I just did some fast and dirty math and, um, someone slap me but it looks like (for Dual Wield - Frost) BS spam > IT spam assuming the new patch note changes go in as currently written.
Um, lolwhut?
That just can't be. I must be wrong and silly. So please, theorycrafters, set me right. See math notes below.
Assumptions: 1xDisease for IT and 2xDiseases for BS which are not shown obviously, crit not calculated, IT assumes talented bonuses, RP being equal FS out is the same, ArPen should be more a factor for BS than IT, Crit should be more a factor for IT
Ob / Ob / IT / IT / ITx6
Stonerender x 2 = 681.6 + 681.6 + 800 + 800 + 4800 = 7143.2
RP with this cycle = 15 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 60 = 110
notes: Glyph for HB to start
Ob / Ob / BS / BS / BSx6
Stonerender x2 = 681.6 + 681.6 + 851.4 - 851.4 + 3405.6 = 8174.4
RP with this cycle = 15 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 60 = 110
notes: Glyph of Disease (replace HB), IT/PS to start
You wouldn't be doing 6xIT without the IT glyph and Chill of the Grave, which give 25 RP per IT, adding 15x8=120 RP to each rotation. Just under 4 FS's per rotation is the reason 6xIT is better (and needs to be done in UP).
Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.
It's a bit early to make assumptions right now since its hard to tell whether more melee damage will offset the weaker (right? unless my math is off) weapon strikes. I'm going to start collecting 1 handers just in case of course.
I'm curious what speed of one-handed weapons will be more desirable? I would venture a guess with slow/slow to maximize the double strike damage from the new Threat of Thassarian talent while keeping a slow main hand for increased Killing Machine procs.
I'm curious what speed of one-handed weapons will be more desirable? I would venture a guess with slow/slow to maximize the double strike damage from the new Threat of Thassarian talent while keeping a slow main hand for increased Killing Machine procs.
Slow/Slow will probably be the most desirable, as you'll want the highest possible strike damage and as a fast weapon has no real advantage to it.
I'm curious what speed of one-handed weapons will be more desirable? I would venture a guess with slow/slow to maximize the double strike damage from the new Threat of Thassarian talent while keeping a slow main hand for increased Killing Machine procs.
Another question would be how this would be coded, if it is combining both of your weapons into a single attack or if it is 2 attacks whirlwind style (probably the latter), if so, how killing machine will interact with DW frost strike.
Another question would be how this would be coded, if it is combining both of your weapons into a single attack or if it is 2 attacks whirlwind style (probably the latter), if so, how killing machine will interact with DW frost strike.
And for that matter how Obliterate will react with rime procs, how Death Strike will react with healing, etc. There are alot of variables and there are also alot of changes to come in the near future before the patch releases to really start speculating anything.
Always wondered this. In BiS thread, it says that for cloak enchant haste is best for all 3 specs. However if you look at the stat weights for frost, agility comes ahead of haste.
I'm more interested in how DW will interact with killing machine. Unless I am mistaken, KM does not proc from off hand attacks, so you will have a faster weapon (2.6-ish) only proccing KM which will then have a 13% miss rate (assuming DW talents and 8% hit).
Speaking of DW talent, I wonder how the 15% will interact with off hand strike damage.
I'm more interested in how DW will interact with killing machine. Unless I am mistaken, KM does not proc from off hand attacks, so you will have a faster weapon (2.6-ish) only proccing KM which will then have a 13% miss rate (assuming DW talents and 8% hit).
KM is a proc per minute base that is increased by your haste ratings. The speed of your weapon itself doesn't effect how many procs you get, only how much haste you have.
I am curious about the wording in the ToT talent.
I wonder if the OH strike will just be MH strike end damage *0.5, or if OH weapon damage will actually have some bearing on the OH strike's damage.
I would assume this will be like mutilate and the off-hand weapon's damage will be what is used to determine its contribution to the strike's damage. Under that assumption, DK's would want two slow (2.6+ attack speed) one-handers.
Once again, I can't see the logic of making Frost the DW tree.
Both blood and Uh have more desireable talents for a DW build.
Blood is a no brainer - with DW builds, white damage is where the money is, and Dark Conviction and Dark Vengeance are gonna contribute to that more than almost any other talent in the trees. It's already clear that Blood Gorged will be out of the way, but it would once again be the best tier 10 talent set for a DW build. VotTW, Hysteria... blood is brilliant for DW.
Unholy also has plenty of goods for DW builds. Blood Caked Blades, Necrosis, Impurity, Gargoyle, the pet.
Now, ToT changes the way we look at DW because it does away with the idea that abilites not based on weapon damage are "bad" for it.
However, this also removes much of the charm of Frost. HB isn't the best FU strike for DW anymore (thank god, because going 51 frost will be impossible). So what now the Frost tree has to offer to DW?
More or less nothing. There's basically no post tier 3 talent that will interact well with DW. Frost strike will be nice, but with ToT working on Death Strike, DW builds would perform a lot better if ToT was a blood or even unholy talent.
Besides, if you take Frost strike, you can't take Bloody Vengeance, nor Dark Conviction. You're gonna spend points in talents that are inferior for DW builds just to get to a strike that will yes be better than DC but probably not so better than what DC plus all the goodies you're giving up to would have been.
That's about it. I can't understand Blizzard's obsession for making Frost the DW tree when it's the one that has less synergy with DW speccs.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
Once again, I can't see the logic of making Frost the DW tree.
[...]
That's about it. I can't understand Blizzard's obsession for making Frost the DW tree when it's the one that has less synergy with DW speccs.
The Frost tree needed some work anyway, so it's good that they kinda turn it into the DW tree. Blood and Unholy are two very fine talent trees, there's no need to throw them over.
Once again, I can't see the logic of making Frost the DW tree.
Both blood and Uh have more desireable talents for a DW build.
Blood is a no brainer - with DW builds, white damage is where the money is, and Dark Conviction and Dark Vengeance are gonna contribute to that more than almost any other talent in the trees. It's already clear that Blood Gorged will be out of the way, but it would once again be the best tier 10 talent set for a DW build. VotTW, Hysteria... blood is brilliant for DW.
Unholy also has plenty of goods for DW builds. Blood Caked Blades, Necrosis, Impurity, Gargoyle, the pet.
Now, ToT changes the way we look at DW because it does away with the idea that abilites not based on weapon damage are "bad" for it.
However, this also removes much of the charm of Frost. HB isn't the best FU strike for DW anymore (thank god, because going 51 frost will be impossible). So what now the Frost tree has to offer to DW?
More or less nothing. There's basically no post tier 3 talent that will interact well with DW. Frost strike will be nice, but with ToT working on Death Strike, DW builds would perform a lot better if ToT was a blood or even unholy talent.
Besides, if you take Frost strike, you can't take Bloody Vengeance, nor Dark Conviction. You're gonna spend points in talents that are inferior for DW builds just to get to a strike that will yes be better than DC but probably not so better than what DC plus all the goodies you're giving up to would have been.
That's about it. I can't understand Blizzard's obsession for making Frost the DW tree when it's the one that has less synergy with DW speccs.
This discussion should go no further.
First of all, don't come here to complain, especially if you're not going to do anything about it. If you don't want to DW, then don't! They didn't nerf 2H Frost at all.
Second. We gain 2 talents points from the BotN buff (3/3 instead of 5/5) and if you think HB is ideal to pull a point out of then you're all set with 3/3 ToT and you didn't have to change a damn thing else.
This discussion should go no further.
First of all, don't come here to complain, especially if you're not going to do anything about it. If you don't want to DW, then don't! They didn't nerf 2H Frost at all.
Second. We gain 2 talents points from the BotN buff (3/3 instead of 5/5) and if you think HB is ideal to pull a point out of then you're all set with 3/3 ToT and you didn't have to change a damn thing else.
This thread shouldn't devolve into whining, but just based on the patch notes, I am not convinced 2h frost will remain viable. It wasn't directly nerfed compared to DW, but the trade-off seems to be 4 free talent points (2h doesn't need NoCS or ToT, DW doesn't need 2h spec) vs. significantly better AP scaling. I don't know where ToT is going to wind up in the frost tree, but keep in mind that 2h frost puts 6 points into Icy Talons/IIT to get down the tree. That's not a great investment, since I think most guilds run an enhancement shaman anyways, and haste is our worst stat.
So, if ToT isn't placed any lower than HC in the talent tree, then DW frost can just skip the IT line and put two points elsewhere (maybe Icy Reach?). That makes the talent point investment more or less a wash, and DW is left with better scaling. Although to be fair, there are still a lot of unknowns, and details like how KM interacts with DW strikes could change things.
tl;dr: We'll have to see how the PTR shakes out, but I do think there's cause to be worried about the future of 2h frost.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Frost might still do okay with 2H. We didn't specifically nerf their 2H abilities. We just gave them a talent to make DW more viable. I don't honestly know how 2H Frost dps stacks up in 3.2 at the moment.
Reads to me that if 2h frost is still viable, it's a happy accident, but not a playstyle they are focused on.
Reads to me that if 2h frost is still viable, it's a happy accident, but not a playstyle they are focused on.
Given what they've said about 2H vs. DW for DKs before, I'd think that their goal is to make DW and 2H frost equally viable. I'm guessing he just means that they haven't gotten around to seeing how 2H frost stacks up against DW-frost, blood, and unholy in 3.2, which is somewhat logical given that it's gotten the fewest changes of them all relatively speaking.
My question is, does the BS change make the double-disease rotation pull ahead of the 6xIT single-disease rotation? I'd think that that's the primary reason for that change in the first place, to indirectly nerf single-disease rotatons.
This discussion should go no further.
First of all, don't come here to complain, especially if you're not going to do anything about it. If you don't want to DW, then don't! They didn't nerf 2H Frost at all.
Second. We gain 2 talents points from the BotN buff (3/3 instead of 5/5) and if you think HB is ideal to pull a point out of then you're all set with 3/3 ToT and you didn't have to change a damn thing else.
This isn't about "complaining" - this is about theorycraft. Soon we will be looking at optimal builds for DW speccs, and we will also be looking for the best option for Frost dps, which will likely become a DW option.
However to get optimal results, we will need to compare talents with other trees and the issues I raised will be extremely obvious to anybody. Frost will stay an inferior dps tree for 2hander dps, and DW will probably dip in Frost high enough to get ToT and then predate the first 4 tiers of the two other trees. That's not exactly brilliant design, if you ask me.
It's true, I don't want to DW - but if we want to see DW implemented successfully, it would make more sense to put it where it can work. Making DW work around Frost is essentially like putting Improved Cat Form in the Balance tree; that's the entire point.
The old optimal DW builds splashed talent points between different trees without getting to the top of anything - nothing really changed for Frost. Now, there's a good reason to go up to Frost Strike. However, there's now almost no reason to go past it, while before HB was attractive to DW because of inferior DW strike damage.
Essentially a Frost DWer will be forced to choose between AoE (and going 51 frost) or single target dps, in which case he will go 41 frost and use the other points likely in Unholy, or even go only up to ToT and spend all other talents into the other trees. Try to reread my post - the point isn't that DW isn't attractive to Frost. That would be like you state personal whining. The point is that Frost isn't attractive to DW.
It's not a coincidence that the crrently "viable" DW builds are Unholy ones. Nothing changed, except the fact that we were given a DW talent in the least DW oriented tree.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
Nothing changed, except the fact that we were given a DW talent in the least DW oriented tree.
Frost was the least DW viable tree because it is heavily strike based. And now there's a DW talent that will make DW strike-based builds viable. So, nothing changed except for pretty much everything.
And if you're going down to FS already, putting points into GoG and Tundra Stalker is a no-brainer. I completely sympathize with not wanting frost to be DW only, but I think the whole premise of your post is flawed. Blizzard wants frost to be the DW tree (although hopefully not exclusively DW), so it will be. If ToT isn't enough to ensure that, then they'll make additional changes. However, I have a hard time believing that any build that goes down to FS will be better served by not going all the way to TS. There was theorycrafting prior to 3.1 going live that FS/permaghoul PvP specs would be good, but it turned out that the DPS loss from not having GoG/TS was horrible, making it infeasible. I would imagine the same thing will apply here, since some quick napkin math on my last WWS shows that I would have lost about 12% overall damage without TS (not even counting the expertise). You can't make up for that with any of the early Unholy/Blood talents.
Frost was the least DW viable tree because it is heavily strike based. And now there's a DW talent that will make DW strike-based builds viable. So, nothing changed except for pretty much everything.
And if you're going down to FS already, putting points into GoG and Tundra Stalker is a no-brainer. I completely sympathize with not wanting frost to be DW only, but I think the whole premise of your post is flawed. Blizzard wants frost to be the DW tree (although hopefully not exclusively DW), so it will be. If ToT isn't enough to ensure that, then they'll make additional changes. However, I have a hard time believing that any build that goes down to FS will be better served by not going all the way to TS. There was theorycrafting prior to 3.1 going live that FS/permaghoul PvP specs would be good, but it turned out that the DPS loss from not having GoG/TS was horrible, making it infeasible. I would imagine the same thing will apply here, since some quick napkin math on my last WWS shows that I would have lost about 12% overall damage without TS (not even counting the expertise). You can't make up for that with any of the early Unholy/Blood talents.
Still, none of the post FS talents in frost is more attractive to a DW than Necrosis, Blood Caked Blade, Dark Conviction and expecially Dark Vengeance.
Frost was bad for DW because it had nothing that synergized with DWing, while other trees had. This is what didn't change. ToT would work equally well in Blood or Unholy, and we would be able to build more performing DW dks.
Now, let's stop arguing about what it should have been and let's focus on seeing where ToT is put so we can start comparing builds.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
Just because you want Frost to not be the DW build doesn't mean that you're right. GoG and TS are going to be no less potent for DW than they are for 2h.
How is Bloody Vengeance especially better for DW than Tundra Stalker? It's not.
Bloody Vengeance is a 9% physical damage boost at full stacks.
Tundra Stalker is a 15% boost to physical and magical damage just from having FF up. It also gives 5 expertise.
GoG is still going to be boosting the crit damage of Oblit (which will still have a high crit rate) and FS (which will still be your highest source of damage and will still get KM procs).
HB will still be a monster on AoE, and still gets Rime procs, and will still be a good way to spend a talent point.
Still, none of the post FS talents in frost is more attractive to a DW than Necrosis, Blood Caked Blade, Dark Conviction and expecially Dark Vengeance.
Really interested in your theorycrafting here, do you have any math to back up 15% more damage, 5 expertise and 45% crit damage bonus being inferior to the talents you listed ( the ones you wouldn't get anyways )
Frost was bad for DW because it had nothing that synergized with DWing, while other trees had. This is what didn't change. ToT would work equally well in Blood or Unholy, and we would be able to build more performing DW dks.
Er, back when DW as a strong DPS spec, weren't the only DW builds unholy with a heavy frost splash and frost with a heavy unholy splash? I fail to see how things like heart strike, imp DS and DRW were more dual wield oriented than Howling blast or glacial rot or black ice though... And unholy is already horrifically bloated and getting moreso.
Bloody Vengeance also works on autoattacks. That won't make it overtake 15% ability damage but it is something to consider.
I would say the potential blood has for DW is that with It's 19% damage, 10% ArP, 8% STR, it has significantly stronger auto attacks than frost or UH .Since high auto attack damage has been the main strength of DW in the past people gravitate to the tree that represents that style of DW.
I've been trying to do some math in regards to how the new ToT will function with strikes, although with the terrible wording I'm still unsure as to how the strike damage will be determined so I'll throw out the numbers for the most popular ideas. I've been running the numbers on my own weapons, [Earthshaper] for 2h, and my dual wield weapons currently are [Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm] and [Void Sabre].
Unbuffed I'm running 4075 AP dual wielding, 4199 AP with my 2 hander. I'll run the numbers on both obliterate and frost strike as they 'should' remain our biggest hitters (assuming blood strike doesn't remain in its ridiculous incarnation). Additional damage from modifiers such as glacier rot is not being included as both dual wield and 2h should scale equally and percent difference would remain the same.
With [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]
2h Frost strike w/ Vengeful heart - (55% * 1900.409) + 430 = 1475.225
Main + Main * 0.5 - ((55% * 1163.571) + 430) * 1.5 = 1604.946
Main + Off * 0.5 - ((55% * 1163.571) + 430) + ((55% * 555.778) + 430) * 0.5 = 1437.803
Main + Off - ((55% * 1163.571) + 430) + ((55% * 555.778) + 430) = 1805.642
The main factor that really affects the numbers between 2h vs either of the dual wield builds is the flat damage portions that we receive on strikes, as either dual wield possibility would appear to gain 1.5 times the flat bonus plus the effect of sigils is given greater value. Also, assuming the Main + Off * 0.5 situation, although a slower offhand would result in higher strike damage from the weapon, the difference is suprisingly small due to the fact that offhand damage is already cut in half, then in half again from the strike, and on strikes other than Glyphed obliterate, cut further as only a portion of weapon damage is taken into account for the strike. Including Nerves of cold steel, the base damage of a post-3.2 frost strike would only increase by 15.813 on a weapon with 100 higher average damage.
The last important factor to look at would be the attack power scaling of each possibility due to the effect of normalization on strikes:
2 hander(w/ 2 handed weapon spec) - (3.3 * 1.04) = 3.432
Main + Main * 0.5 - 2.4 + (2.4 * 0.5) = 3.6
Main + Off * 0.5(w/ nerves of cold steel) - 2.4 + ((2.4 / 2 * 1.15) * 0.5) = 3.09
Main + Off(w/ nerves of cold steel) - 2.4 + (2.4 / 2 * 1.15) = 3.78
06/19/09, 10:14 AM
