You should definitely use IT, as OB won't net you enough RP if you are sitting at zero, and if you OB > Horn then you're wasting GCDs as your runes quickly pass the 3 sec rule. Another way to think of it is that if your spec revolves around RP generation (which this does) then getting the FS non-crit + RP from IT > FS Crit + OB (1 disease scaling, without glyph for me) damage. IT eating KM sucks, but sometimes you are forced to do it when you are either low on RP or on a critical section of the rotation where if you don't use IT then your get behind.

This happens at least one time maybe more in the video when my slot 6 death rune is active and my slot 1 or slot 2 Death (from blood) runes are about to refresh. KM is up, I have enough RP to FS, but I choose to IT and use the slot 6 rune so that I don't get stuck behind.

That is the thing that is most appealing to me about this rotation: high skillcap. Unholy is faceroll, Blood's rotation is pretty much set in stone but this is *always* different and you can get phenomenal returns if you play it smart. This also means that if you fuck it up that it is harder to recover but hey, play like a champion amirite?

@Wizkhalifa - The OP rotation is imo not optimal for ITx6. The second rotation is debatable and the exact order of the first is debatable as well, but you DEFINITELY lead off with IT. After that you do the following, though not necessarily in this order:

Use 2 OB so that your next refresh is filled with Death runes
Use BS *once* then use BT for 2x Death runes in the Blood slots
Insert a FS in between OBs if possible to set up proper rune refresh pairs for ITx2 FSx2

At least that's how I see it. Another thing to keep in mind that I don't think I've seen here yet: KM'd HBs destroy Ulduar. We did a bunch of pulls on Freya +2 and +1 last night and this was especially obvious...The Golden Rule of Frost is usually KM up? use FS but in AoE situations KM'd HB just destroys. This is very simple and most of you (I hope) have been doing this since day 1 but I figured I'd mention it.

For AoE situation, would you sit in BP to take advantage of 15% more HB damage? Or would you stay in UP?
FS spam is probably less dominant in aoe situation.

The only time I switch to BP is during certain arena situations these days, otherwise I'm in UP and DPSing or in FP praying that I don't die. I can see BP pulling ahead if you absolutely 100% know when you are going to AoE and can set up a nasty IT Pest DND BT Deathchill/FS HB combo of doom. However, that requires an extra rune in order to switch presences.

Another implication of ITx6 is the ability to chain a bunch of CRAZY bloodboils after a regular rotation...in UP with HB glyph and using BB I was pulling ~12k DPS on lasher packs in Freya's room and coming out of a Detonating Lasher phase with 9-10k on Freya. This is especially nice considering that otherwise those death runes are going to IT which eats KM...if you BB then you can use KM on your next HB even if its still 3-4 GCDs away...especially beneficial during situations where you can use AMS to soak to full. IT spam is primarily used for RP; other attacks do far more damage, so if you can use those attacks yet somehow gain RP equivalent to the IT one then you've just netted yourself a significant DPS increase.

On a side note, does anyone else experience abnormal RP gain sometimes when AoEing with either HB or BB? It appears at times to generate RP as if it was a single attack used on multiple enemies instantly, for instance I'll BB and gain like 60-70 RP, it happened on Freya multiple times last night when spamming BB...I capped near-instantly after being relatively low on RP. I cannot reproduce it and do not know the mechanic nor have any proof that it actually exists outside of my own mind at this point (though I know when I pop AMS, we don't run Revitalize or Disc-Revitalize). Am I just crazy?

Did you maybe AMS during a pack death and get RP from the explosions? Just a thought.

Why are you using HB instead of OB for glyphs when you don't use HB over OB unless it's a rime proc, it's a dps loss without a doubt.

I noted that in my post. I *expect* to get capped during an AMS soak, particularly during those Detonating Lasher packs. Otherwise I stay relatively low on RP and certainly not capped.

I guess I should have clarified, it's a DPS loss in single target, but I wasn't thinking of the fact that 75%+ of the fights in Ulduar have an AoE component.

Just to update this with an ITx6 compairson from tonight. WoL link: Deconstructor - ITx6 rotation. There are differences between the two fights, today's fight was a shorter duration, and since last week I've had a sidegrade in helm change (previous was the Sarth +2D helm)

Biggest change, and to follow on from a discussion a few posts back, our Druids picked up Revitalize due to gear changes and have been keeping rejuv's on me whenever possible. Gained 128 runic power on Decon alone (4 extra Fstrikes)

But for those who are better over the number crunching, this is about as close to giving two near identical logs as I could get to compare/contrast rotations with.

So correct me if I am wrong.
--Single Target DPS--
Always start with IT
BS should always be followed by an BT(if not on CD and no death in blood slots)
OB>FS>OB>FS to *TRY* to make the CD have that 3-5 flow you show in the video?

I do understand that nothing is set in stone, but my goal(correct if wrong) is basically to never have my runes stacking and sitting around.

Now am I inserting the FS inbetween the OBs to make spacing for the PAIRS for ITx2 and FSx2?
I dont know if i am understanding wrong, but why do I need pairs to use ITx2 & FSx2?

Thanks for the responses Erekose, you have extreme knowledge.

The reason for pairing is just so that you can chunk your FS and IT separately whenever possible and still maintain rune use that doesn't allow runes to pass the 3 sec rule. Grouping the abilities in this manner as opposed to ITx6 FSx4 allows you to use your RP as you get it, weave FS in on KM procs when possible, etc. If you use IT 5-6 in a row I can guarantee you are going to eat at least one KM proc then you have to spam FS because you're capped on RP...and your runes are all going to refresh at the same time meaning that you are again going to run into a situation where you have to spam IT and then FS again afterwards.

Overall you just decrease the chance of losing FS due to RP overflow and indirectly increase the critical strike rate of your FS with prover weaving.

Yes, I have conceded that it is a DPS loss in those few fights where you are only doing single target

EDIT: I just Howling Blasted and got 50 RP from it. Why. I used Deathchill and hit a bunch of mobs for a lot of damage, will test again with Deathchill on the next pull and see if I can replicate.

EDIT2: Just Deathchill HB'd another pack and went from 15-81.

I use SCT + debuff filter for all of this stuff, I even have a "FINISH HIM" sound for things like KM/CG :P Thats not always the problem when I brought this up, I actually can keep track of my KM/CG very well from arena.

As for your question, it depends on how much time on your FF. There are plenty of times where FF is just about to drop and Im forced to use IT to reapply FF ( this is with either FF or CG ). If I have plenty of time on my FF then obviously I'll obliterate until I have enough RP to FS. Another situation is KM/CG procing literally half a second before I IT, and its unavoidable sometimes.

Thats why I brought up the furious PvP gloves, because it completely removes this issue. Its a stat loss compared to 8.5 gloves ( mainly hit ) + dmg loss when compared to IT, but at the same time every KM/CG proc will go into your FS, and considering most frost DKs end up somewhere close to 50% of their damage with FS I can see it working well as long as you arent breaking the 2pc 8.5 bonus. Overall though, its still possible to just COI with EW whenever you get in a sticky situation, and IT when you know procs arent up.

This could all be avoided if Blizz just removed IT from KM :[ Its so unneeded now.

HB always been an OP'd way to top the AoE charts with DCh and KM procs. The amount of RP you generate allows you to use FS's until you need to BS or when you have HB up. Highest I've ever done with HB on 11 mobs was an accumulative hit of 143.4k. Freya, Thorim arena, and Auriaya are the best fights to take advantage of this. Time it right, with KM, DCh, and HB so you hit the most targets possible with all crits with just 2 runes and gain LOADS of RP to blow the boss over with FS's.

Freya-Wait for add spawns and use on the roots during hard mode.

Auriaya- Use on guardian swarm, the guardians at the beginning, and the add that pops up during the fight (Usually will hit 1-3k more than a FS on crits, so use KM on it even though it's just 2 targets)

Thorim-Time it so when the commoners come you have your blood runes, HB, and KM/DCh up so you can hit all of the targets with a crit and Blood Boils.

FS and HB will usually end up being on the same par of damage percent, except on Thorim, considering FS will do the sum of damage when HB isn't up and when it's not on a crit proc.

The reason you're seeing a huge jump in RP is that you're getting chill of the grave for each target. Its been like that for a long time, probably one of those hard to fix bugs.

It's also a fairly pointless to fix bug - in any aoe situation, you will be following the accused HB with 2 BB, which leaves you with spare GCDs for a couple of FS tops before having refreshes on HB/BB or OB to procc HB again. In aoe situations you likely get RP capped or close to anyways.

I've been playing a DK for sometime now (ever since they were in beta) for the longest time I was DW frost. Now I use a 2 hander and provide the haste buff for the raid. Can you guys do me a huge favor if you get some time. I need to know what I am doing wrong as frost. I'm not coming anywhere close to what you good people are posting for numbers.
The rotation as it sits goes like this.

IT BS(with BT) OBLIT OBLIT (runic dump FS).

Then I do ITx5 then FS until its time to do said rotation again. Now I know that DK's that follow a set in stone rotation fall behind in DPS so I am always looking out for KM procs and free HB's. I have my 4 piece 8.5 and people are telling me that the frost spec is lacking due to unholy/blood specs being superior. Erekose, I have read your posts and also Koots posts and tried a few things out on the dummys but something isnt adding up in raids. I dont post on the wow forums much ( too much QQ's for me) so I usually read here especially because I love my DK.

Thank you all for any and all input that you give im always here reading this is the first time I've asked for help.

The Shadow

I am trying 17/51/3 now, still at a very low gear level. Following Kroots rotation, I often find myself doing auto-attacking for 2/3 seconds after HB>BS>BS>OB. Am I to inpatient? Also, im seeing a difference from around 300 dps more when im in BP. Is it better to spec 20/51/0 at a low gear level?

HB use to be buggy where you would sometimes get 15 RP then + 5 for ever target beyond the 1st because of CotG. Might still be doing it. I don't know why it would work with BB, because I don't recall there being an ability that gives +RP for BB.

See my ITx6 video for a more in depth explanation Arioch ITx6 Machine Gun Rotation By Erekose of the priority system but I see a couple things that are hurting your DPS:

1) Even though the nickname for the build is ITx6 if you end up doing ITx5-6 in a row then you're doing it wrong. Proper chunking of rune/RP abilities leads to a smoother flow and better use of KM. Sometimes you inevitably fuck it up (me included, all the time) and end up having all your runes refresh at the same time but you can get back to a semblance of your original rotation by using two runes, using two FS, repeat.

2) Gemming....you are ignoring the beneficial properties of your Prismatic JC gems. Move them into Neck, Pants, and Boots to get the Str bonuses.

3) Weapon is a little lacking in comparison to what you have access to but I'm sure you know that.

Now, as for the HB issue with extra RP I do believe that the COTG bug explains it...pretty sure its been around since Beta but only activates in 4+ mob scenarios for me at least. Has this been mentioned somewhere on the EJ forums but hasn't been discussed much? would like to see it mentioned in the OP as it benefits Frost immensely at times (make sure to dump RP before blowing HB on a bazillion lashers, etc)

Anyone know the calculations behind rune strike? Sometimes I get hit by mobs and rune strike procs, is it better to save that RP for frost strikes or should I make a macro that uses it with my oblits/frost strikes? Does it come out to be more dmg per RP than frost strike?

I have a macro for pvp that does this and it's pretty nice burst, a crit rune strike followed up by a frost strike, but I haven't done the calculations, maybe its better to save it for frost strikes only.

I personally have Rune Strike macro'd into every single one of my spells and strikes so if I get a proc it gets used automatically without me having to pay attention to it. This will only happen in a raid when:

1) You are offtanking in which case, you should definitely use it for threat
2) You pull aggro and are lucky enough to dodge/parryt. Exceedingly rare, but possible...probably best to not RS here but if you have it macro'd then its probably going to go off anyways. If you're not dead, that is.
3) You are AoEing and pull aggro on a little add which gives you the proc...again, probably not a bad thing to RS here

The only times when you would definitely not want to RS are on Single Target DPS fights where you need all the RP you can muster for FS...however this is a scenario where you are least likely to get a RS proc.

My advice is to macro it into everything and just forget that it even exists.

I would like to point out to most people ( if this hasn't been talked about before ). But Power Infusion reduces Frost Strike to 24 RP.

So if you can find yourself a priest to give you PI everytime, that would be pretty nice :]

Speaking of which, I think I just found out something extremely overpowered for frost lol.

Power Infusion to a melee dps is poor advice. It should always be given to a caster dps (or atleast a healer) because of the 20% haste they get... it shouldn't go on a melee dps in any sort of progression situation where mages and warlocks are either running out of mana or have downtime in between DPSing to regain mana.