Post #143 may be of help.

The damage difference between OB OB BS BS - ITx6 and PS IT BS BS OB - OB PS IT IT IT is very hard to calculate accurately, but it's bound to be pretty minimal.

A) OBx2 BSx2 ITx6
B) OBx2 BSx2 ITx4 PSx2

The core difference here is 6 IT vs 4 IT 2 PS. The first rotation loses the Blood Plague damage. BP ticks for around 700 damage, 6 times over a 20 second period, so it's around 4200 damage. This rotation also gains some OB damage, so it's safe to assume around 5k damage.
The other rotation gains 30 RP from the difference between 2 IT and 2 PS. In essence, it does 1 more FS.

In the end, if that FS is a critical hit, the IT spamm rotation will be doing more damage. If it's not, the PS IT rotation wins out. However, the IT spamm rotation pulls way ahead on a crit (by around 6k-7k damage), while the PS IT one only gains around 1-2k damage.

Again, it's napkin maths, but you see the point. The average value for FS I see on most WoL logs is 5500 - we're talking about an average damage difference floating around 500 dmg per rotation.


As a side note to the OP, I would consider a variation on that rotation:

PS IT OB BS BS - OB OB IT IT


Running a quick calculation (flawed one since I can't access logs atm), I'll use the values from post #143:
Since you have 6 runic gcds between PS and the last OB, you risk losing the damage bonus only if you exceed 4 FS in the first part of the rotation (unlikely, and in case you can postpone a FS quite safely).

In terms of RP, you have a 15 RP loss, but 1 gcd gain - which isn't so relevant for this rotation, as the "core" rotation uses 10 gcds on runes, plus HoW, plus 6 gcds for FS and 3 spares for cooldowns/Ryme.

In terms of damage, 1 OB will pull sensibly ahead of 1 IT + 1 PS considering crit ratio. You will lose 1.5 BP ticks (1000 damage or so) and 1 FS every 40 seconds:

1 FS every 40 seconds = 5 FS every 200 seconds

3 crits + 2 hits = 3858*2+11877*3 = 43377, or 217 dps

Now BP,

1000/20 = 50 dps

So let's say 270 dps.

Now let's calculate the gain from OB.

PS and IT have on average around 30% crit chance on most parses I've checked. OB is usually very close to 70% (but most people is still using 2p7).

Anyways, let's assume 5 intervals (splitting at 33/66% chances, which favours IT PS slightly), so 5 PS 5 IT vs 5 OB over 100 seconds:

4*3183 + 6*1517 = 21834/100 = 218 dps

2*2920 + 3*7388 = 28004 = 280 dps



Conclusions:

This rotation will likely pull ahead for all people who don't have the Sigil of Vengeful Heart yet. Using 1 OB without Awareness more or less evens out with BP, so with the sigil you'll be gaining some. Once again, the core difference here is the IT glyph, which can provide for a 217 dps increase against a rotation that still uses the same glyph.



Small observation on the IT glyph:

I don't think anyone has put down some rough maths on the kind of dps increase the IT glyph provides for Frost rotation.
For the double disease rotation (4 IT) it's a 40 RP gain, so around 4 FS a minute, which means 5500*4/60 or 366 dps.
For the IT spamm build (6 IT) it's 60 RP per rotation, so 180 a minute or 6 FS, which means 5500*6/60 or 550 dps.

I encourage every one to double check maths. As a rough comparison, the FS glyph gives you an extra FS every 4, which means - before applying the IT glyph - 1 more FS every 20 seconds or 275 dps. The IT glyph will of course inflate this value by inflating the relative gain at higher RP expenditure.



Edit: a small consideration on using 5500 as the average FS damage: it's probably too low, so those numbers are actually sensibly higher.

That seems so easy to disprove, even a math-moron like myself can try to look clever:

so 2x obliterate every 20 seconds with Awareness = 672 damage

While 4xIT with frozen conscience = 444 damage.

You forgot that the sigils add into base damage; you can't just add like that. IT is affected by more multipliers: black ice (10%) and glacier rot (20%). Oblit is affected by 2h spec (4%). Unless you wear a lot of arp, you won't see the full benefit from [Sigil of Awareness].

[Sigil of the Frozen Conscience]: 111 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 146.52
[Sigil of Awareness]: 336 * 1.04 = 349.44

4xIT => additional damage of 4 * 146.52 = 586 per 20 secs (crits for 200%, affected by CoE)
2xOb => additional damage of 2 * 349.44 = 699 per 20 secs (crits for 245%, affected by armor)


As the math for Arp can be messy, I am going to leave the napkin math here for someone. My main thing is, it's actually closer than some people actually think.

If you are going with 6 IT machine gun rotation, [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] is definitely better.

IT sigil -> 111 prebuffs, ~190 with CoE, IIT, BI, and GR. Total, it adds ~761.
OB sigil -> 336 prebuffs, ~279 with 2h spec, and only 20% armor reduction (being generous). Total, it adds ~559.

Even on a naked boss, the OB sigil adds ~699 damage. It's then up to your individual crit rating with MoM.


On another note, my rotations tend to get really messed up with BT->UA since the last patch and I have to use ERW to reset it most times. What I have done instead is this rotation:

IT-PS-OB-BS-BS
OB-IT-PS-IT-UA

This way I end up using a death rune on the UA, nothing bugs out with BT, and I pop it right before I unload lots of FS. The only downside I see is that the first use tends to be when other procs have 2-3 seconds left on them, but it is fine from then on.

Except OB has a 70% crit chance whereas IT only has 50%. With Obliterate's obscene critical strike bonus, Awareness will definitely pull ahead of Frozen Conscience.

Now if this was pre-nerf where FC added 203, that might've been a difference story.

Regarding Hodir (hard mode) specifically, I tried out the ITx6 with razorice last week and we finally got our kill. The important things:

On an attempt that lasted 170 seconds, this is the damage I was able to pull with 0 storm power buffs:
7k DPS
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

On my best attempt that lasted 53 seconds (damage wise, not a kill, no lust), where I had 1 storm power buff:
11.2k DPS
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Kill shot (2:53 seconds):
9.3k DPS
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I averaged about 9k DPS throughout all attempts, so this is a pretty standard kill. Depending on when you get storm power, you can really crank out some damage using ERW with the 6x IT rotation. There are several other higher parses out there, but this should provide a good measurement.

Also, if you get a flash freeze and there aren't any snow piles in melee range, use your AMS on the freeze so you can stay in melee range - especially if you have storm power.

You forgot that I said that it is up to your personal crit chance. Let's assume 70%/50% crit ratings and 20% reduction from armor (being pretty generous).

IT -
761 * (1-0.5) + 761 * 2 *(0.5) = 1141.5

OB -
559 * (1-0.7) + 559 * 2.45 * (0.7) = 1126.385

Even with those crit ratings and an absurd amount of armor pen, IT sigil is slightly ahead. To even get a boss's armor reduction down to 20%, you would need sunders, FF, and just under 50% armor pen.

Im wondering if anyone who runs this it rotation gets scent of blood to? it seems to proc off everything i noticed while having my pvp frost build in uludar for 1 boss as we were short.

"Im wondering if anyone who runs this it rotation gets scent of blood to? it seems to proc off everything i noticed while having my pvp frost build in uludar for 1 boss as we were short."

I tested this with 1 point in Scent of Blood, using the 17/51/3 build. I logged Razor, Ignis, XT, Kologarn, Auriya, Hodir, including the trash between. On the parse its shows under Spell_Energize Scent of Blood (I assume that's when it is triggered), that it occurred a total of 25 times. Not great considering this includes the trash, and even worse is that under Spell_Aura_Applied (when you actually hit something to get the RP gain, I assume) it shows only triggering 1 time. WowLogParser concurs with this and lists Scent of Blood under "Buffs Gained" as 1 also. A surprisingly low number, and I am not sure what to make of that.

I then tested it in a duel with a hunter and a DK. It does not trigger off dots (i.e. Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Icy Touch), only off the initial direct damage. DnD does not trigger it, nor does Blood Tap (as far as I could tell). I also saw in an older patch note that it was changed so that it does not proc off of environmental damage. If anyone else tests this, I would be interested to see the results, because I thought they would be better.

So to sum it all up. For IT heavy specs only:

VH > FC > A

right?

Right. That proves my initial suspicion.
Whenever you use 4 IT or more in 20 seconds, FC outperforms Awareness.
VH will massively outperform both as frost.

Not really the most appropriate thread for this, but yes this works exceedingly well in a PvP situation

I don't know about your talent choices....Annihilation is still 3% melee crit and I do still use OB and its nice to not have it remove FF...Icy Reach is an amazing PvP talent for obvious reasons (HB groups of ppl from 30 yards away? yes please)

I've been using 15/56 Frost PvP for the past week or so and I absolutely love it for

Oh! I got onto the WMO Scoreboard again with ITx6....for Mimiron, using IT/HB/FS Glyphs.

EDIT: I said IT/HB/OB and that's my bad, I meant IT/HB/*FS*

EDIT2: Got the ITx6 video approved by warcraftmovies....http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=112367

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

Using the IT/FS rotation against Ignis on Tuesday night. I am still trying to get as close to perfecting the ITx6 as possible. According to my numbers (and if I am not reading incorrectly), it places me in the top twenty (around thirteenth, I think) in the world for Frost DKs for that fight. Again, I could be crazy, but I was very satisfied with the 6k result over an almost-four minute fight.

It seems to be working out very well, but at this point I am still debating my itemization. I think that there are a clear few fights (such as XT) where ArP-builds are going to dominate, and I think that at this point I need to find every bit of crit and/or haste that I can get, given the nature of the rotation. I would like to replace my Pyrite Infuser soon and use Bandit's Insignia again, but I can't do so without switching out for some lesser-favorable items. Our guild is presently attempting some hard modes, particularly hard-XT, so I won't have as many numbers to report for the time being, I think.

Well, looking at all these posts its seems clear that a lot of research has gone into this "IT Machine Gun" rotation.....anyone help me understand what is going on exactly (In terms of rotations and builds etc...)

Would appreciate it ^^

Download that Video and it explains the rotation quite well. Gearing should be going towards massive amounts of STR (ap in general), Crit and weapon damage.

You should read a bit the previous posts before asking, but anyways I hope these are some help.

@Erekose
I see that you use BT essentially for an additional damage rune, with that said do you ever weave in UA or do you get more mileage out of an additional IT? I suppose it would require a substantial amount of uptime for 25% strength to catch 1 IT and 2/3 FS, but just curious what you've seen from experience. I never see the UA buff in your video so I can assume that you feel that the IT and the RP from it gives you much improved mileage, but just wanted to make sure.

As far as gearing goes, are we just aiming for haste and crit once we are hit capped?

Also as far as virulence is concerned, I was concerned that losing 3% spell hit would be a big deal since I only have about 10%, this might be a noob question but is Icy Touch and Howling blast calculated under melee hit %? I looked at my logs last night and didn't see any misses/resists.

Pretty sure Erekose used UA fairly early into the video. I'd also imagine it's very easy to put into this rotation without using Blood Tap because you can just use one of the myriad death runes you get. Since you're not relying on pairs of runes to use Oblit or PS/IT, UA won't mess up the rotation.

As far as UA goes it depends on what fight you're on; sometimes I use it right off the bat with one of the 2 death runes generated by the Blood Tap, other times I'll wait. As someone else said given the amount of death runes you can pretty much put it anywhere.

EDIT: been getting a lot of PMs about the video, thanks for your comments! The music is by Shpongle (yes, they are indeed very awesome) and it is called Divine Moments of Truth.

I do understand that the rotation is not set in stone and has to be modified according to the situation, but I am still a little confused.

The OP says the rotation below should be used

OB -> OB -> BS -> BS -> DUMP
IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> DUMP


Then the video that Erekose posted;

IT, BS, OB, FS, BT, IT, FS, OB, FS

IT

FS, IT, IT, FS, FS, BS, IT, FS, IT, FS, OB, IT, FS

Is that just an opening rotation? Then into the above? Ive read all 8 pages two times and still am kind of struggling here.

I was thinking about this last night, but has anyone thought of using the Glyph of COI as a sub for Glyph of IT with the new furious glove bonus + Endless Winter?

You do lose out on 5 extra RP from IT glyph, but you now no longer ever use your KM procs ( and can use CG now effectively on every FS ) on IT. I was trying this last night, and besides the annoying giant chains that surrounds most bosses, it was very nice using my KM/CG procs 100% effectively. I haven't tested this enough yet, but my damage seems to have gone up.

Glyph of COI now crits ( i've seen anywhere from 1100-1500 crits ), so its a weaker version of IT obviously, but since I've noticed that a HUGE chunk of my total damage is from FS it seems like getting the most out of your PPMs is really good.

Jones, have you tried using power auras to help you identify when you get killing machine procs up, it plays a sound and you can have an icon pop up. It helps me save KM procs for frost strikes. Although in pvp you are spamming abilities really fast, it is sometimes tricky to not use KM on an icy touch.

I had a question, say you have all death runes, and zero runic power and only 1 killing machine proc left. What do you do? use icy touch or do you obliterate then frost strike?