Kyruski

Alright, Changed the OP to include the preference/guild needs for UB.

But Tigga, If you are trying to go off the idea that you might not need the RP because you might run over the RP Cap, then you aren't following a Priority and are doing it wrong. If you are going off It not being worth the DPS, Every 18 seconds, it gives ~.375 DCs which is about 1.25 extra DCs a minute. Now if that 1% in Desecration is worth more than 1.25 DCs over a minute, then sure, drop the point/s in CotG and put them in UB and Desecration, otherwise, drop the Point from Desecration and put it in UB.

 

Sapphyx

Kyruski, I'd like to point out that [Crazed Construct Ring] is actually BiS in lieu of [Bladebearer's Signet] for the 13/58 build for humans because of the mace/sword specialization. This is pre-heroic hard mode.

Edit: Dark Matter is BiS for both 13/58 builds. I haven't run the numbers for 17/54 yet.

 

Tigga

You're right. It wasn't completly elaborated.

 

Themallet

I just picked up dual wield the other day, and I have to say, I've been having a lot of fun and the DPS seems competitive but instead of FC/FC has anyone else ran tests with FC / cinderglacier? the proc rate seems a bit low but with the high uptime on FC anyways since the change it seems like cinderglacier on the offhand helps bring scourge strike damage up to near 2h levels, with my bad dual wield weapons (Torment of the banished main hand) im getting 8.4-9k scourge strikes self buffed alone with cinderglacier procced. any thoughts?

 

cosmicmuffet

The thoughts last time someone mentioned it are that, when you use the CG procs for the right kinds of strikes as often as you can, it works great. When they go off on an IT or a PS or Necrosis (I forget if this was verified to be happening or not), then it wasn't. In any case, FC buffs everything you do, including blood boils, UB, and dnd for when you're fighting hordes of whatever happens to be on hand, whereas CG is only useful against a single target.

I think the argument was that FC/FC was more reliable, and potentially had a higher damage cap in benefit because of what it does for your aoe. Against a single target, you may be able to work CG to do more damage.

however, just getting a big number once isn't really the point. It would have to be a really big number to make up for not buffing your dots, your ghoul, your aoe, and the sturdy enamel on your healthy shiny teeth (so that you can smile with confidence).

 

Sapphyx

Starfall Girdle is significantly better than [Belt of the Titans].

Dark Matter is an upgrade to [Bandit's Insignia].


As of right now, the BiS list doesn't contain any Algalon loot. Seeing as how Algalon is still fairly far off for most guilds, but that his loot should definitely be considered for BiS, I suggest modifying the table to include a couple more columns (if space provides) to also include Algalon loot.

 

Kyruski

Alright, I'll update the OP. I knew about the Dark Matter but forgot about it when making a BiS gear selection, but I didn't know about the Starfall Girdle. I think I am going to now consider Alg10 part of Hardmode 25 gear. If you have any objections, please state them in a PM.

 

Whatevr

So between the three builds suggested in the OP is it just a matter of playstyle for which will excel the most or is the suggested highest dps build going to be 13/58. No parses have been posted for either of the two others so that would help a bit to see where those fare.

 

Alatyr

I've got some parses from 0/17/54 that I did tonight. We were working Steelbreaker Hard-Mode, so about a six minute fight, one Heroism, used AotD most attempts. Using [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience], as I've not gotten the XT Sigil yet. These aren't the bosses posted for comparison in the OP, but I hope to have a couple to submit there after tomorrow's raid. I'd also note that my spec isn't the standard 17/54 spec, but I've found AMZ to be useful, and Desecration causes us some problems on fights like Hodir or Mimiron, so I've given it up.

My highest parse for the night was 5204, linked here. You can view some other pulls for the evening, but I was still getting used to the rotation early on and I was tanking Brundir for the last few attempts.

If my parses for XT and Ignis aren't awful next week with this spec, I'll post them. 17/54 is certainly viable, likely moreso with Vengeful Heart, but it'll be a bit longer to see if it contends with 13/58.

 

Ruphio

I've been reading through the forum and I've notcied a few things. All of you are close to Ulduar gear set. I've recently picked up the 0/13/58 spec so I can dual wield. I think its fun but I barely have any decent gear except the BoE I can buy at the AH. What would you suggest would be a good set of gear to get my dps up.

 

svedka

Was anymore research done on Berserking being viable in unholy dw?

DW Unholy DPS Discussion

 

Octopi

Your best option is to begin trying to get your tier 7 pieces asap. Naxx 10 and 25 are pugged often enough to find a group. Other than the raiding options(VoA, Naxx, Uld, EoE, OS) some heroic loot are great to start with such as Staggering Legplates from Heroic UK, and the Death Inured boots from Ebon Hold exalted reputation.

You will find significant weapon upgrades in both 10 and 25 man Naxx as well. Start pugging as often as you can.

It is not a bad option to begin to familiarize yourself with the DW playstyle even without the gear "required" to make it work, it takes a bit of time to adjust to, and the more familiar you are with it, the better your results will be when you do have ideal gearing.

Use the stat weights to determine upgrades, keep your hit rating in mind, haste is always good, weapon DPS is very important with speed not being a huge deal.


I have run both builds through Uld 25, I had originally been 0/13/58 but have recently changed to a 0/17/54 Variant with no UB. I have fairly ideal gear for both set(both Sigils, 232 Weapons Slow/Fast etc)

I have been doing my best DPS as 0/17/54. Not sure why as it gains no real benefit from the T8 *4 pc* bonus and that has been the only thing changing with my gear lately moving between specs, I think it pertains more to the mobility of the spec(Single rune burn downs require little to no set up and you can swap targets very easily and almost always have a pile of RP to play with, and the Sigil makes DC a huge nuke).

If I had a tank that could hold aggro for Hard Mode Hodir(I happen to PuG Ulduar and do not do guild runs) I was peaking at around 11-12k last night during our Hard Mode Hodir attempts before getting insta-gibbed by Hodir on an aggro pull) but it was the tanks first time tanking Hodir and it was hard to go "all out" without pulling threat.

I came in fairly good standing on XT normal mode 25, at 7100 dps. This was about average for all the classes present. No light bomb damage, no adds. Just heart and XT. ImageShack

I could definitely improve upon this result, this was the first night of 25 man content for me as 0/17/54

 

Syrellia

I have done quite a few tests on 0/13/58 and found that the uptime of FC is very unreliable. Sometimes it goes up to 75% but sometimes it stays on 40%. For more reliable dps it's best to go for FC/FC on this spec.

I am currently doing 0/17/54 Unholy Presence testing. Due to the 15% extra haste it might be more reliable FC-uptime wise, but I am not certain yet.

Berserking on offhand always yield 35% uptime.

My data does not reflect the real viability of that choice. With more decent gears, combination of haste, hit and expertise will push the reliability of FC uptime on main hand much further. For now if you don't want the hassle I reckon you should use FC/FC because even if my theory was true, FC/Berserking is only a minor dps upgrade.

 

Kyruski

Wrong. 0/17/54 gains usually 20-25% of it's damage from DC. 2pT8 raises the Crit rate of DC by 8%. That is a clear gain with T8. That should be around 8% more (Somewhat crude number, no real math behind it) of DC damage, if not more. If you want to think of it simply, That's 8% chance to do double damage. This is without any crit modifiers like in the Hodir Fight.

 

Octopi

I was speaking more on the 4pc bonus, as its having little to no effect on your dps output as 0/17/54 pushing single rune abilities to fuel RP dumps, I definitely believe that the 2 pc is beneficial as it effects your main nuke.

I should have been more precise in my earlier post.

 

Edwardino

There are a few builds that I've been hoping to test, however I don't have a DK at 80 (yet). For the sake of discussion, I'd like to throw this on the table:

Using this as a base:

0/25/33

Is it possible to revive Icy Touch spam as a viable way to deal damage?

There are two avenues from here:

0/25/46 & 10/25/36

Rotation Would Be: (Diseases BP/FF) >> DC > IT > BS > Ghoul Frenzy > PS

Where might I obtain a gear spreadsheet for pre-raiding dual wielding? I understand that one shouldn't seriously consider dual wielding unless raid loot is plentiful, however, there are those of us who find it too fun to resist. Until then, I'll dream of Thunderfury as my offhand. (Which, if you think about it, wouldn't be half bad!)

 

Ruphio

See this is where things get hazy for me because out of all the things i've been reading that you need 2 fast weapons to make DW possible I'm currently DW [Avool's Sword of Jin] with FC on both. About the pugs I've been having a hard time with that b/c my server must be the only server of WoW that no one pugs anything anymore so I've been falling short on gear. But I do like the input I get and I'm hit capped as of the moment b/c of my professions but thats whats making my dps hurt.

 

Octopi

You may be reading some dated information, I know there is loads of that on this site and others. Speed is not particularly critical for DW Unholy builds, weapon DPS and Stat allocation are more important.

You can see pretty clear evidence of this by reading the Armory of he active posters in the DW community and reading threads such as this in its entirety.

 

Ruphio

You're about right. I've been back and forth trying find a good DW build. So what weapons would you say I should replace mine w/? I'm trying to pick up as many pugs as i can.

 

Manveru

@Octopi

So basically, 0/17/54 doesn't get "outgrown" with gear upgrades (like it was previously stated), but scales with it instead becoming better than 0/13/58 in the long run?

 

Octopi

Its very hard to say for me at present, but my gear has progressed and upon switching to 0/17/54 I found my DPS was much easier to maintain and I was parsing higher with much better fluidity to my RP gen and Burst potential(which are hand in hand, and critical in Ulduar fights). I also put up my best parses as 0/17/54, a lot of this is due to reading what Fargom has been producing, and checking out how he has begun gearing himself. I also ran 0/13/58 with the old tier7 bonus of 10 additional RP generated for SS, and played it afterwards where I felt like I was really starving for RP. I have done all the glyph combos(UB vs SS vs DD) and once I specced to 0/17/54 the entire rotation and playstyle just seemed to gel better and produce better results.

I also run a build a bit different than Fargom, as I do not really feel the need to use UB, its decent for AoE, but its not something I see a lot of use of without using the glyph(not possible really with 0/17/54 you need DD+Ghoul+IT glyphs) Maybe I can play with it some more and see some value in UB, this was afterall my first week as this build.

I come from previously running a 0/32/39 variant back when that was the build to use for high damage, and that playstyle felt more face paced than the SS DW builds that are being used. 0/17/54 feels more like the old HB+IT spam builds that were so fun to play.

I used 0/13/58 with pretty much the exact same gear I have now minus a couple upgrades(Mainly moving from t8 to t8.5) that were not very different outside of a few stats difference.

I think the "scales better" was more of a guess when this OP was written because no one had Ulduar gearing and the assumption was that Scourge Strike will end up getting some effect from the Tier set bonus and therefore outpace 0/17/54?? this is just a guess on my part as there is no detail on why the OP felt that 0/17/54 would scale worse than 0/13/58 my only assumption is the set bonus effecting Scourge strike and the high DPS MH's which are slow in speed found all through Ulduar, but I am finding, in my personal experience, that 0/17/54 is not really bothered by the lack of use of the tier bonus and weapon speed does not matter at all really.


I would try your best to grab any one hander regardless of speed that is a dps upgrade, go to Wowhead: The Original and look over the one handed weapons sections that apply to DK(Maces, Swords, Axes) and plan accordingly. Your best upgrades will come from Naxx 25, start with something like Angry Dread, Split Greathammer, Widow's Fury, Silent Crusader, Hailstorm(EoE) or best possible in slot till Ulduar Last Laughs.

You will find some upgrades in the ten man versions as well such as Maexxnas Femur, Hatestrike, Toment of the Banished, Sword of Jin(BoE). These will work well to help you progress. DW Jin's is not terrible, and should not hamper you too greatly until you get some naxx 25 one handers

 

Kelavis

I agree with your assessment in the similarity of 17/54 to 32/39. I had been running 10/61 since starting Ulduar and switched to 17/54 for yesterday's run and it was great. Sadly, on XT I blew up my own ghouls with searing light as I was casting AotD and bloated my damage by quite a bit but I still put out 6300 dps. I definitely felt like I played subpar and was much more comfortable by the end of the night. I look forward to trying to improve next week.

 

Kyruski

Updated the BiS Hardmode gear in the OP with the new Sabatons of Lifeless Night and a new Parse for 0/17/54.

In regards to the Scaling issue of 0/17/54 vs. 0/13/58. I remember doing sims with the two, and 0/13/58 starting about 50-100dps ahead of 0/17/54. When I did BiS for the two (Old BiS, not updated), 0/17/54 was edging out about 50dps ahead of 0/13/58. Now this might have changed with the changes to BiS but the build seem to scale VERY similarly.

 

Octopi

Yeah, I think the attributes that do not typically show up in sims such as movement requirements, target swaps and adjustments favor 0/17/54 a bit more. Just personal observation tho.

Those boots...ooooo very nice.

 

Orlgin

Just look at the stat weights and notice the differences:

0/17/54 is barely better with Strength: +9
0/13/58 is much better with Agility: +34
0/17/54 is better with Hit: +15
0/17/54 is barely better with Crit: +4
0/17/54 is barely better with Haste: +4
0/13/58 is much better with Expertise until capped: +46
0/13/58 is amazingly better with weapon DPS : +422

This is from the front page of this OP. 0/13/58 gets a lot better with better weapons, so much so that a weapon upgrade eclipses any bonuses that 0/17/54 will get from any stat bonuses. It wasn't a guess. Scaling was discussed a lot in the previous thread.

You are correct though that there are other differences that a simulator won't pick up that do favor 0/17/54 such as the extra run speed, more runic power available if you get stuck at range, and it seems that people like the way it plays better.

The reason why BiS would improve for 0/17/54 is pretty simple: the best weapons were known early but the best gear (which slightly favors 0/17/54) wasn't. So you were using the same weapons but getting more Strength, Hit, Crit, and Haste. When the next BiS weapon comes up, 0/13/58 jumps in DPS. As I mentioned in previous OP, 0/17/54 starts better. 0/13/58 hasn't caught up yet but it will soon.

If you have questions like that, PM me and I'll answer you when I have time.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.