Kyruski

The thing that you have to remember, and am not doubting you remember, is that this is based on Estimated Equivalency Points of AP. So One build could gain more out of AP than the other, and that build might seem behind the other build in a stat, but since it gains more out of AP, It actually gains more out of the other stat.

If I recall correctly, I did check the DPS gain from AP and other stats between the two and they were almost identical with how much was gained, some stats were better in one build than the other though. I think it was something like 0/13/58 1dps for one amount of AP while 0/17/54 got .94 or .97 or something for the same amount AP, DPS increase that is. DO NOT take these as facts, these are just what I remember. Do the Sims yourself. Just want to make it clear though.

 

BraveDemon

Kryuski,

Just wanted to point out that with the buffs to the Ulduar 10 HM loot, that Void Sabre is likely to be the BiS offhand until Sorthalis.

And thanks for the great work, I've stayed DW since 3.1 launched because of your and Orlgin's work. 13/58 performs extremely well and I'll pm you my DPS (my guild's WWS) for a few fights.

Last night I also got the t8.5 shoulders completing my four set bonus, I'll try to run some tests/parses with the four set bonus as I'm sure it's somewhat of a DPS boost.

 

Kyruski

Actually, Sorthalis is still BiS for OH. Mainly for the Strength that it gives and the Expertise for both 0/17/54 and 0/13/58. Strength is somewhat close to 2x or 2.2x the EPAP of the other stats, so you could potentially have 50str vs 50crit, 50haste and the 50str would still come out ahead by a little bit.

 

Sapphyx

Actually, he's saying BEFORE Sorthalis. But it's still incorrect, unless he's planning on swapping out a ton of gear to work in Void Sabre.

For 17/54 AND 13/58, the stat weight comparison show's that Remorse/Stonerender is still better.

 

Kyruski

Ohhh, I must have misread that statement. Then you are correct, [Void Sabre] is actually better than [Stonerender] and [Remorse] for both 0/13/58 and 0/17/54 pre-Heroic Hardmode. I'll change the OP right now.

Sapphyx, When you do the calculations for the stat weights of each, do you include the 16str + the 4agi from the Socket and socket bonus into your calculations? If not, that could be why you don't see them ahead.

 

Sapphyx

Crap, I did skip the socket. I tallied the increase in weapon dps and the actual stats. Completely forgot the socket.

 

Kyruski

Okay, no worries.

On another note, I will be dropping 1/18/52 from the OP if there is no evidence/contribution to show that it is able to compete with 0/17/54 or 0/13/58. This dropping will most likely happen a week or two from now. So if anyone has any parses, math, data, anything proving it is able to compete, let it be know.

Also [Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers] is actually the BiS MH for 0/17/54 but only barely edging out [Caress of Insanity]

 

Syrellia

Just a question: How is [Furious Gladiator's Longblade] compared to [Caress of Insanity] in 0/13/58 main hand? Being 10 dps higher and all. Some people might be able to achieve 2350 arena rating while raiding so I just thought it would be an option for them as well.

 

Kyruski

The thing is they (and by "they", I mean all 3 of the 1H Arena weapons since they all have the same stats) were BiS until [Caress of Insanity] got the iLvl buff. If you want a simple way to look at a lot of current items by just inputting stat weights, either use Wowhead, Loot Rank for WotLK, or use Zerack's Excel Doc found at the top of the OP of the Optimal gearing: the BiS thread.

 

Ruphio

Hey has anyone been having problems with their cool downs. I use a macro that pretty much just spams the rotation and there are times where I find myself having to wait for one of my runes to cool down to continue on. It might be me but what rotation would you use for 0/13/58

 

Skellum

I asked a question, where is the proof of 2H DPS being lower then DW or even equal with DW. And basically thats what the post holds true to. Looking at WMO and other DPS sources shows the top ends of a 2H DPS spec being around 2k DPS higher then the top posts you have from DW. All of this is true. Now please explain why DW is higher DPS then 2H and provide proof, or please stop misleading people.

My Name Is Skellum, And I wear a Silly Hat.

 

Kyruski

I don't think any of the dedicated theorycrafters in this thread have said that DW is higher DPS than 2H. Hell, I'll admit that I do believe that DW is lower DPS than 2H, but this is an outlet for people that do not want to be a 2H DPS DK. I do believe DW can be competitive top some extent though. There are some fights better for some specs and some fights better for others. The thing is I don't know of many top guilds that have DW DKs. They're able to have the better gear and faster kills meaning more DPS, So you in turn see some of the Parses from those people at the top. Also, not every DW or 2H DK is shown on there. There are quite a few guilds that don't submit parses.

 

Tigga

I thought a lot of an FS build with the same RP generation like 17/54 and this is the result.

With FS glyph and raidbuffs this build will probably doing his job well. Any thoughts?

 

Syrellia

I'd just like to say that, like stated, there was no one showing proof to decimate 2H DPS. I have been working on proof to show that DW DPS could be on par with 2H, and it has been incomplete because I have got other commitment at the moment (view this thread entirely to see the mathematical comparison between 2H SS 0/10/61 spec vs. DW SS 0/13/58. DW comes about 300 dps behind 2H, and it is the biggest source of DPS that 2H could overwhelm DW, some other source of dps like melee strikes, Necrosis, BCB DW could gain advantage over, hence it could be a little bit equal.)

I am currently trialing for a dps spot at a #70ish EU guild, and they've been astonished about how much DPS I am able to do with my dual wielding spec and less-than-decent gearings (like 3/4 from tier 7 raid and I am already doing hard modes). It is not to say that my dps is the top of the top, but at least it's average-ish, and it is never 2000 dps behind the top 2H DK who has close to full tier 8 gearings. If it was that low, I'd been either kicked out of guild or asked to switch into a 2H spec by now. The DPS difference despite the gearings difference is about 500 - 1000 dps depending on 2H specs he use and the fights (He uses all 3 specs with versatility. He switches between them for each fight we do). I believe that with more decent gearings the dps difference could be overcome and it would bring me at least on par with him. And if you say that he doesn't know what to do... we couldn't have got that far without him. He's no doubt the best DK of the realm.

DW DPS does not have to be "explicitly better" to prove a playstyle. It only has to be "on par", meaning equal or slightly less than its 2H counterpart in order to have it as a true playstyle. There is nothing wrong with us being on this forum to spread our knowledge, discussions, calculations and theories. There are tons of DKs who fancy the style of dual wielding and are waiting for its revival. They just don't know where to start and don't know how to try it.

If you find 100 parses of 2H DKs DPS and, equal 100 parses of DW DK DPS with decent gearings / are in decent guilds, then you may be able to conclude that 2H > DW if DW DPS comes out short. If you find 1000 2H DK DPS parses and 1 DW parse showing that, it does not prove anything. But if you find 1 DW parse which shows DW DPS has its own place in DPS-ing, then it proves that DW is doing pretty well (ofcourse with no dps gimmick like TotT or the like). It's just logical, and is common sense too.

 

Kelavis

I was definitely skeptical about DW and trying to compare to top 2H parses that are skewed by kill times didn't help. The good thing about DW Unholy is the gearset is similar enough to 2H Unholy that I could just try it out. I find the spec more enjoyable and I set a personal best for a few fights. Could it be spec, my playstyle or was I doing 2H wrong? Maybe my gear at this point fits DW just a little better, I'm not sure but I intend to go back and forth between DW and 2H. I will continue to stay informed on both threads and play what I perform best at. If they stay close enough then I prefer DW, 17/54 plays close to my rogue that I raided on for 2 years.

WTB unnerfed 32/39 back, can't even imagine the kind of damage we could pull with that spec in Ulduar gear.

 

Flippers

Sorry for if I misunderstood the concept of the ss-less DW UH build but what would be its primary damage dealing ability?
Also, I am currently running 2H unholy 0/10/61 with BoH and SoA and would gladly give DW a shot again, but more or less what should be able to acquire in terms of weapons in order to compete with what I have right now?

 

Themallet

One thing I did notice is that [Furious Gladiator's Handaxe], has a lower bottom end than [Furious Gladiator's Longblade] and therefore a higher top end, wouldn't that bump it above [Caress of Insanity] for the BiS main hand for 13 / 58? or would the haste and expertise on caress still put it ahead?

 

Sapphyx

You're basically taking ~40 stam, ~30 crit, and ~35 resilience and a minute amount of weapon dps giving up 25 haste, ~35 expertise, ~40 Agil, and ~20 AP. Stam and resilience are straight dead stats, so we're left with 30 crit and 10 dps versus 25 haste, ~35 expertise, ~40 agil, and ~20 AP. I'll stick with Caress.

 

Themallet

While I agree with you on the matter of the extra AP and expertise on caress Sapphyx, the the melee crit gained from either may be about equal but the crit rating is superior to the agility because it affects spell crit as well as melee.

whereas

(these quotes are from the DK section in the think tank)

Also 32.79 haste rating is 1% melee haste, caress has 25 haste rating, it seems like the loss of less than 1% haste is more than made up for by not only the higher dps AND top end but also a 2.6 speed as opposed to 2.7 as 1% haste is a lot less than 0.1 weapon speed.

all these things seem to make the handaxe better even though it does have some dead stats on it (assuming expertise cap w/o the human racial).

Although to be honest, as I'm using [Razorscale Talon] at the moment, I'd be happy with either weapon :P

Those are my thoughts on it, does anyone else have some input?

 

Kyruski

Exp is the second highest EPAP stat behind Strength for 0/13/58 (excluding weapon dps). It's a difference of 9.8dps+29crit for the PvP vs. 10ap+40agi+25haste+34exp+.1slower weapon speed+8AP(From the Socket bonus, I'm speculating that you won't go for the socket with the PvP). Let's exclude the .1 slow weapon speed since the Stat weights of weapon speed are a little harder to determine as of now. That comes out to 10368.4+3393 vs. 1000+3520+3000+5576+800, aka 13761.4 vs. 13896. Caress comes out ahead without including that .1 slower weapon speed.

 

Themallet

thanks for clearing that up Kyruski

I just noticed though that the [Furious Gladiator's Truncheon] has the same top end as the axe, it seems like the sword is the only one with the lower top end, which is odd seeing how usually the only difference with the pvp weapons is the graphic, but as I'm expertise capped (with my racials) and I currently don't have weapons with expertise on them otherwise [Razorscale Talon] and [Stonerender] do you think it would be worth it to get the Truncheon over Caress assuming I can keep my expertise cap with other pieces of gear?

 

alfred1982

Hello, i come here to speak with expert of Death knight. I'm playing at the moment Blood (51/0/20) But i'm always a fan of dual weapon and i have a question. What is the best template for dual when i make Ulduar 25 without Hard mod. 0/13/58 or 0/17/54. Else i have test my blood template with dual weapon and the DPS is correct.

 

Velisella

Seems like blizzard hasn't completely given up on DW DPS for Dks.

From the shaman Q&A...
Seems like a bit of a long shot, but if blizz is willing to gimp enhancement shaman itemization for DW Dks, you might still have hope.

 

Themallet

I've been wondering, I really like dual wielding but I'm not enjoying the SS playstyle as much as I used to, is 17/54 only viable with [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]? or would [Sigil of the Wild Buck] be a reasonable substitute (although obviously nowhere near as good)? seeing as we've been clearing deconstructor since ulduar launched and have yet to see a single VH sigil drop...

 

Devil Warrior

I would say that [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] is a decent substitute until you could get the VH sigil, but still no where near as good.