Kadorzun

Dinged 80 today, bought 2 reapers and test both 0/13/58 and 0/17/54. 0/13/58 outerformed it by quite a margin (unless I played it terribly wrong). Pulled 2100 dps overall in Nexus HC without proper buffs (no MotW, Kings etc). Seems to do quite well.

ITT: Seems DW Unholy is somewhat viable after all in blues/greens. I'll report some raids soon I hope.


EDIT: Yeah, i know..overall isnt really a good check. I should do Patch to see a proper single target report on my dps, I can hit 2k on the dummies (dont hit me!)

 

thecaveman666

Out of curiosity for the 50/0/21 blood build, does that use UH presence to make somewhat more effective use of the HS cd's, or does it still stick with blood presence? I've had bad luck personally with blood builds and all the heart strikes, having too many runes up in BP.

 

Fauh

Excuse me if I don't understand your logic. However it seems to me like you say that you have too MANY runes in BP? I assume that you mean that you don't have the GCD's to use all the runes? I can't really see that happening. Lets assume 1.5 sec GCD and 10 sec rune refresh and 6 runes. That is 9 seconds assuming you use 1 ability per rune. ( The case where you have HS-HS-HS-HS-HS-HS )

To me it seems that you SHOULD have almost a whole GCD extra per 6 runes. Now take into perspective that the HSx6 rotaion only happens after a IT-PS-DS/OB-HS-HS which only uses 5 GCD's instead of six you now get amost 3 "extra" GCD's that you can use for RP-Dumping.

Now we can safely assume that you have atleast SOME haste which would net you with atleast one more GCD total.

I think that using UP would just leave you with alot of deadtime and leave you with doing 15% less damage. However if using BP makes your runes pass the 3-seconds-rule you should change to UP (Or revise your rotation.)

 

Octopi

Could you guys please stop discussing DW Blood in this thread? Its really cluttering up the thread.

Feel free to pour some time into developing a DW Blood build(I for one would love to see one that actually performs close to DW UNholy, so far that has not surfaced) and create a new thread.

 

Goregasim

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You do IT/PS/BS or BB/DC you gain 40 RP from that rotation run so you can keep that up
You have 3 diseases on the target with CF so BCB does 40%+27.5 30% of the time
Killing Machine with a 20% frost/unholy bonus from runewep often and should be able to crit IT every rotation as well get +20% dmg to DC
You still get a strong ghoul who attacks 20% faster and 25% faster if you use a UH rune

HC/Desecration/MF enable you a lot of control you could glyph for HC to make it free as well
If you needed OaPH and more Toughness you could drop necrosis for PVP

Don't know what the DPS bonus of necrosis really is at 80 with a 2.6/1.5 wep or 1.5/1.5 having 5% base haste 20% from IT and 15% UH aura + whatever haste rating you have.


Only thing I dislike is I would love EP but I figured HC was worth more.

 

Varius41

Goregasim, Your build suffers from quite a few things (all of which have been covered and with reason in this thread or the previous one);

Hungering cold? Absolutely useless for PVE.

No Dirge or CotG means lackluster RP generation.

No bone shield, no Wandering plague, no Rage of Rivendare, and no Gargoyle, no unholy blight.

Basically, you traded 5% haste, Hungering Cold, and a slightly stronger icy touch for a very large number of powerful damage increasing talents. You also skipped out on RPM for toughness, which is another wasted couple of talent points.

 

grimLox

@ Kyruski : I am a little confused as to why you have Bandit as BiS trinket and was hoping you might be able to elaborate a bit on it as I was under the impression that FotFF was BiS until you obtained Blood of the Old God or Dark Matter.

I am of course speaking of the 0/13/58 build.

I realize that you mentioned on the OP that it is "slightly" better through the sim but what I'm really looking for is some math/proof. I had Bandit's at one point and found it was only good for the flat 190 AP boost as it has a 45 sec ICD on the Arcane Strike(?) if I remember correctly.

From my understanding Mirror gives a static 250 AP , which should put Blood of the Old at around 275(guesstimate) AP, FotFF is 320 and then of course Dark Matter with a flat 222.

 

Kyruski

These are estimated BiS. Of course there could be better BiS depending on your Latency, Play style, etc... But the Proc seems to scale a little better than before from what I understood. FotFF is sometimes trivial if you have to move out of the way for a while. Take Mimiron, You have to take a while to build up to the 20 stacks multiple times. One build up for p1, p2, a couple for p3, and then p4. With Bandit's Insignia, that's a constant 190 AP plus the Proc is quite nice. It also scales somewhat well with BP+Bone Armor+ EP, etc... It still depends on your play style. I, for one, will probably try to pick up both. But if you want some very rough math, I'll repost something I did in the previous thread. Remember, this is a very rough estimate.

 

Kaitliac

I'll probably do that in a bit... I really wanted someone other than myself to be looking over things before starting a new thread on it, and this seemed the most appropriate thread to do that in at the time (slightly a "omg u failed kait!" issue, I thought all the previous DW threads were closed and missed the older general one being open still due to my forum settings)

The "basic" unholy DW spec focuses to a high degree on RP gen and dumping, as well as diseases, making it *less* weapon reliant than some other specs and 2hd (which counts on strikes making up a significant portion of damage output even with RP dumping). As such it shouldn't be a terrible entry level spec so long as you're hit capped for DC, and especially in circumstances where you have solid access to str/ap gear but are lacking in other stats like crit or haste.

It's not quite the situation the old HB/Unholy DW was in (which WAS regrettably overpowered in terms of scaling regardless of weapons being used), where practically all of your damage was spell based, but it's not terrible either as a poor weapon availability spec. What I've been trying to determine for the past couple weeks on and off is the best high end scaling build, but I think that's probably the best low end scaling build, especially if you have stacked str/AP but are low on crit/haste/armor pen and other ancillary stats (excepting hit). You can probably even function adequately with low expertise. You would have to run a sim to see if your current gear with that spec could perform better with a two hander, however. My own assumption would be yes, but I'm possibly wrong.

 

Syrellia

Please delete this post. *edited to make it shorter* Sorry for posting.

 

Sulchwihantoki

Question at what point is 0/13/58 a better spec for dps then the 0/17/54 build? Also is there a point as to why you would put in 2 points into epidemic vs putting those 2 points into morbidity or is it because the diseases dont last long enough for the cycle of runes used to optimize damage.

 

Syrellia

I do not know at which point yet, I guess the simming data only gave me an estimation therefore I'm going to test it out. The bonus from Sigil of Vengeful Heart is massive and 0/17/54 is firing Death Coil like mad (it's their uber dps source), therefore it will give the spec a massive boost at first. I guess as gears scale up, the difference is made up for hence it will surely go neck-and-neck with one another. 2 playstyles pan out to be a lot different from one another, hence it's difficult to make any direct comparison.

Both of them use quite similar stats (Except 0/17/54 doesn't need that much expertise, and weapon dps but I consider weapon dps to be "static" because they can't get that much better after reaching a limit), hence you can interchange your specs to see which one will go better with your current gears, both in Sims and in real raid.

2 points in Epidemic is a must for 0/13/58 because your rotation will go perfectly with that:
PS - IT - SS - RP
SS - SS - SS - HoW + RP
repeat. If you use 0 point in epidemic you will have to refresh your diseases everytime you refresh your runes, resulting in loss of SS damages, 1 GCD in trade of PS, IT damages and 5 RP (if 4xt7) or 10 RP (don't have that bonus). I don't think it's worth a trade because SS does a lot of damages in addition the extra GCD you get can be put in good use. Ofcourse I could be wrong, if you go deeper in rotation calculating, you MIGHT be able to find a perfected rotation which pulls more dps without having Epidemic (I doubt it). I would like to keep my rotation clean and simple and go with what I believe :P

 

Teme

EDIT: wrong thread, posting on other DW thread. Delete please.

 

madvillan31

I hope I didn't miss the thread anywhere, I checked the other post about dw unholy and didn't see it, but for some people haven't had the chance to get fully into Uld, what would you recommend the best DW weapon set up be for 13/58 or 17/54..... I am using Angry Dead n Widows Fury as of now both with FC/FC...but I have hatestrike, x2 Max's Fermur, Silent Crusader, Split Great Hammer, and another Widows Fury..... I have been browsing diff. peoples armory and such to see there set up ,but mostly have ULD weps...so if anyone could help some of us who haven't had the chance to progress far would be a big help.

 

Doomers

I would equip [Split Greathammer] in OH if I were you - it would help you get expertise cap.

 

Manveru

Agreed. Use the Hammer. You might want to change it to Hailstorm if you get it though.

EDIT: Only if you need that HIT.

 

Tigga

I posted this in another thread and overlooked this one.


Edit: Sorry for the double post.

 

Novusordo

Its entirely personal preference, and to me, UB is just one of those talents you can't pass up. When I get some more T8 and the XT sigil to switch from 0/13/58 to 0/17/54, I'll be moving 1 point from desecration up to UB. However it should never take the place of DC in a single target rotation.

 

Kyruski

Actually, For 0/17/54, UB is a DPS Loss. The reason is because DC Hits so hard and it's our main dump. Do not take UB in 0/17/54 unless you want it for Trash/AoE.

 

Tigga

What about the fact that probably 70% of all Bosses in Ulduar has AOE parts?

 

Fargom

I would have to disagree, for the opportunity cost of a single point in desecration unholy blight is absolutely worth taking. You are correct that it shouldn't be used in place of a death coil for single target fights, however, with the number of boss fights that require AOE damage in Ulduar it would be a mistake to skip such a fantastic source of AOE damage.

Hodir - Damage to every frozen target.
Thorim - Arena and hallway both have AOE situations.
Freya - The adds get increased health with each extra elder, this is the best fight for UB by far.
Mimeron - If you are going for hardmode, extra aoe damage is the way to go.

Yogg- Absolutely fantastic for this fight, phase 2/3 you will almost always be hitting multiple targets with UB.

I guess it boils down to personal preference, but if you really look at each of the hard mode encounters I just can't see skipping UB.

I would highly suggest changing the spec in the OP to include UB.

 

Kyruski

The thing is most builds tend to focus on Single target imo. And if that were so, why not find a better AoE DW Build if there possibly is one for the OP. I'm not saying that I can't change the build in an OP, I just think we should decide if We're going to try and look for an AoE-type build or if we should just change the points.

Also with Thorim hard, Most guilds don't have trouble with the Arena or Hallway when they're attempting it. It's the actual fight against Thorim that's hard, and UB Doesn't really help there. I know it may help in the arena/hallway but if you're already doing fine in the Arena/Hallway, then taking that damage away from Thorim is somewhat bad imo. I can see the usefulness in Freya, but with Hodir, I'm kind of split. I see it can be useful if you get a clump right by Hodir, But if you do a run with no Freezes landing by Hodir, You lost some damage from the points elsewhere. With Yogg, I believe that even though UB can help a little bit in Phase 2, I think overall, not taking it would be better because you want to focus on the Brain and the time where UB Might not be hitting anything would outweigh it's usefulness. Now on P3, it might be a little help with doing damage to Yogg and possibly 2 Adds. Remember, these are just my opinions.

 

Fargom

I think the main reasoning behind taking it is that the opportunity cost is very low. Of course I agree with you that we should focus on single target and that all of our builds should reflect this. However, just comparing what we can gain throughout the uldur full clear with UB VS 1% on desecration it really seems silly to skip UB.

As for Yogg, I was thinking about in the illusion getting to hit multiple tenticles at a time with UB, the main goal is the stun the topside tenticles as soon as possible and UB helps as each of the three brain rooms have mobs close together enough to hit them with UB.

Overall, this is a small concern, but at this point our builds are pretty well set, we have our BIS lists (Thanks to you,) so we may as well spend time fine tuning. Perhaps we should just mention in the OP that UB at the cost of 1 point in Desecration is a personal preference, and doesn't make or break the build.

 

Tigga

I don't mean that you switch one point from Desecration to UB. You only have 3 points in desecration.
The point comes from Chill of the Grave, there you only miss 2.5 RP.
The 17/54 build, where you generate RP like hell, my opinion is to switch these points and you don't loose much damage.

 

Fargom

Honestly, that is a terrible idea. Chill of the grave is most certainly higher dps per point than desecration, this spec is about generating RP, and multiple times during the rotation you have just enough RP to cast two deathcoils.

The reason you can take UB is the opportunity cost of dropping one point in desecration is low, you should never skip any points in a talent that helps you generate RP like COTG does. Hell, its the whole reason we are so deep in frost and the whole reason 0/17/54 exists.

If your logic is that COTG is less dps per point than Desecration, why not just skip the other point in it and go to 4/5 desecration? The answer is that its not, so you shouldn't ever drop a point in COTG as this spec.

I think the UB issue is done, it can be summed up as a personal preference to drop 1% from desecration for the added AOE utility. The end result is a very small difference, and doesn't impact the final result to a degree that calls for this much scrutiny.