Completely forgot about the free deathcoil. Thanks for the tips.

So doing a priority type rotation is a bad idea, and I should probably drop another point in epidemic and hope that when I have to move away from the boss/or do aoe on the fly (freya) its only long enough to make it back in under 4-5 seconds or just enough rune usage to get back in and complete the rotation.

And if i'm out longer than 4-5 seconds/or use runes for aoe, just auto-attack and wait for the rotation to set itself up again, got it.

Might want to DS earlier than that imo so that you have at least your first two HS buffed by abom might, and DCing mid rotation is not quite as efficient unless you're about to go over RP cap. Just some food for thought.

I run with a Marks hunter so Abom might is not a issue for me. And as far as Dc in the middle of the rotation after the fist Ds you have time to Dcx1 and even after the first Dc you still have about .5 seconds left till you can Ds again, But at the end of the rotation after one Dc you can either Ps to start the rotation or Dc again, Either way i think the difference is really small

I've been using Sigil of the Vengeful Heart and 2PC T8 and thus I try to dump up to 25 RP after every rune rotation. I guess I'll have to go back and re-check to see if it's still worth it to do so or not.

Also, missed something with zeheres. Read his posts again:
To me it would appear that he doesn't realize Expertise reduces Dodge chance, and that a mob can Dodge from behind.

Just wanted to weigh in on the expertise discussion. I know that with various sims and spreadsheets the hierarchy of stats is Str > ArPen > Expertise (before cap). Therefore, the argument has always been that you should invariably gem for Str. There are theoretical levels of AP (the magic 6200 AP that you here quoted ever so often) where it becomes more advantageous to gem ArPen versus Str, but I think the feeling is that at a certain gear level the differences are so close its hard to convincingly prove one versus the other. However, one thing I did want to point out in the case of expertise is that Blood more so than the other DK specs gets hurt particular hard not being at or close to the 25-26 expertise cap. Generally, we are using more GCDs per rune cycle (compared to say Unholy with SS glyph) and depending on how many points in Epidemic you have an errant dodge can mean the difference between 1 or 2 blood strikes without diseases up.

I picked up a few upgrades in 25 Uldaur, gaining about 10% ArPen while losing 9 expertise. Its a fairly noticeable drop since being at 22 expertise before it almost doubles the amount of dodges I have to deal with. Now once I finally get the T8 chest this should be negated somewhat, but looking at the gear combinations it seems stacking ArPen makes you come up short from the expertise cap. I'm thinking in this scenario where you are just 1 or 2 points away an odd expertise gem here or there might be worthwhile, moreso than a calculator might indicate. If anything the annoyance factor of dodges in the middle of your rotation would be worth getting rid of.

This is an excellent point. I had the same experience, except the opposite way. Going into Ulduar, I only had about 14 exp, due to having bad luck in naxx gear and never having pieces with expertise on them drop for me. When first doing ulduar, my rotations were tightly packed, hard to pull off, and generally headache inducing.


After picking up a couple of choice pieces, and now at 22, I am noticing the rotations are much easier to get off, and in general make for a easier, less stressful game experience. This is a advantage that exp has that really can't be included in sims- because we are not machines like the sims are.


Also, less dodges is also advantageous in movement fights- because as you are running around, you may have that extra half second lag before using GCD's- which will multiply the effect a dodge has on your rotation. With Ulduar, every single advantage you can bring to bear to make sure your diseases are up should be implemented. The loss of ArP versus the advantage you gain to me personally is more than worth it.

Let me give a quick example of gearing choices: [Girdle of Embers] versus [Belt of the Titans]. From a pure stat point, and as seen in the BiS thread before we found the Algalon belt, Embers is better. However, the amount of exp gained can easily make up for the loss, especially considering 3 gem slots. 2 slots gemmed for ArP could make it so you are only missing out on 17 ArP, and if you are JC, 17 Str. For this, you gain 40 exp. It ends up being about equal, but the ease of the rotation when it comes to adding in Titans is just that much easier.

Expertise in my opinion helps make the game more fun, especially for blood.

There is nothing wrong with going for the expertise soft cap; but again, it becomes a matter of personal preference, and will lower your *potential* dps if you sacrifice better stats. Depending on your individual skill, comfort level, and playing style, you may actually notice an improvement from dropping ArP for exp. But it's important to note in this dps forum that to maximize your *potential* for dmg dealing, you should go for stats like Str and ArP.

It's analogous to swinging for the fences vs. slap-hitting for average. The first way, your potential to hit a monster home run is greater, but you're also more likely to miss completely. You have to decide whether you want an easier ssmoother fight with consistently good dmg, or a more complex unpredictable fight that requires you to work hard and be on your toes to maximize even higher potential dmg.

I think it's safe to say that although there is a theoretical dps hierarchy of Str > ArP > Exp, there will not be a consensus because of this personal choice component. So there's really not much point discussing it beyond understanding the differing merits of each approach.

If I look at my own numbers I just don't see the same thing. Going by our Heartbreaker kill last night my DRW did 203,343 damage through six casts giving it an average of 33,891 damage per cast. My DC did 5,282 damage per cast, so if every DRW is worth 2.5 DC's (13,206 damage on average) I'm gaining 20k damage per DRW cast over DC per minute and a half, or roughly 230 DPS. If I'm missing something let me know, I'm no math wiz, but I'd say you certainly don't gain anything from DC spam over just using DRW.

I see several issues with your argument.

1) Our three standard DPS glyphs are Dark Death, Death Strike, and DRW. You have demonstrated the value of the DRW glyph is ~1.4% more damage in these cases. For your argument to be complete, you need to demonstrate the value of the Ghoul, Disease, and UB glyphs in comparison. I have strong doubts that either of the first two are comparable.

2) You have demonstrated that unglyphed DRW is a DPS increase over DC spam, and though not massive it is still significant. Observing the first case, you have a single talent point with which to make up that difference. You have not pointed to any places where that point might be spent for a comparable gain.

Essentially you have the foundation of a potentially strong argument against DRW, but you haven't actually built anything on it. You need to prove that you have an alternative that is superior, not close to as good.

It's even simpler than that. I have yet to see 2 Deathcoils (or 3 if you specced RPM) do more damage as a DRW on the same amount of runic power. This is mostly because if you use DRW properly, as laid out in many of the above posts, you can boost it's damage much further than anything you will get with a Death Coil.

Swarly: On heartbreaker, that is a special case where you pop hysteria + DRW + everything on heart. Of course it's going to be biased towards. Of course DRW is superior on that fight.

Darian: True, there might not be better alternatives for glyphs. Disease have been brought up as an alternative, and it might be enough of an increase. Need to fetch the data for the value of disease.
And yes, there might not be some talent point that increases it's damage by the same amount, but it's not impossible. Night of the Dead isn't impossible, and maybe BCB or necrosis for those who skipped a point there?

Soilant: I think you should reread my post. 3 casts which costs a total of 120 rp as a base (40 each). Then I calculate the number of seconds and see how much RP is being used on those 3 casts. I have not said anything about a single 120 rp, and as you saw, I calculated to a total of 280 rp used on three casts.

The reason why I chose Vezax is that it's a pretty straight forward hard mode where DPS is essential to the fight and nothing to gain extra damage on. Ignis and XT have been posted as candidates, but XT has the obvious fault in that it has the heart. Ignis might be better, but you might get slagpotted and that screwing with your numbers. Also, Ignis is a shorter fight and insignificant on DPS.

The question isn't really if DRW is a DPS increase by taking that talent point, but when I list some of the highest DPS from WMO on Vezax, I assume they know how to time DRW well (and as you see, avg hit for DRW was higher than avg normal melee hit = better conditions for DRW).

The point is that you have to make sure you time those cooldowns accordingly to maximize DRW when you could use them in a better time. Let's say your trinket, FC and greatness procced, but it's 30 seconds left before DRW is ready, but your hysteria just became ready. The problem here is that you lose a potential good DPS window if you save hysteria for later use, or if you have to hold DRW usage until next time the trinkets procs together with FC and you then can use ERW. You have more freedom in using your cooldowns when not including DRW, and you don't need to make sure you have enough RP for when that happens. And of course, you lose potential DS damage if you cast DS right after DRW because you just spent all your RP.
Now, this may sound like I think it's alot of job on paper, but I know it's jsut a matter of thinking and doing automatically. Of course, you can choose to NOT use DRW and still have the talent point there since there's no better use of that talent point and glyph.
I understand that there are times when CDs get to cool down and you benefit more from DRW (like for example Mimiron, but then again, you might lose potential time by having to move). I see the hard modes where it might be useful, but others it might not.
It's a choice, and not using DRW is a valid reason. If I'm leading a raid, chances are that I will miss a window of oppurtunity for casting DRW and maximizing it.

In short for the last part:

• Choice of another glyph (disease or ghoul for example)
• Another talent point (NotD, epidemic, blood worms, impurity, UB, outbreak or dirge)
• No change of rotation (like either losing potential damage on that DS or a change of that rotation)
• Being able to time cooldowns easier

can be more valuable than the increase that DRW gives in many situations, but maybe not all.

It's far from nailing the coffin, and I think a discussion on it is healthy since it's not a clear cut better choice in my opinion.