Daeren

Since there was some doubt, and since I didn't post any data (was at a lecture with my tablet pc) on that I disagreed with OP, here goes data. Note, that this is with Sigil of the Vengeful heart.
http://gedkp.site50.net/personlig/resultsjune.rtf
http://gedkp.site50.net/personlig/blood2h.xml
That's the long list of breakdowns, to make it in short (all of it was through the standard 24 hour testing on DKsim 0.8.4):

Standard 51/2/18 build that follows DKsim:
DPS 6060

Less-ghoul, more DRW 51/2/18 (more points in necrosis and BCB)
DPS 6153

50/0/21 Less ghoul spec (max Necrosis and BCB) with unholy blight 100% uptime
DPS 6224

50/0/21 Same build as above, but without usage of unholy blight.
DPS 6292

If you want to check out more specifically what gear I use and breakdowns, it's in the files i linked.

To put it how I see it. Yes, DRW is highly situational, and can be useful when you have loads of buffs and can do tons of damage. Nice burst damage. The problem is, that while DRW might go ahead if you have greatness card procced, heroism up, trinket nr 2 up, and FC up, that's a situation that might not happen.
But, will it outweigh the 232 DPS on average? That's quite a significant increase.

 

Daeren

*edit double post*

 

shed

Your sim is only taking into account a Patchwerk type boss, there are a lot of Ulduar fights that require a lot of movement and burst damage where Unholy blight will not be able to tick for full durations.

 

Daeren

Indeed, but my pure DC spam was what won ahead.
Also, I don't see how a non-PW-stlye boss helps DRW with more than a pure DC spam.

 

• Darkside

If I'm reading this data correctly, you seem to be implying that dumping all your RP through Deathcoil is a better use for it than using DRW every minute and a half, correct? There's no way that's possible.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

• Soilantgreen64

When raiding you have tons of buffs, that's why Blood does so well in a raid setting. On average FC has ~ 75% uptime, and Greatness ~30%, with a trinket like Grim Toll coming in around ~20%. The fact is you are going to have overlapping procs a lot of the time. Also you didnt sim 51/0/20, which is in my opinion the current standard raid build.

The only other comment I would make here is you have to ask yourself whether or not your sim results make sense. You drop DRW from your build to pick up UB, and it looks like your DPS goes up. Then you run the sim without using UB, and your DPS goes up again.

Just looking at a WWS from one of my raids from an ignis fight, DC averaged ~3k, ~6k on crits, so 100 RP spent on DCs would yield roughly ~10k damage. 3 instances of DRW did ~100k dmg, so roughly ~30k/100 RP. So reality is in stark contrast with the sim results you provided, which makes me not really put any weight behind them.

Since your results tell us that DC spam is better than UB, why would you ever spec into UB? Anecdotally I know for certain that spending 100 RP on DRW yields a greater DPS gain then DC. So if I took anything at all from the results you provided, it would be that the simulator probably still isnt there 100% on modeling DRW yet, and that UB is probably still a terrible talent, definately not worth taking over DRW.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Who says the sim models DRW correctly? I bet it's just a guess, based on my spreadsheet experience.
My DRW does about 4-5% of the total damage. That's far more than the usual 1% per talent point and a great way to get rid of all that rp. On top of that it's a burst skill with a short cd and there are lots of uses for burst in Ulduar.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Decaying

So in your effort to prove that taking UB over DRW you instead prove that 100% uptime on UB is a loss over not using it at all? I dont understand how you came to the conclusion that this means UB is worth taking. Also you are not comparing apples to apples. You are comparing a 51/2/18 DRW build missing maxed necrosis/bcb to a UB build that has both maxed. In my experience 2 points in frost for 3 sec/90 sec more drw uptime is a dps loss over putting the points in unholy. My drw does 30k per gcd use at 100 RP without popping other cd's along with it. It's important to note that using your rp to spam DC as your sim suggested is unrealistic as well. A proper blood rotation leaves you with a minimim of free gcd, and you shouldn't be dumping RP if you have any runes up for hs/ds, as DC is a dps loss if hs or ds is available. Again, this isn't even counting the burst potential that drw has on fights like XT, and with a proc monitor you can easily time your drw with a greatness/fc proc

 

Afabar

Here is how the DRW is implemented in my simulator.

• DRW inherit of players buff.
• DRW inherit of players AP, haste and hit.
• DRW do not benefit of player talent.
• DRW do not benefit of player glyph.
• DRW base speed is 3.5
• DRW white hit damage are reduce by 50%
• DRW special damage are reduce by 50%
• Benefit only of its own desease

Do you see anything wrong?

 

Ellitus

deleted

 

Daeren

Greatness has an average of 33% uptime.
I'm not saying that overlapping procs are impossible, I'm just saying that it has potential for doing more, but it requires buffs to stack.
To clarify further, I did the custom build DRW that had 51/2/18, but more points in necrosis and BCB compared to standard build with more ghoul.
The question about 51/0/20 vs 50/0/21 is which offers more usefulness. In both cases, using straight out DCs seems to win out on singletarget.
The usefulness of UB is that it's precastable, for example you can use excess RP to prepare it right before spawn (Mimiron and Freya comes to mind). And that it does AOE of course.

If a DRW without 2 points in frost lasts 16 seconds (glyphed), that means that if you keep on doing average DPS of 6k, it SHOULD do 48k damage per use. The thing is that it doesn't. There's issues with talents and stuff affecting it, and I can't say I noticed any fixes to that lately.
DKsim was updated about a month ago.

SO, maybe the calculator is horribly off, these s the results I get. It does result in that DC is a better use than DRW.

Also, on the rune usage, it's a set priority of HS and DS over DC in my sim. Priority is diseases up first and foremost, then heart strikes, then DS, then DC.
How DRW is implemented, you'd have to ask the author: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t50274-k..._beta_0_8_4_a/

In theory, DRW has a 17,7% uptime, and with a 50% of damage done this would be 8,8% damage increase. That's not timing it with procs. The increase of damagei n death coils are correct, the question is, is the sim calculating the damage DRW does too low?
There's quite a big difference between 2% and 8,8%.
Because this is interesting, I will take my fellow DK, and have him do normal playing like we do, and one goes 51/0/20, and uses DRW, and one gowes our normal spec. We already have pretty identical specs, and pretty much same gear and DPS. Both have played Blood before wit DRW since WotLK launch.

*Edit* Creator of simulator posted, I'll leave the point on whether or not DRW calculation is correct to him-

 

Darian_TruBlade

I bolded one error. DRW also inherits player crit. I don't know if this includes talents which increase the crit chance of specific abilities. At the very least, it should be critting a lot more than it is in Daeren's sim runs. Also, I assume that when you say that DRW doesn't benefit from player glyphs you aren't excluding Glyph of DRW.

The rest seem correct, but unfortunately constitute an incomplete description of how you simulate DRW. How is DRW timed in your simulator? Does your simulator attempt to line up appropriate buffs (trinkets, Hysteria etc.) before using DRW? Does the simulator save ERW for DRW? Does the simulator ensure 100RP before using DRW? Those are just some of the non-technical questions left unanswered.

There's also the possibility that you have an error in your code, or in your implementation of what you outlined, or in one of the areas you left out (such as DRW duration). It may be unlikely, but when we get results which conflict strongly with in-game data it's necessary to eliminate all possible causes.

Finally, according to Daeren's sim data, it looks like DRW's average hit is 877 damage. Is this the average of all DRW abilities being used, or just melee (a better breakdown of DRW damage would be helpful)? Either way, it seems far lower than expected. Over a 24 hour period, you'd expect DRW to be up for a total of ~4.25 hours. Even if it was doing 25% of the DK's DPS it should have done approximately twice as much damage.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

dr_AllCOM3

Base crit would be interesting, should be 5% or 20%. Your theorycraft is correct, but ingame it's different. In my sheet DRW does not do enough damage, too (about 2%). On my two top 20 WMO Vezax kills DRW accounts for 4,7% and 5,5%. That is significantly more. I don't know why, but it's not that important. DRW is good anyway and scales of Str.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Afabar

Trinket are not implemented right now, but DRW is used on FC proc. DRW should benefit of Hysteria once every two usage.
And of course, simulator wait to be at max RP to fire it.
ERW is not implemented. DRW disease damage are not calculated. But I don't think it is what is where the 6% missing damage are hiding.

Edit : DRW is implemented with 5% base critical chance

 

• Soilantgreen64

This is the big problem I have with sims, is people either incorrectly interpreting their results, or failing to evaluate the hypothetical against known data. DC doing more dmg doesn't make it a better use than DRW. DRW is always going to be higher dmg/RP then DC. The WWS I linked in the OP shows DRW as something like ~3.5% of my total for the whole instance, yet I don't DRW on trash, on boss fights it's typically closer to the 6-8% range. So 2% is clearly undervaluing it.

 

• Darkside

DRW does not benefit from Hysteria, for whatever reason. It does, however, benefit from trinket procs.

Blood Simple - A Consolidated Blood DK DPS Guide

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Darian_TruBlade

If DRW Disease damage isn't calculated I'm extremely perplexed as to why its average hit, according to Daeren's run, is only 877 damage. The average damage for the DK's Death Strike, Heart Strike, Death Coil and Melee swings are 6948, 6219, 5331 and 4572 respectively. Averaging those out we get 5892 average damage per attack. Effectively, DRW appears to only do 15% (877/5892) of the DK's damage in your sim. While we don't expect 50% due to talents, 15% is extremely low.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Krom[Fenris]

Straying a bit from the DPS comparisons, I have a question regarding the mechanics of the cleave on our Heart Strike. I assumed it worked the same as a warriors Cleave ability, except with 1 less target, but it seems I may have been wrong. Using Kologarn as the example, the DPS warrior in my guild was able to Cleave and hit both of the arms and the body, whereas if I use Heart Strike it will only hit whatever I'm targetting. We both stand directly in front of Kologarns beard, facing him, since you can hit all 3 targets from there. So what I'm wondering is if any testing or data is available that describes the range and arc of our cleave. It would seem that we have a narrower arc if his was cleaving and mine wasn't.

 

Sevexe

Ellitus- The problem your having is because of how your runes refresh. You should switch around your proposed rotation to DS, IT, PS, HS, HS, Dump, HS, HS, DS, HS, HS, Dump. The reason being, the only benefit DS gets from diseases is to the amount it heals you, so putting it in front of the rotation allows you to have two death runes refresh first, allowing the two HS's in the second half of the rotation. Try that out and I garuntee that the rotation feels alot better for you.

 

Noadha

He will still have the large 4-second gap on the first rotation, no matter what, especially if your saving RP for a DRW. I had a hard time with it at first, but it is just a matter of being patient through your first rotation, then it will all come together.

 

Waterboard

I have had the exact same problems with Kolo, I was not sure if it was because of our warriors WW/sweeping strikes as we have 2 MS warriors. I cannot position myself anywhere to cleave both the body and an arm. Does anyone know of a spot to hit both from?

Nothing is what it seems, nor is it otherwise.

 

Lujaar

I did some quick DRW testing tonight. I'm 99% sure DRW gets hysteria and inherits at least some talents.

Tested by comparing deathstrike damage, full DPS gear minus trinkets, [Giant Mace] (no runeforge), all deathstrikes fired with 3/3 bloody vengeance, abom's might, horn, and at least 26 RP. In every test where I used hysteria, hysteria went up before DRW. I only got a couple dozen DS's in before I got bored waiting on cooldowns so take this as anecdotal, but the [Giant Mace] has a really tiny damage range so big differences in damage should show up in just a few swings.

-In every test with a DRW DS crit, the crit was close to 250% of the average non-crit, which looks like Might of Mograine.

-DRW's DS's seemed to hit for 35%-40% of my DS's, with or without hysteria. Assuming DRW doesn't inherit your glyphs, and my data isn't off, then DRW probably has Improved Death Strike. This also seems to show that DRW's DS is getting hysteria.

-I'm seeing a significant difference in DRW DS damage with hysteria vs without. Without hysteria, my DRW's non-crit DS's ranged from 726-771. With hysteria up, the smallest was 907.


I'd guess that DRW has the major passive blood talents baked in. Besides MoM and Imp DS, it'd probably be worth testing Bloody Strikes if we could be sure how rune weapon's HS interacts with diseases. Also it looks like DRW gets hysteria on specials, although I'm not sure about white swings. It's entirely possible that DRW uses one set of rules to calculate specials and another to calculate autoattacks.

 

• Darkside

I did some testing last night with autoattacks and observed similar results. With melee swings in the ~1200 range going up to the ~1400 range once Hysteria was used. Somehow, I managed to overlook all of this when I did my first round of tests (I suspect I was casting Hysteria after popping DRW, instead of before).

We should definitely look into testing various other talents/abilities, particularly percentage based multipliers such as Blood Vengeance, Blood Presence and Tricks of the Trade.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Canadianloaf

Is it worthwhile adding VoA bosses to the AMS guide in the OP, or is it so obvious when to use it that it would insult people's intelligence to do so?

Emalon: Use on Lightning Nova whenever it is up, and you can not only gain full RP but also stay in closer proximity or even melee range to the boss.
Archavon: Pop whenever it's up and run through a gas cloud.

 

Lujaar

Presumably it doesn't snapshot all your stats. Blizzard has stated repeatedly that there's a technical limitation preventing pets from scaling with some stats.

For what it's worth, I got some strange results initially when I started testing naked. My deathstrikes were in the 700 range, DRW's were in the 500s. The "DRW does 50% of your damage" thing is probably an approximation to make the tooltip cleaner - whatever formula DRW uses, I doubt the last operation is multiplying by 0.5. Most likely DRW gets a certain base swing damage and a percentage of your stats, just like every other pet in the game. When Blizzard nerfed DRW what they probably did was made that percentage much lower.