Lynri

So what do you during the period of time in which you used to fill with FS but due to nerf (of 4set t7/7.5) really can't in Unholy Presence? There's generally a 1-2 second gap. And from my personal tests on a dummy I found Blood = Unholy for the heavy OB rotation using IT glyph. Slightly less if you're still running 4set due to the rp generation (though minor it is)

I've had other Dk's I talk to on my own server test this out as well an average about the same dps as well at varying gear levels. As mentioned in my post which the only edit was to add Veliya's name to the beginning of it, Blood Presence can alleviate issues she's experiencing with gaps in rotation while using Unholy Presence and in some cases be Blood > Unholy.

Would you mind collecting information showing where it was a drastic dps difference between Unholy Presence vs Blood Presence as you say? Even if it's your own personal meters is fine. As well as the rotation you used for the tests?

Personally you shouldn't spec/gear specifically for AMS soaks. It's great to be able to but not a requirement for dps if you can manage equivalent or better dps without it. It depends heavily on situation. In Blood Presence I don't have an issue with AMS soaks or the usage of UA as well from continuous testings in both Dummy and Heroics (currently tested in Nexus - UK - UP - Gundrak - DTK only though) I plan on further testing with WWS in tonight's Ulduar for my guild.

 

Nightseye

FOR USE OF FROST DEATH KNIGHTS ON GENERAL VEZAX INTERRUPT DUTIES ONLY:

If you have an abundance of hit on your current gear, consider using 17/53/1 with the 2 points in Endless Winter instead of Virulence. This allows you much more freedom in your Frost Strikes because you don't need to worry about not having Runic Power for Searing Flames interrupts. Even if you only have the bare minimum 263 HR (10% spell hit), having a Shadow Priest/Boomkin in your raid in combination of a Draenei Aura in your group will provide you with 15% Spell hit, which is an acceptable amount for any boss encounter.

 

Erekose

This was brought up in the previous thread and explained, but I'll clarify with the hopes that this issue will be put to rest or at least better understood.

The 4pt7 nerf hurts rotations that use OB a lot in order to generate RP for FS. By using IT on the death runes we make up the RP difference, and I can't disagree with you more when you say that you shouldn't be preparing (can't really spec/gear for it...) to use AMS offensively. As you can see via Kroot/Darkside's excellent boss summary there are VERY few fights where you can't use AMS soaks, and the plain and simple fact is that Unholy Presence can dump those FS without drastically altering (read: screwing up) the rotation whereas Blood Presence can't.

As for the rotation I was running, it was IT BS BS BT OB OB opener, then use the death runes to IT, otherwise spam OB and use Rime procs when they happen. As for the data, I don't believe I took a SS and I'm trying to avoid posting Recount shots as they can be very misleading, but I was ~3900-4050 w/ the above mentioned rotation in UP, and ~3500-3600 with BP. I credit the difference to being able to pump out more FS while keeping runes on CD. In BP my RP would fill up too quickly for me to expend it along with my rune abilities.

 

richard

Mind Freeze uses melee hitcap mechanics (8%).

 

Obeidat

Maybe its nice to add where to fit UA in rotations and add some essential macros in the OP.

 

• Darkside

Why shouldn't we spec/gear for AMS soaking? As I've shown in the OP, every single boss in Ulduar, with the exception of Vezax, has some magic damage component that can be taken advantage of with AMS. With that level of consistency, there are exaclty ZERO reasons why you should not consider AMS when creating a rotation and deciding between UP and BP.

Different topic: I posted this a while back, but here is some rudimentary mathematical analysis regarding the BP/UP issue.

Assume the following:

• Attacks done in Blood Presence do 15% more damage than Unholy Presence.
• Unholy Presence has 15% more auto attacks than Blood (and therefore 15% more KM procs).
• Unholy Presence has 50% more GCDs than Blood.

Because of the way auto-attack mechanics work, a 15% increase in haste is equivalent to a 15% increase in total damage, so we do not have to consider white hits in our analysis.

Blood specials will do 15% more damage, but UP gets 50% more. Therefore, so long as you spend at least (1.15/1.5 = 77%) attacking, you will come out ahead with more damage. In other words, you are allowed ~2.5s out of every 10 to be doing nothing as frost, and you will come out ahead in Unholy Presence.

Now, in my experience after I have gotten my initial rotation set up (I've done at least one full cycle), I have almost 0 downtime as Frost in UP, even without 4p T7. As such, it would appear as if UP superior.

However, we must realize that this relationship only holds if the players in the two opposing presences are using the same attacks. Attacks done in UP tend to be for less damage (PS, IT, etc) and as such, the amount of uptime you must maintain increases substaintially. However, the amount of Frost Strikes you gain from using this rotation (which has an inherently higher RP generation rate), is probably enough to offset this difference to almost nothing.

Under this analysis, I can only conclude that UP is superior to BP.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Lynri

Due to the fact that it's only pertinent to Ulduar and does not cover all raid situations. Makes it so building a specific rotation/build around Ulduar only makes it Ulduar only therefore hindering in any of the other raids out or coming out (OS - EoE - Nax - Icecrown)

Unholy > Blood definitely if you're using ITx2 in second rotation ignoring the dps loss in favor of the extra FS which is a bonus if your running Sigil of Vengeful Heart. But as mentioned it basically requires Sigil of Vengeful and etc to make up for the subsequent damage loss (due to the fact that IT's damage has been reduced compared to it's pre 3.1 predecessor) A lot of people running the classic pre 3.1 rotation don't use it due to that reason. yes it's a slightly higher rp generation which makes a larger difference now with the change to 4set but it depends heavily on rotation.

The more Haste added, the less procs that occur due to PPM mechanics. So I'm not sure where you are going for this statement. PPH = (Weapon Speed) / (60 / PPM)

Leads to the previous argument. Depending on Sigil/gear you could use this to pump out ITx2 in second part of "rotation" to get more FS but if you're using OB would leave a gap in dps.

With the change to 4set yes, as it stands due to the fact that the rp will offset the damage as OB generates significantly less rp now. Small argument on Sigil use as well as damage due to Rime procs.

Quick small note, running with the extra rp from the ITx2 + FS can increase dps but it depends since running OB can as well if Rime, which wasn't added in calculations. Also AMS soaks are pretty much equivalent in both Unholy and Blood, Unholy is just able to have the chance at dumping the FS quicker by throwing it out instantly whereas Blood may need to wait until a latter rotation to throw it out there.

*edit* UA should be used in conjunction with Blood Tap as to not skew rotations. The point at where to use it depends on use of Empower Rune Weapon, specific build/rotation and other factors (raid fight situation)

 

Saabik

I've tested this multiple times before 3.1.2. Having AMS up when Flame Jets lands prevents you from gaining a debuff. The total damage of the deubff is 12,000 (2k / 1sec, 6 sec duration). It is better to let the flame jets hit, then pop AMS.

 

Melchior

Haste is not included in the calculation of the formula, it only looks at the base weapon speed. Therefore KM procs increase due to the increased number of swings at the same proc chance per swing.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

Decadance

That seems wrong, in our last Vezax fight I had one miss with Mind Freeze (my first so far in 2 heroic and 2 normal mode kills and I can't remember how many tries). I am over 8% melee hit rating but i am under the 17% spell hit rating (somewhere around 16.5% or so).
I also use a build with endless winter instead of 2 points in DC as I am normally on the duty to interrupt Vezax and I find myself to RP starved if I fight without those 2 points.

Sorry for the bad english.

 

• Darkside

Thank you for this information, I've updated the OP accordingly.

The entire purpose of these forums is to min/max for the current progression level content. At this juncture, that means determining what will work best for Ulduar and it's hard-modes. It makes no difference whatsoever if the tactics we create now will become obsolete in a few months; all matters is that they work now. Should Icecrown be released and we discover that all the damage in there is physical, the Frost spec being developed right now will become significantly less viable and we will be forced to consider other alternatives. Until that happens, we will continue to discuss creative methods of taking advantage of game mechanics in order to reach our full potential.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Lynri

If haste isn't affected (which I would stand corrected), it's still not a linear equation. 15% haste does not mean 15% more KM procs.

 

Erekose

Was just in Ulduar for the last 2 hours and while I was not able to obtain a good parse due to horrible server lag on some bosses I was able to confirm that ITx6 is definitely viable if not amazing. Was #1 on damage done for every trash pull and boss attempt unless I switched to offtank duty. Sorry for the lack of actual information in this post, and we can definitely use more data but...

IT spam is back. In raids. If this is not intended Blizz needs to fix it now before I grow too attached to it (again). I can only hope that someone else will be able to post more information to back up my (admittedly very subjective) findings.

 

Sapphidia

A very minor point - I notice most of the DK builds advocate 2/2 in runic power mastery to fill up the first tier of frost. However, I've found from dpsing that in the vast majority of cases, effective weaving of frost strike between runic cooldowns means i rarely hit 70 RP, let alone over 100. Admittedly AMS soaking can massively cap me but I find this rare, and tend to need to use runes rather than 4 FS in a row, usually for disease reapplication.

For now, I've been using 2/5 Toughness in my frost DPS builds, due to bladed armor mostly (and the very minor utility of the miniscule extra armor and so). It's hardly worth 2 talent points for such a minimal AP boost (something like 30-35 AP for 2 talent points) but it's still -some- AP, and I just don't ever feel that I need Runic Power Mastery to make effective use of frost strikes, so I consider (for my playstyle) 2/2 RPM to be a bit wasted (I see it as a PvP talent really, or for use with Gargoyle/DRW situations in other specs).

Or am I missing some awesome utility with having 130 RP max as either frost build?

 

• Darkside

If you DPS in Blood Presence with the HB glyph you may not see your RP cap out very often. However, if you're in UP (which seems like a better and better idea with each passing day), you will need the 130 RP cap to do max DPS. You should be using it anyways, as AMS soaking will, like you say, put you at the cap. Overall, for any spec, more RP is the best thing that can happen to you, since FS is going to be your main source of damage.

EDIT: I have recieved at least 1 PM from someone suggesting that [Indestructible Potion] potion be added to the consumables list as it is ~100 AP from Bladed Armor. However, I tested this potion in Dalaran and noticed no changes in AP over its entire 2 minute duration. Has anyone else seen similar effects?

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

preb99

Hey I am just wondering what is this ITx6 rotation you are talking about?

It is with the spec 20/51/0 right? Is the rotation OB OB BS BS dump, IT IT IT IT IT IT (weaving FS between the IT so you dont cap RP)?

Thank you, sorry for the dumb post but I searched it and thats what I found. I'm just trying to confirm it because when I did I quick test on the dummy the dps I got was less than lets say, 2 diseases rotation, IT PS OB BS BS dump, OB IT PS IT IT dump. Is this because I don't have the FS sigil?

 

• Darkside

I've updated the OP with this information. I hadn't realized I left it out, thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Added information about UA and Blood Tap. I don't think there are any critical Frost macros, so I'm going to omit that section for the time being.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

waffletimeyo

I would think it would be situational as to which path you take. If you have very little RP at the time it lands, using AMS would definitely be better. However, if you were close to RP cap at the time, I would be using it immediately after to absorb the dot. It will only give RP for 10k dammage, but that strikes me as being more usefull than taking the 12k and overcapping your RP and then not having any more from that AMS.

EDIT: I suppose you could dump out some RP before it lands every time you see it casting, but that may not be ideal depending on the present state of your runes.

Also, Mimiron P3...couldnt you just go chasing after a bomb bot, and maybe taunt it if its not particularly interested in you?

 

srljstr

To add to your taking advantage of AMS section, you can use AMS on Brundir during Overload for instant full RP bar. This also lets you stay on him full time and dps.

"A man is the less likely to become great the more he is dominated by reason. Few can achieve greatness-and none in art-unless they are dominated by illusion."

-Mr. Doctor

 

• Darkside

That's a bad idea for the following reasons:

• Using AMS during the initial cast will result in you losing ~20 RP from capping out.
• The gain/second from the dot is ~30 RP, so you should be able to FS on every global in nearly all circumstances
• Because the gain from the dot is spread out over 5s, you are able to theoretically grab 50 more RP from the dot than you are the initial hit.

These gains will easily offset any situation where you might use AMS just before the cast finishes.

I did some extensive testing tonight with the following results:

Blood Presence


Unholy Presence


I'm somewhat confused by the rather startling change in procs. I redid the tests twice, just to make sure it was accurate (it was). From these numbers, it appears as if UP results in a ~25% increase in KM procs, far higher than in "should" be from the 15% haste alone.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Elliae

Not sure if it's still relevant, but I believe that Bladed Armor has been changed to recalculate itself when your Strength changes, of all things. I can't find where I saw it, but it's easy enough to test.

[Edit] Just tested it then, and an [Indestructible Potion] does indeed give ~100 AP, but requires a Strength change to proc due to the interesting mechanics of Bladed Armor

 

• Darkside

Just tested this real quick to confirm and indeed it's true. I drank the potion and began swinging at a dummy. As soon as FC procced, I received 97 AP courtesy of Bladed Armor. The extra AP did NOT expire after the potion had worn off and persisted until my strength changed again.

I believe there is some possibility open for messing around with Frost Presence here to receive a free 400 AP or so, but I'm still working out the kinks.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Travex

Just tested it out and switching to Frost, changing my weapon to something else and back, and then changing back to Blood did give me an additional ~400 AP. However, I wouldn't waste the runes on it (even with Empower Runic Weapon) since the increase would be temporary and subject to falling off from Unholy Strength proccing on/off anyway.

As for the potion, it would probably be best to use it right before Unholy Strength falls off or create a weapon switching macro if you want it timed with Bloodlust/Heroism.

 

waffletimeyo

I was reading up on hodir looking for ways my guild can decrease our kill times for that fight, and it got me thinking a bit. Can IT/HB etc. proc singe off of the toasty fires? If so, a 6 IT rotation could yield some highly entertaining numbers if the boss was close to a fire.

Perhaps use cinderglacier or razorice instead of fallen crusader, and use your pot and FP swap at the start of a fight? Since the AP gain from the combination of FP and the pot is going to be fairly close to the AP gain from a crusader proc, I think this setup would yield more dps. However, I seriously doubt this was done by design, so I wouldn't get used to it.

 

Spiekerboxx

Not too change the subject here but I'm curious about the gearing we'd be looking at if we are doing the ITx6 rotation. Because right now in the BiS thread it seems like they are adding alot of armor pen items in there. I'm just curious if armor pen is actually any good of if stacking crit or some other stat over it would be a better choice at this point in time since we aren't really doing OB as much as we used too and I'm not sure if FS gains much from that with it being magic damage and all.