Erekose

Reporting some more Data for ITx6, we just got our Hodir hardmode on the very last pull of the night...



14035 DPS, going by WMO that's #3 though we haven't uploaded the parse yet.

 

Valtiel

Congratulations for the achievement. It's number 4 theorycally (Recount shows active dps).

Watching the WMO page, I've observed a few interesting things.

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

In the absolutely top dps report page, only Arioch's Razorscale report is from someone using the ITx6 rotation, and considering that about 40% of his damage comes from HB, the point of that report is hardly the rotation.

Every other report from Frost on the page is from people using Blood Presence rotations. That is, the absolutely most "competitive" (vs all classes) reports come from people running BP rotations and in some cases HB ones.

Moving to the DK page (WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish) I've noticed a lot of diversity, but the vast majority of high reports are from BP reports, and very few from IT heavy setups. Considering for example Hodir, all the Frost DKs above Arioch play a BP HB glyph rotation.

I didn't have time to check the Frost specific page (WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish) which will be probably very interesting to see, but I can't help but notice that despite still having a BoH and not having seen a single Sigil of the Vengeful Heart in 8 weeks, I've got the highest report for Thorim and placing in several bosses - not only with inferior gear, but also with a theorycally inferior specc and rotation. And checking a few of the higher place people, there's quite a few with BP rotations.



I wish I had time to show some more practical and less statistical evidence, but it's something to consider when theorycrafting. IT heavy rotation (both ITx4 and ITx6) are very competitive and theorycally superior, but BP HB is exceedngly well represented too, and surprisingly the highest reports seem to be from OB heavy rotations. Another important factor to notice is that in basically all the reports where Frost is competitive with other specc, HB is at least 15-18% of the damage total. It's something important to evaluate.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

 

Lollersk8er

Quite nice, but Hodir is all about luck. Whoever gets the most buffs is on top. Would you mind logging off in your PvE gear the next time?


Did you people notice, that Blood is the best on pure single target bosses? Just have a look at Vezax, XT-002 hardmode and, to a lesser extent, Council hardmode. There would be more, but aoe 'abuse' often leads to useless reports (like Ignis, Thorim or Freya).

 

Valtiel

On point one, if you ever worked on Hodir hardmode, you will know it's nothing about luck but it's all about teamwork. Erekose was probably getting the +crit damage buff as often as possibile because people knew he benefited from it the most, but the key to the fight is Singed stacking, which comes from teamwork. I may get the +crit buff all day but if my raid isn't stacking singed, my FS is still critting 30k when it could crit 50k or more.


On point two, I would say AoE is hardly useless on Thorim and Freya, on the contrary; try to do Thorim with people doing 4-5k aoe dps in the arena. It's not fun.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

 

evodk

i will be going frost tomorrow and the 17-51-3 spec with the sigil of vengeful is what im going to be going with my question being Because [Glyph of Icy Touch] will leave you with an extra Unholy rune, any spec that uses this glyph will need to be a double disease rotation:

IT -> PS -> OB -> BS -> BS -> DUMP
OB -> IT ->PS -> IT -> IT -> DUMP

It important to note that the your Death Runes are much better spent on 2x IT than on OB. This is because while 2x IT will result in marginally less damage than OB, you will generate 25 more RP. The gain from this RP gen (and the additional FS it will eventually allow) far outweighs the damage loss from missing one OB.
While this rotation can be done in Blood Presence, it is generally a better idea to use Unholy Presence. This is because the use of many single rune attacks requires many GCDs in order to fit everything into the rotation while leaving time for FS spam.


Ok my question where in the rotation do u insert the FS in?? or will that be your dump? its my first time going frost so plz be nice... Thank you.

 

Gromdal

I'm really not sure why people are *still* trying to quantify rotations on bosses that are open to abuse using Recount screenshots. I've done both Thorim and Hodir hardmodes, and both are horribly misleading.

Thorim you can check World of Logs for the dps done on the engage of Thorim to remove the arena dps, and Hodir is entirely dependent on who fuels you with the most stormpower debuffs and ensuring you have dedicated people keeping singed on. Now, for ranged we have people fuelling the mages under the beams, but melee is a completely different kettle of fish due to the buff only applying to 5 people. The amount of times I've seen SP apply to a melee and still not seen it despite knowing it benefits me most is shocking. It's about teamwork for fuelling your ranged, but it's still random as hell for any guild using a regular melee setup (we have 2 of our tanks spec DPS for this fight rather than stack in 2 extra dedicated dps pushing us close to 8-9 melee).


Well done on 14k, but I don't think its anything we can reliably use to say "Oh look 20/51 is just as viable if not better" past what you've already provided us parse-wise.

 

Valtiel

Why in the bloody heavens you should remove the arena dps? Unless you're doing hard mode, it's the most challenging part of the fight. If the tunnel team has problems, good dps in the arena can save the raid. It makes as much sense as wanting to remove dps on the 3 drakes in an OS3D run because "only dps on Sartharion matters". I've actually never seen a raid engage Thorim normal without killing him, but I've seen quite a bit failing the tunnel or the arena.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

 

Gromdal

I'm talking specifically about hardmode, which I mentioned in my post, stating that logs from both Thorim and Hodir hardmodes are misleading. Until Thorim enters that arena it's perfectly acceptable for the unholy and frost DKs to faceroll their keyboard and attain 6-7k dps. As long as you pest IT around and hammer HB on KM procs and dump FS into evokers you're golden. It's not until you actually get to the single target part of the fight that you can start to analyse the log data on your chosen rotation.

 

Valtiel

Considering I generally float around 9-12k in the arena as Frost, which allows us to often run it with 2 tanks and 2 dpsers, I would say there's a solid difference in how you "faceroll" it. Aoe dps requires rotations too, and there's a lot of finesse in how you handle that phase, unless you decide to stack half a dozen dpsers that would be better spent on the tunnel. I don't want to start a petty argument over this, and I don't want to read more aggression than due in your post, but the mentality of dismissing AoE as "facerolling" will get you stuck on 6-7k dps in places where you can do twice as much.

AoE has rotations too, and actually it requires a lot of decisionmaking. Considering how much relevant AoE Ulduar bosses feature, it's not a bad idea to make sure you have a solid AoE rotation too.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

 

Amroo

Just because a boss has mechanics that affect damage output, it doesn't mean that results from this boss are invalid. Every week roughly a bazillion guilds kill Hodir hard mode and after a while all the top parses will be from people who more or less have permanent SP uptime. Among this group a comparison of specs is easily valid.
Of course, the point about recount screenshots is true, because SP uptime cannot be checked this way. But he wrote that the parse will be uploaded at some point for further analysis (and if he gets these numbers with anything short of highest possible SP uptime it would be more than impressive).

Also, the point Valtiel made is more than valid. It doesn't make any sense to focus solely on single target DPS and leave the multi target aspects of a spec unobserved. Most bosses have AoE components at some point and having superior AoE abilities at almost no single target DPS loss trivializes a lot of mechanics.

 

Gromdal

I'm not disputing the fact that you should have an efficient prioritised ability AOE rotation, I'm disputing that examining the output of damage in that phase is irrelevant when looking at the merits of any of these single target rotations with regards to people posting logs of the whole fight.

The fact that AoE damage is so prevalent throughout Ulduar skewing the data is something I can agree with wholeheartedly, and sure there is more to making sure you're pesting and HBing both Brundir and Steelbreaker to bump your recount stats, but at the end of the day the most reliable piece of data is always going to be the burn phase on Steelbreaker in the last third of that fight, which is where my guild uses World of Logs to examine the meaningful dps. Everything up to that point is largely irrelevant in how you get there, as long as you get there fast.

 

Valtiel

Yes, but going to the point of saying that everything happens before is irrelevant is too much.

Using the example of Iron Council 10 hardmode, I was third on damage as Blood during a particular takedown on the Steelbreaker specific part (behind a lock and sensibly behind a rogue), yet I was first overall because I held around 7k dps on the two previous adds and that amount of dps made reaching Steelbreaker in good shapes and with people on decent levels of mana much easier. I wouldn't devalue that contribution below that of the rogue and lock only because they did more damage over the last 40 seconds of the fight.

And while you're right discussing that AoE is often not relevant to the comparison of rotation, for Frost in particular the HB glyph has a potentially very relevant impact on rotations. I for example run a theorycally inferior single target dps specc and rotation just for the flexibility it gives me when aoe is in need. Considering I would be achieving more single target dps with any other DK specc, I prefer to invest into Frost's strengths instead of pursuing other classes and speccs in a role that Frost can't fill as well at the moment.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

 

Erekose

I see this attitude time and time again and I'm not a huge fan of it. Yes, there are bosses with a DPS check like Steelbreaker, like Thorim, like Freya, like XT hard where as soon as you actually get to them you need to get them down FAST before something chaotic happens and someone dies. Sometimes on fights the only thing that 'matters' is your single target DPS...and that is not Frost's best area. When I moved from Frost to Blood on XT Hard the other night by heart DPS went up by 1-2k.

This means that Blood has higher single target, but it does not mean that Frost is down-and-out inferior because of the amount of AoE going on in some of the encounters. AoE matters in Ulduar, and Frost is also very malleable when it comes to switching targets (1 global setup as opposed to 2 for Blood/Unholy to do max DPS) which is also key in Ulduar.

If you want the best of the best single target DPS go Blood and never look back. However, I am still of the opinion that Frost has a definite time to shine on a LOT of the Ulduar fights...and on those that it doesn't, I have lots of extra glyphs and respeccing isn't that hard. Blizzard has stated time and time again that certain specs/classes will do better on certain bosses due to the nature of the fight..you just have to use the tools at your disposal in order to maximize your DPS potential...and imo Frost has a lot of tools that match up with Ulduar.

Edit: As for "skewing" the meters or posting "bogus" recount shots...The only bogus shots are of you vs a target dummy which no one cares about...Our parse still isn't up yet so I can't link that, but I mean....Sure, Hodir Hard takes a little bit of luck but its not like I just faceroll FS and scream IM SO GOOD AT THIS GAME. It requires teamwork with breaking Flash Freeze's on NPCs, communication for proper use of Storm Power, etc. Everyone else in the world has access to the same mechanics on the fight and I am not in possession of powers that are unique to me: if I can do it, you can do it (assuming similar gear and time put in, etc). Will post the parse as soon as its available, because while I do think I got 2-3 Storm Power buffs that particular attempt didn't feel overly ridiculous for me personally as compared to the previous attempts of the night (like reaching 13.1k before 35% and then having to wipe because the rest of the DPS wasn't up there QQ). We can go much higher.

Edit2: Just logged off in my PvE gear but its not updating on Armory, here are the stats:

Unbuffed (no Horn) I'm sitting at 4238 AP, 382 hit rating (14.56% spell), 22.20% crit, 19 expertise, 234 ArP (19%), 74 (2.93% haste) with 1865-2233 topend.

 

animus

Is there a consensus as to which double disease build is better between 13/5/7 for the increased disease length, compared to the standard 17/51/3 build?

The OP as well as various replies in this thread indicate DK's that run double disease as 17/51/3.

 

Saabik

While frost scales well with the storm power buff, casters [mages] scale better. The fight is heavily RNG based, and if you happen to be using a strategy that moves storm cloud to certain groups, it should be towards the caster group. Check the top parses, and see what kind of damage the mages are doing when they get the same amount of storm power uptime - 15-16k is pretty standard.

Additionally, repeat the same kind of DPS over the course of 10 attempts. That will give you a far better average of what DPS each class is capable of over the course of time. Ranged should be consistently higher (mostly due to the haste mechanic of the fight and how much it benefits them vs melee), unless they are at a far lower skill level.

 

Valtiel

I think that's not completely correct - Frost DKs probably scale as well as mages if not better with Storm Power, but they don't scale nearly as well with Singed. Which is probably the reason for Erekose to lead in that report - Singed stacking wasn't working too well, and honestly it's the hardest part of the fight.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

 

Lollersk8er

Blood also has very good aoe damage with HS. Unless there are more than 5-6 target it's at least equal. Which hardmodes do really require mass aoe? There are only Freya's Lashers and that phase is faily easy, Unholy is miles ahead of Frost there anyway (I don't count Thorim, since the mass adds aren't even elite). For bosses like Mimiron is cleave very strong, maybe too much.
Frost really shines at Hodir, due to the crit damage buff there. For every other boss Blood is equal or better. More damage and better tools. The massive amount of selfheal is very useful for hardmodes and you have nice burst skills. Frost has UA and that's it. You can see the lack of cooldowns for Bloodlust very well on WoWLog, Frost scales poorly with it.
I love Frost and I wish it would be competitive, but that's just the case under the best circumstances and with a good amount of luck.

 

Nen

Frost is very competitive once you get the sigil, on Hodir it destroys blood and unholy without any effort. Dlashers are actually one of the harder parts of a Freya +3 kill.

 

Saabik

Depends on the build I suppose, but the ITx6 build on Hodir benefits 75% from Singed:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The haste buff, however, is what scales poorly with Frost DKs and amazing with Mages. They should be top DPS.

From the parses I provided (look for "all attempts" and go to damage done) you can see a more averaged result. Frost is by far the best spec for this fight (for DKs), but the ranged should be doing 10-20% more than frost on average.

 

Razorscale

I apologize if this has been posted, but has anyone evaluated [Wrathstone] for Frost? Right now I activate it with Unbreakable Armor and the results seem good. However, I'm not sure whether or not Mirror of Truth is worth giving up. I looked around but I couldn't find anything related to Frost and Wrathstone.

 

Lollersk8er

The [Wrathstone] has the same cd as UA, so you can always use them together. That's better than a random proc.

 

fr86

Ignis DPS from last night as 20/51.

So far my experience with this spec has been positive, can sustain over 6k dps on most fights in 25 man (check the other bosses from world of logs for the night).

 

Milano

UA only increases strength so there's no synergy between those at all. [Wrathstone] only offers controlable burst and is weaker compared to proc trinkets for sustained dps. I dont think [Wrathstone] is BiS or even close to for any class/spec.

 

Bloodmourne

Nice parse. Been testing out machine gun myself and have not had the numbers i had hoped for like that. Where you in BP? UP?

Also, op has the machine gun rotation as
OB -> OB -> BS -> BS -> DUMP
IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> DUMP

is this the best rotation? Saw somewhere this was not the rotation to use, there was another that was more fluid and better overall dps. If that is the case, probably want to change that on the op

 

Travex

^Would have been useful to mention the rotation you think it should be. The "DUMP" at the end is misleading and you really should be weaving in your FS's between the other moves. Otherwise I don't see a better way to do it.