] and [Fierce Monarch Topaz] in the simulations as valid gems. What this means is the the weighted value of the sets I posted are the best available for those two different glove combinations. I calculated the value for the set with [Rigid Autumn's Glow] manually, although I suppose it could have also been done by enforcing the melee hit cap in the opening screen.
Don't forget that hit up to the spell cap is far from wasted. The weighted value for 12/0/59 in the spreadsheet right now is 0.88 AP, which isn't entirely trivial. I think it is this value that is causing the set with 285 hit to come out on top. The spreadsheet already checks all four enchant options (2 possibilities in each slot) when doing gemming, so the two options you've proposed will come out inferior to the options above score-wise. If required I can do the math, but there's no real way to 'force' the program to use a specific enchant - it always picks the combination that's best. If this post doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to clarify.
Also, I've posted the most recent version of my spreadsheet (1.3.1) up in my original post on page 5. Items statistics are updated and trinkets should be modeled more accurately. Please let me know if you find any discrepancies.
For the Unholy set, I don't understand why hit is such an issue. I've brought this up a couple of times now, using Drape of the Skyborne over Drape of the Faceless General while dropping Icewalker and hit gems gives an almost exact melee hit cap (265 rating), and gives a higher score than any combination I've seen. Other than probably being easier to get, is there any reason to hold onto DotFG? This is with up to date item values.
As far as hit having a huge weight for Frost, I would imagine a lot of it has to do with Frost Strike consuming RP on a miss.
I haven't given the Frost sets as much love as I should tbh and I suspect they're not quite optimal, but it's something that needs work so thanks for your input. One thing I wondered was why hit rating is so highly rated for Frost on the stat weights. Can anyone enlighten me there? Couldn't see any comment in the Frost thread.
Norg,
Hit is such a high weighted stat for Frost because most of the abilities that are used are 'Spells' instead of melee strikes, so Frost has to contend with the Spell Hit Cap, not just the Melee Hit Cap.
Hit is such a high weighted stat for Frost because most of the abilities that are used are 'Spells' instead of melee strikes, so Frost has to contend with the Spell Hit Cap, not just the Melee Hit Cap.
Only IT and HB are spells. They make up an amount of damage similar to (possibly less than, depending on which rotation you use) the amount that DC and IT do in a blood or unholy rotation. I believe wizard is correct that FS consuming RP on a miss is a large contributor.
Only IT and HB are spells. They make up an amount of damage similar to (possibly less than, depending on which rotation you use) the amount that DC and IT do in a blood or unholy rotation. I believe wizard is correct that FS consuming RP on a miss is a large contributor.
What makes Frost so difficult to gear is the fact that you have abilities benefits of ArPen and Exp., such as OB and BS, and then you have your main attack (FS) which is not physical, so it don't benefit from such things like Arp. or Exp. but of Haste.
Haste will only push FS in kind of providing more KM proccs.
05/12/09, 10:04 AM
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