Frozen Blows -- Frost DPS (Updated 06.11.09) - Page 20

Valtiel · 06/29/09, 3:18 PM

It's fairly easy to understand that it's mathematically impossible for Frost 2h to stay (or well, actually become) competitive.

If Blizzard's intended approach is that of making frost's strikes work equally well with DW, then you will have a scheme like:

Strikes: 2h = DW
Spells: 2h = DW
Diseases: 2h = DW
White damage: 2h < DW

and if DW is balanced with the other speccs, 2h will be mathematically inferior.
The only solution to this would be having 2h do more strike damage than DW - which seems to be not the intention.

Anorahn · 06/29/09, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by kidpreacher

Have you done any testing on this? I did and FS is a huge nerf at the moment. It is equal in dps to OB now, in fact with Epidemic there is a larger loss in dps than without Epidemic. The wasted points in Imp Plague strike are very evident. You lose a few FS Spams with a reduced Disease duration, but OB/BS are increased in dps due to dual disease and more than make up for the fact. I have not found it to be difficult to change. And FS crits are alot more than 2 percent dps loss in 5 tests of 5 minutes each. I did not once get a 9k crit the highest I got was 5k. OB crit for 6k and BS for 4k. The spec I used was 15/55+1

I should have specified that I'm talking about a rotation I would like to use now, not for the next patch. I do not personally see it coming out for another 2 months or so, so instead of trying to figure out the best thing to do then, I'd like to figure out the best thing to do now.

Yes, the points in improved plague strikes are a bit of a waste to get to the epidemic, but without them I don't see making a heavy OB rotation work (in blood presence). As I stated earlier, if you are good with your KM procs the -4% crit should not be as big of an issue as one would seem.

Nazh · 06/29/09, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Saabik

Regarding Necrosis / BCB for dual wield

From my logs as of last night using a DW-unholy build I don't see Necrosis or BCB putting out quality damage. My evidence is from our logs of IC attempts (you can check the other bosses here, very similar results minus flame leviathan for obvious reasons).

Parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Spec: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm running 4/5 Necrosis and 3/3 BCB(BCS). Necrosis was 4.1% of my damage and BCB was 2.1% of my damage. Remember, this is with dual wielding. Necrosis has a decent point-to-damage ratio, but BCB is really lacking. I was using a 2.5 speed main hand, and in unholy presence most of the time (excluding frost pres on the little guy from IC).

Edit: On a side note, based on this information I will be dropping a point from BCB and putting it into Necrosis as it is a better investment.

Edit2: Fargom's parse shows his Necrosis at 4% and BCB at 3%, with 5/5 and 3/3 respectively. This is contrary to my data, which could be contributed to a bit of RNG. His data would suggest BCB is a more sound investment than Necrosis.

Parse: Wow Web Stats
Spec: The World of Warcraft Armory

The conclusion still being that Necrosis and BCB do not add that much to dual wielding.

Actually WOL counts BCB attacks differently for each hand. If you look again at your parse you will find 2 inputs for BcB.
The 2.1% is for your mh and also there is another 1.4% for your offhand making it a total of 3.5% of your dps which is awsome for 3 talent points.

yek366 · 07/01/09, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

It's fairly easy to understand that it's mathematically impossible for Frost 2h to stay (or well, actually become) competitive.

If Blizzard's intended approach is that of making frost's strikes work equally well with DW, then you will have a scheme like:

Strikes: 2h = DW
Spells: 2h = DW
Diseases: 2h = DW
White damage: 2h < DW

and if DW is balanced with the other speccs, 2h will be mathematically inferior.
The only solution to this would be having 2h do more strike damage than DW - which seems to be not the intention.

If the normalization coefficient for 2h is 3.3, and for 1h is 2.4, then you get more damage on DW strikes than 2h. If you add 140 AP to whatever you are doing, you get 140/14=10dps, so 33 damage. With DW, you get 140/14=10dps for MH, and half (without the talent) for OH. 10*2.4+0.5*10*2.4=36 damage. Strikes will scale better as DW than 2h, and should only have one point where their damage is equal.

Hidden · 07/01/09, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by yek366

If the normalization coefficient for 2h is 3.3, and for 1h is 2.4, then you get more damage on DW strikes than 2h. If you add 140 AP to whatever you are doing, you get 140/14=10dps, so 33 damage. With DW, you get 140/14=10dps for MH, and half (without the talent) for OH. 10*2.4+0.5*10*2.4=36 damage. Strikes will scale better as DW than 2h, and should only have one point where their damage is equal.

Including the talent it's even more than that (nearly 38 damage).
Additionally DW allows for two runeforges to be used and currently gets higher benefits from relics (and possibly base damage?). Considering the buffed/fixed RI enchant, this probably makes quite a noticable difference as well.

Hadesnear · 07/22/09, 1:04 AM

How to use addons Tell me when and Need to know?
I wanna use Frost strike when killing machine is active?
Killing machine is Buff or debuff?
I have been try 45 mins over the setting, but i still can get it : (

please help me out this : )

Rakki · 07/22/09, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Hadesnear

How to use addons Tell me when and Need to know?
I wanna use Frost strike when killing machine is active?
Killing machine is Buff or debuff?
I have been try 45 mins over the setting, but i still can get it : (

please help me out this : )

If I had to choose between tellmewhen (TMW) and needtoknow (NTK) to track Killing Machine, I personally prefer TMW because recognising an icon is easier than reading a spell name. IIRC, the ways to set them are identical, but I'll just use TMW to illustrate.

First, type /tmw or /tellmewhen to enable the configuration mode
Right-click an icon, then under "Enter the spell/buff name" key in "Killing Machine" (without the " mark, of course).
Make sure "Enable Icon" is checked.
Choose "Buff/debuff" under Type.
Choose "Buff" under the Buff or Debuff option
Choose "Player" under "Unit to Watch"
Check "Show Timer" if you like (optional)
Choose "Show" when "Present"
After that, type /tmw or /tellmewhen to enable it, and voila!

Punkin · 07/23/09, 2:40 AM

Thought I might be able to offer something by showing what i've been doing lately. I normally play Unholy in PvE, but was requested to run Frost lately. I have 4 piece T8.5, Thorim hard mode helm, Worldcarver, XT sigil, Greatness and Bandits insignia. Armory Punkn on Fenris to catch my full PvE set and such, but I am running 17/51/3 using glyphs: Howling Blast, Obliterate, Frost Strike.

My latest raids from this week include these bosses and the dps logs for the fights. Note that on Tueday night we did up through Freya (excluding mimi, thorim, hodir, iron council) and we were severely lacking core raiders = important raid buffs. My dps was very low compared to normal. Tonight was a bit better for Iron council and hodir hard modes.

Rotation is
HB > OB > BS > BS > Dump
OB > OB > OB > Dump

I use Rime procs when Frost Fever is about to expire. I try to utilize AMS as much as possible.

Razorscale

Ignis

XT (Hard Mode)

Kologarn

Auriaya

Freya

Hodir (Hard Mode)

Iron Council (Hard Mode)

Raizenyoukai · 07/23/09, 7:38 AM

I have been using blood as my pve dps spec. I have gear from t8 up to 25 uld and i just feel as though blood hasn't been doing too much for me. So thanks for posting this frost thread. Definitely going to try this out and see if this spec and rotation fits my play style more.

Bhasidire · 07/23/09, 4:52 PM

I was unholy for months, but recently, a guildmate and I tried out the 20/52/0 spec. Last night in 25m Ulduar I had EXCELLENT results using the mods and rotations posted here; chaining 12-14k natural FS crits on Ignis and Razorscale was a welcome sight.

Suggested macros and rotations, mods such as: PowerAuras, DKIRunes, DHUD2, xPerl, Bartender4 all helped to change an "ok" Dps spec to an amazing frosty deathfest.

thank you elitist jerks.

Originally Posted by Raizenyoukai

I have been using blood as my pve dps spec. I have gear from t8 up to 25 uld and i just feel as though blood hasn't been doing too much for me. So thanks for posting this frost thread. Definitely going to try this out and see if this spec and rotation fits my play style more.

I tried blood and unholy but the frost spec and mechanics here are AMAZING. Even with only an Ironsoul as my weapon and 25m naxx/10m uld gear. It's a tricky and finicky spec to play, much moreso than the DOT or strike dependent Unholy and Blood specs, respectively. But the crit bursts and chain FS crits are amazing.

Originally Posted by Hadesnear

How to use addons Tell me when and Need to know?
I wanna use Frost strike when killing machine is active?
Killing machine is Buff or debuff?
I have been try 45 mins over the setting, but i still can get it : (

please help me out this : )

Killing Machine is a buff, and the Rime buff is "Freezing Fog". I set PowerAuras to display a red aura for Rime and a White one for Killing machine, and it worked great.

thefiddle · 07/30/09, 3:57 AM

Thanks for starting this thread, i found it very useful when asked to possibly be frost for the raid buff. I usually main tank as deep blood and offspec 51/0/20 so frost dps style and also the stat preferences is new to me. I apologize if this stuff has been covered... i couldn't find it

a) I was wondering how important hit is relative to other stats. I suspect that the hit cap is still 263 but would one need more hit as HB is a spell?

Frost strike is counted as a special ability (hit % is capped at 8 assuming raid buffs), i just wanted to confirm this: i may be wrong.

b) Between weapons with the same dps, weapons with lower speed are preferable right?

c) are Frost Strike, and howling blast benefited by the 13% magic dmg debuff put on by, say, the Ebon Plague (COE)

d) is there a rough weightage to stats one would suggest (AP = 1, str = ??, agil = ??)? The weights suggest by the BIS thread seem to be in contradiction with this thread, i think. I may be mis interpreting

Thanks for the help! I am very happy with this spec and the information here: pulled some very decent dps in charity gear (off spec = / ).

Yubble · 07/30/09, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by thefiddle

Thanks for starting this thread, i found it very useful when asked to possibly be frost for the raid buff. I usually main tank as deep blood and offspec 51/0/20 so frost dps style and also the stat preferences is new to me. I apologize if this stuff has been covered... i couldn't find it

a) I was wondering how important hit is relative to other stats. I suspect that the hit cap is still 263 but would one need more hit as HB is a spell?

Frost strike is counted as a special ability (hit % is capped at 8 assuming raid buffs), i just wanted to confirm this: i may be wrong.

b) Between weapons with the same dps, weapons with lower speed are preferable right?

c) are Frost Strike, and howling blast benefited by the 13% magic dmg debuff put on by, say, the Ebon Plague (COE)

d) is there a rough weightage to stats one would suggest (AP = 1, str = ??, agil = ??)? The weights suggest by the BIS thread seem to be in contradiction with this thread, i think. I may be mis interpreting

Thanks for the help! I am very happy with this spec and the information here: pulled some very decent dps in charity gear (off spec = / ).

These questions are meant for the simple questions simple answers thread.

a) it depends, are you using an HB single disease rotation? if so, you want to gear towards spell hit without sacrificing too much strength/AP
b) Frost Strike uses melee hit, so yes, capped at 8%
c) Howling Blast is benefited by Ebon Plague, pretty sure Frost Strike isn't, but I could be wrong
d) This thread is pretty old, the BiS thread probably contains better, more up-to-date stat weights

Consider · 07/30/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Yubble

c) Howling Blast is benefited by Ebon Plague, pretty sure Frost Strike isn't, but I could be wrong

Frost Strike is. It's spell damage, after all. Similarly, Frost Strike is not benefited from Sunder.

• Darkside · 08/04/09, 1:10 PM

I'm going to update the OP in a few days with information on all the latest tricks and tips for 3.2 Frost DPS, after I've had some time to play around with the new tree and try several of the new spec ideas that are being tossed around. In the meantime, you can take a look at the DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand thread for discussions of 3.2 dual wielding.

Karnivor · 08/15/09, 6:26 PM

Any new information on 2h Frost yet? Is it able to come back and be competitive?

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/15/09, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Karnivor

Any new information on 2h Frost yet? Is it able to come back and be competitive?

No. Unless this thread gets turned into a Frost DW thread, it can be closed.

Titanian · 09/07/09, 1:54 PM

Given that Frost Strike is such a huge part of Frost's damage, at what point is is desirable to break T8's 2-piece set bonus to go full T9 (if ever)?

Feuergeist · 09/07/09, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by Titanian

Given that Frost Strike is such a huge part of Frost's damage, at what point is is desirable to break T8's 2-piece set bonus to go full T9 (if ever)?

Not anymore, with the Frost Strike nerf you should be using Awareness and Obliterate will be a much, much larger portion of your damage.