Kyruski

OP Updated to deal with the Patch notes release. Please read it before posting.

Orlgin: Something's just not hitting right with your Sims. I don't know what it is either. What glyphs are you using? Do you possibly have any extra/missing points in either build?

 

Orlgin

0/13/58

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Talents>
<Subversion>0</Subversion>
<Butchery>0</Butchery>
<BladedArmor>0</BladedArmor>
<ScentOfBlood>0</ScentOfBlood>
<Weapspec>0</Weapspec>
<Darkconv>0</Darkconv>
<DRM>0</DRM>
<BloodyStrikes>0</BloodyStrikes>
<Vot3W>0</Vot3W>
<BloodyVengeance>0</BloodyVengeance>
<AbominationMight>0</AbominationMight>
<Hysteria>0</Hysteria>
<ImprovedDeathStrike>0</ImprovedDeathStrike>
<SuddenDoom>0</SuddenDoom>
<MightofMograine>0</MightofMograine>
<BloodGorged>0</BloodGorged>
<DRW>0</DRW>

<RPM>2</RPM>
<ImprovedIcyTouch>3</ImprovedIcyTouch>
<Toughness>0</Toughness>
<BlackIce>5</BlackIce>
<NervesofColdSteel>3</NervesofColdSteel>
<Annihilation>0</Annihilation>
<KillingMachine>0</KillingMachine>
<ChillOfTheGrave>0</ChillOfTheGrave>
<GlacierRot>0</GlacierRot>
<Deathchill>0</Deathchill>
<ImprovedIcyTalons>0</ImprovedIcyTalons>
<MercilessCombat>0</MercilessCombat>
<Rime>0</Rime>
<BloodoftheNorth>0</BloodoftheNorth>
<UnbreakableArmor>0</UnbreakableArmor>
<GuileOfGorefiend>0</GuileOfGorefiend>
<TundraStalker>0</TundraStalker><HowlingBlast>0</HowlingBlast>

<ViciousStrikes>2</ViciousStrikes>
<Virulence>3</Virulence>
<Epidemic>2</Epidemic>
<Morbidity>1</Morbidity>
<RavenousDead>3</RavenousDead>
<Outbreak>3</Outbreak>
<Necrosis>5</Necrosis>
<NightoftheDead>2</NightoftheDead>
<BloodCakedBlade>3</BloodCakedBlade>
<UnholyBlight>1</UnholyBlight>
<Impurity>5</Impurity>
<Dirge>2</Dirge>
<Reaping>3</Reaping>
<MasterOfGhouls>1</MasterOfGhouls>
<ImprovedUnholyPresence>0</ImprovedUnholyPresence>
<Desecration>5</Desecration>
<CryptFever>3</CryptFever>
<BoneShield>1</BoneShield>

<WanderingPlague>3</WanderingPlague>
<EbonPlaguebringer>3</EbonPlaguebringer>
<RageofRivendare>5</RageofRivendare>
<SummonGargoyle>1</SummonGargoyle>
<GhoulFrenzy>0</GhoulFrenzy>
<Glyphs>
<BloodStrike>0</BloodStrike>
<DarkDeath>1</DarkDeath>
<DeathStrike>0</DeathStrike>
<FrostStrike>0</FrostStrike>
<HowlingBlast>0</HowlingBlast>
<IcyTouch>0</IcyTouch>
<Obliterate>0</Obliterate>
<PlagueStrike>0</PlagueStrike>
<ScourgeStrike>0</ScourgeStrike>
<UnholyBlight>1</UnholyBlight>
<Ghoul>1</Ghoul>
<DeathandDecay>0</DeathandDecay>
<DRW>0</DRW>
<Disease>0</Disease>
<RuneStrike>0</RuneStrike>
</Glyphs>
</Talents>


<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Priority>
<BloodTap></BloodTap>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<ScourgeStrike></ScourgeStrike>
<UnholyBlight></UnholyBlight>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>
<GhoulFrenzy></GhoulFrenzy>
<IcyTouch></IcyTouch>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
</Priority>

------0/18/53--------
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Talents>
<Subversion>0</Subversion>
<Butchery>0</Butchery>
<BladedArmor>0</BladedArmor>
<ScentOfBlood>0</ScentOfBlood>
<Weapspec>0</Weapspec>
<Darkconv>0</Darkconv>
<DRM>0</DRM>
<BloodyStrikes>0</BloodyStrikes>
<Vot3W>0</Vot3W>
<BloodyVengeance>0</BloodyVengeance>
<AbominationMight>0</AbominationMight>
<Hysteria>0</Hysteria>
<ImprovedDeathStrike>0</ImprovedDeathStrike>
<SuddenDoom>0</SuddenDoom>
<MightofMograine>0</MightofMograine>
<BloodGorged>0</BloodGorged>
<DRW>0</DRW>

<RPM>2</RPM>
<ImprovedIcyTouch>3</ImprovedIcyTouch>
<Toughness>0</Toughness>
<BlackIce>5</BlackIce>
<NervesofColdSteel>3</NervesofColdSteel>
<Annihilation>2</Annihilation>
<KillingMachine>0</KillingMachine>
<ChillOfTheGrave>2</ChillOfTheGrave>
<GlacierRot>0</GlacierRot>
<Deathchill>0</Deathchill>
<ImprovedIcyTalons>0</ImprovedIcyTalons>
<MercilessCombat>0</MercilessCombat>
<Rime>0</Rime>
<BloodoftheNorth>0</BloodoftheNorth>
<UnbreakableArmor>0</UnbreakableArmor>
<GuileOfGorefiend>0</GuileOfGorefiend>
<TundraStalker>0</TundraStalker><HowlingBlast>0</HowlingBlast>

<ViciousStrikes>2</ViciousStrikes>
<Virulence>3</Virulence>
<Epidemic>0</Epidemic>
<Morbidity>3</Morbidity>
<RavenousDead>3</RavenousDead>
<Outbreak>0</Outbreak>
<Necrosis>5</Necrosis>
<NightoftheDead>2</NightoftheDead>
<BloodCakedBlade>3</BloodCakedBlade>
<UnholyBlight>0</UnholyBlight>
<Impurity>5</Impurity>
<Dirge>2</Dirge>
<Reaping>3</Reaping>
<MasterOfGhouls>1</MasterOfGhouls>
<ImprovedUnholyPresence>0</ImprovedUnholyPresence>
<Desecration>5</Desecration>
<CryptFever>3</CryptFever>
<BoneShield>1</BoneShield>

<WanderingPlague>3</WanderingPlague>
<EbonPlaguebringer>3</EbonPlaguebringer>
<RageofRivendare>5</RageofRivendare>
<SummonGargoyle>1</SummonGargoyle>
<GhoulFrenzy>0</GhoulFrenzy>
<Glyphs>
<BloodStrike>0</BloodStrike>
<DarkDeath>1</DarkDeath>
<DeathStrike>0</DeathStrike>
<FrostStrike>0</FrostStrike>
<HowlingBlast>0</HowlingBlast>
<IcyTouch>1</IcyTouch>
<Obliterate>0</Obliterate>
<PlagueStrike>0</PlagueStrike>
<ScourgeStrike>0</ScourgeStrike>
<UnholyBlight>0</UnholyBlight>
<Ghoul>1</Ghoul>
<DeathandDecay>0</DeathandDecay>
<DRW>0</DRW>
<Disease>0</Disease>
<RuneStrike>0</RuneStrike>
</Glyphs>
</Talents>

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Priority>
<BloodTap></BloodTap>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<Obliterate></Obliterate>
<UnholyBlight></UnholyBlight>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>
<GhoulFrenzy></GhoulFrenzy>
<IcyTouch></IcyTouch>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
</Priority>


That's my setups right there. I see no errors whatsoever. I was careful to ensure that there were no errors. Are you sure you are using the correct setup? I am using FC/FC for weapons. Ghoul double dip haste is true. 200 ms latency. Blood Presence.

Are you using the latest version of the simulator?

I think you are using a different priority set. If that is the case and you are getting higher DPS for your setup, I'll change it to match.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Kyruski

Orlgin, Try taking Icy Touch out of your Priority. It's most likely wasting some Frosts on IT and then having Unholy Runes rot a little.

 

Orlgin

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Priority>
<BloodTap></BloodTap>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<ScourgeStrike></ScourgeStrike>
<UnholyBlight></UnholyBlight>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>
</Priority>

produced this:

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Scourge Strike 321548679 14 68635 51 45 2 4684
Plague Strike 33764452 1 17657 52 45 2 1912
Icy Touch 43012497 1 17796 67 32 0 2416
Blood Strike 56082999 2 30837 58 39 2 1818
Death Coil 192978464 8 35640 58 41 0 5414
UB 89855778 4 298850 100 0 0 300
Frost Fever 97098818 4 108922 100 0 0 891
Blood Plague 97388985 4 109117 100 0 0 892
Necrosis 122913968 5 433536 100 0 0 283
Blood Caked Blade 77733536 3 127066 97 0 2 611
Wandering Plague 70157085 3 78645 100 0 0 892
Main Hand 357789670 16 155063 42 40 17 2307
Off Hand 201074050 9 278473 42 40 17 722
Ghoul 255834203 11 365972 80 12 6 699
Gargoyle 145108352 6 51725 84 12 2 2805
DPS 6007
Total Damage 2162341536 in 100 h
Threat Per Second 3962
Generated in 658s
Template :01358.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Templates\01358.x ml)
Priority :SSTest.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Priority\SSTest. xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

It did more DPS when Icy Touch was in the lineup.

If anyone has a better priority for either 0/13/58 or 0/18/53, I'd like to know it. I have limited time and been running a whole lot of simulations lately confirming my results.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Kyruski

You moved BS ahead of SS in the Priority so there's no use in having reaping if you do that since the death runes will be used on BS. Try using this rotation:

I tried it with and without Blood Tap at the top of the priority and it proved more DPS without Blood Tap in the priority by about 60DPS. This doesn't mean you should use BT in your priority in-game, It just means the sim doens't know how to handle a little wait to produce more DPS out of BT for 0/13/58. It will usually just spend it on BS and it won't usually do BS>BT>SS since I doubt it registers the ability to turn 1 Death rune that's on cooldown and 1 Blood rune that's up into 2 Death Runes. Now on the otherhand, the Sim does have a DPS gain with Blood Tap in the priority for 0/18/53, though it's only about 20DPS or so.

 

Orlgin

I got 6125 DPS when I tried your priority which is the best so far.

I tried various combinations and all the points in Morbidity went away. I put two in Epidemic and one in Unholy Blight. Vengeful Heart suffered as a result so I tried Awareness and paired it with the Obliterate glyph. That worked a lot better. Switching the priority to Kyruski's substituting Obliterate for Scourge Strike led to this:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9947

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<character>
<stat>
<Strength>1500</Strength>
<Agility>200</Agility>
<Intel>43</Intel>
<Armor>13778</Armor>
<AttackPower>400</AttackPower>
<HitRating>300</HitRating>
<CritRating>800</CritRating>
<HasteRating>450</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>100</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>91</ExpertiseRating>
</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>178.9</dps>
<speed>2.7</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>178.7</dps>
<speed>1.5</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>1</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>1</T84PDPS>
<T72PTNK>0</T72PTNK>
<T74PTNK>0</T74PTNK>
<T82PTNK>0</T82PTNK>
<T84PTNK>0</T84PTNK>
</Set>
<ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>1</ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>
</character>

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 3408609722 15 687253 54 42 2 4959
Plague Strike 259779844 1 174370 49 48 2 1489
Icy Touch 419729172 1 173204 66 33 0 2423
Blood Strike 639602627 2 342964 55 42 2 1864
Death Coil 1739763027 7 423316 58 41 0 4109
UB 875589488 3 2912640 100 0 0 300
Frost Fever 988554994 4 1108568 100 0 0 891
Blood Plague 988894863 4 1108107 100 0 0 892
Necrosis 1262413419 5 4332835 100 0 0 291
Blood Caked Blade 772312765 3 1266768 97 0 2 609
Wandering Plague 815170840 3 913736 100 0 0 892
Main Hand 3677349002 16 1550300 39 43 17 2372
Off Hand 2062702101 9 2782535 39 43 17 741
Ghoul 2557207872 11 3658090 80 12 6 699
Gargoyle 1479327586 6 527536 84 12 2 2804
DPS 6096
Total Damage 21947007322 in 1000 h
Threat Per Second 4016
Generated in 2214s
Template :4pcT8Desecration.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Templa tes\4pcT8Desecration.xml)
Priority :Ben011852.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Priority\Ben0 11852.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 306
EP :Agility = 81
EP :HitRating = 121
EP :CritRating = 118
EP :HasteRating = 133
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 142
EP :ExpertiseRating = 187
EP :WeaponDPS = 1090

where 50 AP = 35 DPS

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Kyruski

Alright, I'm just giving far warning about this so no one is shocked. Once the Talent trees for 3.2 are released, this will still be a place a place for DW Unholy DPS for live, but most likely it will start to convert to theorycrating for 3.2 DW Frost DPS (and possibly Blood/Unholy DW DPS if it works). Once 3.2 comes around, It will most likely become a DW Frost DPS Thread. The reason why I am doing this is the other Dual Wield Thread does not have an OP that is kept up to date. For now, there should still be no theorycrafting/discussion about 3.2 in this thread until some talent trees are revealed.

 

Dash

Why not simply make a new thread to avoid the enormous amount of clutter that would ensue by converting this old thread?

 

OriginalMemnock

I agree that a new thread should be created, to avoid clutter. The 3.2 DW change is likely to re-write the book on how DK's dual wield.

 

Orlgin

Using stats for suitable for 0/18/53:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<character>
<stat>
<Strength>1500</Strength>
<Agility>200</Agility>
<Intel>43</Intel>
<Armor>13778</Armor>
<AttackPower>400</AttackPower>
<HitRating>300</HitRating>
<CritRating>700</CritRating>
<HasteRating>250</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>350</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>141</ExpertiseRating>
</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>178.9</dps>
<speed>2.7</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>178.7</dps>
<speed>1.5</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>1</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>1</T84PDPS>
<T72PTNK>0</T72PTNK>
<T74PTNK>0</T74PTNK>
<T82PTNK>0</T82PTNK>
<T84PTNK>0</T84PTNK>
</Set>
<ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>1</ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>
</character>

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 365823203 16 69624 57 41 0 5254
Plague Strike 28032086 1 17603 51 47 0 1592
Icy Touch 41598039 1 17517 69 30 0 2374
Blood Strike 68535870 3 34787 58 40 0 1970
Death Coil 175315282 7 43440 60 39 0 4035
UB 85737333 3 285260 100 0 0 300
Frost Fever 98139700 4 110122 100 0 0 891
Blood Plague 98131275 4 110055 100 0 0 891
Necrosis 127298988 5 417059 100 0 0 305
Blood Caked Blade 81562506 3 124059 99 0 0 657
Wandering Plague 77532007 3 86959 100 0 0 891
Main Hand 370322617 16 149101 42 41 15 2483
Off Hand 208173980 9 267958 42 41 15 776
Ghoul 246791347 11 353060 80 12 6 699
Gargoyle 142837394 6 50882 84 12 2 2807
DPS 6155
Total Damage 2215831627 in 100 h
Threat Per Second 4095
Generated in 586s
Template :4pcT8Desecration.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Templa tes\4pcT8Desecration.xml)
Priority :Ben011852.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Priority\Ben0 11852.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

-----Converting 50 crit to 50 Expertise to more optimize the statline for 0/13/58-----

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<character>
<stat>
<Strength>1500</Strength>
<Agility>200</Agility>
<Intel>43</Intel>
<Armor>13778</Armor>
<AttackPower>400</AttackPower>
<HitRating>300</HitRating>
<CritRating>750</CritRating>
<HasteRating>450</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>100</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>141</ExpertiseRating>
</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>178.9</dps>
<speed>2.7</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>178.7</dps>
<speed>1.5</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>1</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>1</T84PDPS>
<T72PTNK>0</T72PTNK>
<T74PTNK>0</T74PTNK>
<T82PTNK>0</T82PTNK>
<T84PTNK>0</T84PTNK>
</Set>
<ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>1</ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>
</character>

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Scourge Strike 382613364 17 70106 54 44 1 5457
Plague Strike 33484526 1 17639 53 45 0 1898
Icy Touch 42445370 1 17590 67 32 0 2413
Blood Strike 63512816 2 35049 59 39 0 1812
Death Coil 159134309 7 37262 60 39 0 4270
UB 90460128 4 300593 100 0 0 300
Frost Fever 98395089 4 110207 100 0 0 892
Blood Plague 98409366 4 110198 100 0 0 893
Necrosis 123654565 5 441731 100 0 0 279
Blood Caked Blade 80212543 3 131124 99 0 0 611
Wandering Plague 74708271 3 83657 100 0 0 893
Main Hand 360179540 16 158156 44 39 15 2277
Off Hand 202040226 9 283575 44 39 15 712
Ghoul 255905188 11 365740 80 12 6 699
Gargoyle 146120937 6 52062 84 12 2 2806
DPS 6142
Total Damage 2211276238 in 100 h
Threat Per Second 4070
Generated in 624s
Template :01358.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Templates\01358.x ml)
Priority :SSTest.xml(c:\Users\Ben\Downloads\DKSimulator0.8.4\DKSimulator0.8.4\Priority\SSTest. xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

As you can see, as stats get more optimized, 0/18/53 pulls ahead. Some of the posters here already have better stats than these so you can expect their individual DPS to be higher.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Kyruski

Orlgin, one thing you have to think about is with the gear that you're getting your ArP from, 0/13/58 could be bgetting more crucial stats for it's build that could potentially boost it higher. But this is a nice change to see with the 0/18/53 build, seems to be what you've been trying to do all along.

 

ahri

I was thinking about the same as it didn't drop even once for us too. I think I'll try with [Furious Gladiator's Sigil of Strife] instead, did some paper math and it turned out a bit better than IT Sigil. Can anyone run the simulator or something for that?

 

Orlgin

Here is a gear list for 0/18/53

[Conqueror's Darkruned Helmet]
[Frigid Strength of Hodir]
[Conqueror's Darkruned Shoulderplates]
[Drape of the Faceless General]
[Conqueror's Darkruned Battleplate]
[Armbands of Bedlam]
[Conqueror's Darkruned Gauntlets]
[Belt of Colossal Rage]
[Plated Leggings of Ruination]
[Melancholy Sabatons]
[Seal of the Betrayed King]
[Strength of the Automaton]
[Blood of the Old God]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
[Caress of Insanity]
[Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers]

Put two Dragon's Eye in Leggings, one in Seal of the Betrayed King, and the rest are all +16 str gems. Based on Human with the hit aura (+1% Hit) present. I put Spell Hit capped and 4 pc T8 as priorities.

******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 326
EP :Agility = 106
EP :HitRating = 106
EP :CritRating = 146
EP :HasteRating = 216
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 183
EP :ExpertiseRating = 143
EP :WeaponDPS = 1133

DPS 6761
Total Damage 24340329526 in 1000 h

EP Stat AttackPower
DPS 6791
Total Damage 24447386469 in 1000 h

With this data, we can calculate the build's viability in the long run.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Syrellia

@ Orlgin: Before trying out 0/18/53, I'd like to state a few things:

#1: I want to have both Morbidity & Endless Winter to maximize AoE damages + guaranteed free interrupts, for the demanding fights like Vezax HM & Freya HM where I am usually assigned to interrupt, also Mimiron HM where AoE is invaluable. Hence I'm thinking of pulling those 5 points from Desecration which is highly unreliable for those moving fight. So this brings me to the next point:

#2: With Morbidity, will Sigil of Vengeful Heart and Glyph of Icy Touch instead of Glyph of Obliterate pull forward? The rotation (not priority-based) could go like this: (I know PS before IT is better but the difference is minimal and IT can usually be executed earlier due to range)

IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > UB > DC (1)
OB > IT > IT > OB > DC > DC (2)

That's theoretical. The part (1) has 7 moves, 3 of which are spells so if we can reduce those spells' GCD to lower than 1.3s with haste / spell haste buff then it's executable. In part (2) we get slack GCD sometimes for HoW & extra DC because there are only 6 moves, and 4 of which are spells.

Obliterate is used only for the sake of using up Unholy Rune and reduce the use of GCD in order to produce more DC, yet still output decent damage. In practical, things like Bone Shield can be used in place of an OB, and use IT to produce the same amount of RP (glyphed) in fights where Bone Shield wears off easily. There could be a potential of using Ghoul Frenzy as well because there are fights where it's needed (Mimiron HM, fires everywhere). Death Runes are used up on ITx2 to produce more RP for DC.

#3: With the new build (sorry if this has been mentioned), how much ArP / Haste are required to begin with the spec?

Please give me some advice. I'd like to try this build because with 0/13/58 it's impossible to reach Endless Winter, and I'd like to step out of 0/17/54 because that spec proves to be weaker AoE-wise (being in Unholy Presence and all). Thanks in advance ~

 

Orlgin

1) Pulling all five points from Desecration is impossible as one is required to reach the bottom tiers of Unholy. You can cut four points from Desecration and one from Wandering Plague to maximize Morbidity and Endless Winter. It would look like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9947

2) Obliterate + Awareness was higher than Icy Touch + Vengeful Heart but not by a lot. Adding Icy Touch into the priority has the side effect of reducing both Frost Fever damage and Wandering Plague damage. Other than that, Death Coil damage goes up a little less than you lose from the Obliterates.

3) Haste and Armor Penetration are both good stats for the build but there isn't a minimum level. I used 100 ArP and it was slightly lower than 0/13/58. Obviously the more ArP you have, the better the stat gets. Expertise, Haste, and Armor Penetration should be priorities over Critical Rating, Agility, and Hit over the spell hit cap. If you decide to use Icy Touch, you'll need to up the haste to compensate.

4) You can put the one point in Desecration into Ghoul Frenzy if that helps you more. Blood Tap emergency Ghoul Frenzy isn't a bad thing to have if Desecration is unreliable.

Changing the spec to emphasize AoE costs you in the neighborhood of 200 DPS for single target or more depending on gear. The better the gear you have, the more it costs you.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Syrellia

* Please delete, outdated information here *

 

Syrellia

I know I sent some of this to Orlgin in private but here's some more information I'd like to share on 0/18/53:

Desecration: According to rotation PS > IT > BS > BS > OB > RP DUMP > OB > OB > OB > RP DUMP, Desecration has 12s uptime and 8s downtime in a 20s rune cd set (taken from 2H Unholy thread). This creates the real uptime of maximum 60%, hence the dps increase will be 0.6% per point, not 1%. Depending on the fight, if it's a moving fight where you get about 75% of that 60% uptime, which means you get 45% effect, then it's 0.45% dps increase per point. The simulation didn't take into account this effective uptime, and it simply increases the dmg per point of Desecration to be 1%. This is why I'm trying to consider putting those points elsewhere instead, but will those place make it worth it? Analysis below:

• Suppose 1% increase in crit rate means 1% increase in dps (1% to get double damage, rule out the extra crit modifier), and taken from the data above, blood strike + obliterate total up 18% of the dps, then 1 point in subversion would increase that by 3% so it's worth 18%*0.03=0.54% dps increase per point. The % threat reduction which will help a bit is not accountable here.
• Death Coil 7% of the overall dps from sims taken above. Therefore 3 points in morbidity would increase your dps by 7%*0.15=1.05%. The dps increase per point will be 0.35% (very low). AoE effect of DnD (reduction in cooldown time) is not taken in consideration here.
• The last point of Desecration can be put either in Improved Unholy Presence for 32 extra boots RP, Ghoul Frenzy for healing effect & some ghoul burst or just leave it in Desecration.

Conclusion: Although the points in Desecration aren't as good as it seems, for stationary fights it's still better than others (at 0.6% dps increase per point). However I'd pick Subversion & Morbidity for AoE situations & threats reduction, also maybe ghoul frenzy or improved UP depending how comfortable my healers feel about healing my pet.

0/18/53 and its variation is very comfortable to play, with a generous amount of RP generated. In AoE situation it retains all of Unholy might, featuring DnD (if specced for Morbidity), high scaling diseases, possibly 8% reduction in threat, Wandering Plague, Unholy Blight and Blood Presence. It also allows the full use of ArP gears, and haste. Note that if you want to consider the real dps in stationary fights in the sims, please take 3/5 Desecration and leave 2 points float, so it is closer to 60% uptime figure during patchwerk-like fights.

Comparison vs. 0/13/58: The dps looks similar, and the AoE ability looks similar. I don't know why in my sims, the dps of those 2 with my current stats are very similar even without Desecration in 0/18/53. Perhaps it's correct, perhaps I'm doing something wrong.

Comparison vs. 0/17/54: 0/18/53 is superior AoE-wise because of fighting in Blood Presence. For single target, I seriously don't know why 0/17/54 pulls ahead by a few hundred dps in sims, even with 200ms - 250ms latency. In practical, it's very difficult to tell although I do feel more confident when dealing single target dps with 0/17/54. I need some help here to address this issue.

So as mentioned, if anyone would like to help or comment on those analysis I'd really appreciate it. I won't post the sims details here, but if you're interested, i'll PM you my character stats/rotations used to verify. I'd really like to see 0/18/53 at its peak and its performance.

 

Spoonyou

I've been playing with 1/18/52 spec for about 2 months now and I've seen very little information on what levels of armor pen. to look for. I'm currently at 375 (30.45%) and it seems like my dps has been about the same even with some massive gear upgrades (greatness card, etc). Am I over-prioritizing armor pen.? My dps also seems excessively dependent on raid buffs - I do only 3k in heroics but close to 7k in ulduar with all buffs present (single target).

 

Doomers

I've been playing recently in 17/54 build and it's quite nice and versatile - it's good for both stationary fights and those that require a lot of moving, due to the fact that most damaging combo - IT + DC allows you to to make DMG even during movement. But there are three major disadvantages of this build:

1. The Ghoul - requires a lot of micromanaging and sometimes even Ghoul frenzy is not enough to save it's life - hitting it with DC helps - but - when ghoul suffers, my char is probably also being hit hard, so it's better to use DS to help myself survive than to save ghoul - according to the rule - dead DK doesn't DPS a lot...
2. Gearing - Armor Penetration - fact is that there is a lot of it on Ulduar gear. As around one third of damage in this build comes from physical sources, or even more - ghoul also gets benefit from it, it is not being fully used.
3. Disease damage - this is the problem, especially on single target - PS and IT hit very often not allowing diseases to tick properly - it is really hard to keep rotation that leaves proper time for ticks. That leads to another fact - Wandering Plague works at lower rate.
And this problem is going to be even worse - next patch is going to introduce 15% increased damage for both diseases and 4T9 bonus set - which will allow diseases to crit. At this point question raises - will they crit according to melee (crit rating + agi + talents) or only caster (crit rating + talents) crit rate? And how it will work with Wandering Plague - 4 x normal dmg? That would be nice boost in AoE situations.

Having in mind above points 3.1.3 will be the end of spam version of UH DW in my oppinion.


So what next? I really like DW style but I personally dislike SS, so I've found that there is third opportunity (I'm not considering Frost DW atm) - Obliterate driven one. I figured that I'll experiment a bit with 1/18/52.

I imagine rotation to be something like:

PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> OB -> dump (DC)
OB -> OB -> OB -> dump (DC)

in Blood presence.

Unfortunately I don't have 4T8 pieces atm, and I'm not going to get them soon :/ due to the fact that during holidays my guild raids less, so I'm not able to test it properly.

Major differences of this build in comparison to 17/54:

1. Moving fights unfriendly - requires melee range to produce enough RP to launch DC.

2. 1/18/52 requires melee hit and expertise cap to run smoothly --> a lot of gearing to make it work,

3. Even less Ghoul survivability - no Ghoul Frenzy.


Finally, what is really sad - Frost DW builds will probably outdamage any UH DW.

Edit: typo.

 

Spoonyou

Generally IT Precedes PS due to range (you can get it off while charging the monster before in melee range). Also I generally use OB before BSx2 to get those runes on their cool-down asap. What you say about movement fights seems a little strange to me as generally I find melee to have the advantage in movement fights over casters because of the lack of cast bars and ability to fire abilities on the run. You may want to practice mouse-movement to stay on top of the mob you're fighting - I rarely miss any melee strikes due to range. And while it's true that instant-cast spells have the advantage of not NEEDing to be in melee range - you should be anyway for white hits. As for gearing to make 1/18/52 work I find it even easier to gear for than most other specs because going over the special ability cap isn't wasted points as they go still affect white hits (which do most of your damage). Anywhere over 280 hit is fine for me (as long as I'm jugging hit for other valuable stats) because even though I'm missing more I'm hitting harder. Maybe I just dont notice misses/dodge as much because of the haste and raid buffs which enable me to have a little extra time in my rotation for a "failed" gcd. Anyway: it seems easy enough to gear for me - unless you can give more specific examples. As for ghoul frenzy it's easy enough to pick up the talent if you find it valuable but my experience is that he RARELY dies with wild growth/prayer of mending/ etc aoe heals that I could prolly drop GF for something else. And saying "Frost DW builds will probably outdamage any UH DW" without any evidence or logic seems very mis-placed. IMO you should learn to play melee before you try to flame a melee specced melee class.

 

Morpheouss

Id just go with a nice 2h weapon untill you found the 1h weapons you wanted...buy a titanlsteel destroyer untill I could run 25 naxx when geared enough and get inevitable defeat...or betrayer of humanity if you are as lucky to get that far and down Kt.

As far as the posts go...About the 3rd or 4th post on here a guy commented on how he had a better offhand weapon. What he was getting at was that it was for dps NOT TANKING which is clearly better as a oh weapon. I dont care about defense if I'm dps so why use a oh weapon that is for tanking...

 

Orlgin

@Morpheouss: If you are questioning why [Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers] is the best off-hand, it's due to the higher DPS on the weapon. You are correct that you get no real benefit from the tanking stats but the value of the DPS of the weapon outweighed the lack of offensive stats. There is no DPS one handed weapon at that ilevel which is what causes the odd itemization. If there was a DPS weapon available at that ilevel, we'd use it.

@Doomers: 01/18/52 is designed around the fact that there is so much Armor Penetration plate armor that you may accumulate a lot of it in your gearing. The spec allows you to use a lot of Armor Penetration to your advantage. Unlike 0/17/54 and 0/13/58, Armor penetration is a valuable stat. If you prefer the Unholy playstyle and/or need to bring the Ebon Plaguebringer buff to your raid, this is an option for you as normally having a lot of Armor Penetration is bad for DPS if you are Unholy. Keep in mind that 0/17/54 is the top spec according to the simulator and based on results of raid testing for duel-wielding.

@Spoonyou: Unholy DW specs gain a lot from raid buffs. A lot of the scaling is improved by raid buffs such as the +20% haste brought by a Frost DK or an Enhance shaman. They are, in fact, designed to take advantage of raid buffs as much as possible. While another spec may be better for soloing, these are designed for maximum DPS in a raid. As for Armor Penetration, it scales better as you get more of it so keep getting it. The more you have, the better a DPS stat it becomes. If at all possible, bring someone in your ten man to bring the 20% melee haste buff as it is a big portion of your DPS.

As for 3.2 specs, 0/17/54 and 0/18/53 are the top Unholy DW specs at the moment. Note that 0/13/58 gets the nerf bat because Scourge Strike got nerfed again. They both gain these buffs:

1) Unholy Blight changes to add 20% more damage to a Death Coil. This is a buff for single target but a nerf for AoE DPS. Note that using too many death coils in a row can cause loss of DPS because there is a limit to the number of UB stacks that a mob can receive.

2) Desolation replaces Desecration. The 20 second duration is superior to the 12 second duration that Desecration had. Blood Strike as the initiating strike means higher uptimes for the 0/18/53 spec. Losing the bad Desecration animation is a bonus as well.

3) Gargoyle is reverted to a fixed runic cost. The damage per runic power goes up which is a direct buff.

4) Disease scaling improves. This adds more to 0/18/53 because of the massive clipping that 0/17/54 generates but both benefit from higher damaging diseases. This extra disease damage offsets the AOE loss from Unholy Blight and is an overall buff because the GCD for Unholy Blight isn't needed to do good AOE damage.

If they decide to buff Blood Strike again, we'll also have that. We now will be compared to the Frost counterparts so to be truly viable, Unholy DW specs will need to do as much DPS as the top specs in Frost.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Kyruski

Due to changes in my schedule and the ability to no longer raid, I am quitting WoW for now. As a result, I will be asking a mod to close this thread. If someone else would like to reopen it for the time that 3.1 is still live, be my guest. It's been a pleasure theorycrafting with you all.

 

Octopi

Thank you for all the work you put into it up until now Pandas.

 

• Vulajin

On the assumption that, even if someone else decided to keep this thread going, they'd want to have the ability to update the OP, I'll close this thread. Feel free to PM me if you want it reopened, otherwise feel free to remake it.