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Old 08/06/09, 9:25 AM   #476
Choice
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Jubei'Thos
with the new DRW, rotations need to be looked at. The first string at least.

I have noticed that if you don't pre-load your runic power and just go with a normal rotation your DRW is avaiable with about 6 or 7 seconds left on diseases. The choice then is to wait on DRW or pop it. If you wait its just in the rotation 6 seconds later, but since "on hit" trinkets like greatness seem to proc off the first few hits in a fight, you usually dont have these buffs up when you pop DRW. If you do pop DRW as soon as its ready you should be able to take advantage of the trinket buffs you get at the start of the fight but you have to restart your rotation mid way through the first string wasting time that was left on diseases.

My solution for today (tested on ulduar bosses up to hodir) was to pre-load about 40 rp with horn of winter, DnD, and blood tap. then when I go in I hit death strike, heart strike, heart strike, DRW, icy touch, plague strike, EMPOWER RUNE WEAPON, heart strike x4, death strike, with death coils thrown in around the 4 heart strikes so as not to over cap runic power.

The reason I was starting with DS and HS was to proc my trinket buffs. This rotation start for boss fights tries to get the best use out of the new mechanics of DRW and the harder hitting diseases.

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Old 08/06/09, 9:53 AM   #477
shed
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by Rogish View Post
Quote
Isn't DRW white damage only?
No.

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Old 08/06/09, 10:20 AM   #478
Descended
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Durotan
Originally Posted by oneal13rru View Post
Also: With DRW's new fixed duration, it has an absolute maximum uptime of .1333... Assuming roughly 90% of blood DPS is of the type used by DRW this gives us an additional 45% damage for 13% of the fight. 45% X 13% comes to 5.85% additional damage. Unfortuanately I'm incredibly tired, I wanted to post this much before passing out. If anyone sees a glaring math error, please tell me, and expect an edit with finished numbers in the morning.
It appears you've used the unglyphed duration of DRW. With the additional 5 seconds from the glpyh, your maximum uptime is ~18.89% .

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Old 08/06/09, 11:27 AM   #479
Lelany
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Das Syndikat (EU)
Originally Posted by Choice View Post
with the new DRW, rotations need to be looked at. The first string at least.

I have noticed that if you don't pre-load your runic power and just go with a normal rotation your DRW is avaiable with about 6 or 7 seconds left on diseases. The choice then is to wait on DRW or pop it. If you wait its just in the rotation 6 seconds later, but since "on hit" trinkets like greatness seem to proc off the first few hits in a fight, you usually dont have these buffs up when you pop DRW. If you do pop DRW as soon as its ready you should be able to take advantage of the trinket buffs you get at the start of the fight but you have to restart your rotation mid way through the first string wasting time that was left on diseases.

My solution for today (tested on ulduar bosses up to hodir) was to pre-load about 40 rp with horn of winter, DnD, and blood tap. then when I go in I hit death strike, heart strike, heart strike, DRW, icy touch, plague strike, EMPOWER RUNE WEAPON, heart strike x4, death strike, with death coils thrown in around the 4 heart strikes so as not to over cap runic power.

The reason I was starting with DS and HS was to proc my trinket buffs. This rotation start for boss fights tries to get the best use out of the new mechanics of DRW and the harder hitting diseases.

So the Trinket Buffs are fine but isn't it better to wait for Bloodlust, so you can pop Speed Potion and Hysteria?

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Old 08/06/09, 1:01 PM   #480
Mericet
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Kargath
Apologies if this has been mentioned but I couldn't find it with the search function (or on the patch notes for that matter). DRW seems to have a very strange issue with death coil. I think it has something to do with the range from its target, but I can't be sure. All I can tell you is that when I pop DRW and death coil something that I'm not standing next to, the DRW will not copy the spell. When I AM next to the enemy, it will. I'm not sure if what matters is my distance from the target or the weapon's, or if it has something to do with not being in combat, but something is definitely strange.

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Old 08/06/09, 2:17 PM   #481
Adamas1
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Madoran
If possible , i need some advice with itemization.

I am currently Using Grim Toll + Greatness

There is a new trinket from the Normal 5 man i can easily obtain, so is this Banner of Victory - Items - Sigrie Better than Greatness?

Currently when Grim toll procs i have 99.71 % ArP, but all my gems are ArP, so with that i could regem 4 20 ArP gems to strength, which would result in an exact cap, with a loss of 10 Strength, with also a chance of proccing 1008 AP.

Current Greatness procs - 300 Str = APE of--

300 x 2.89 = 867 AP, if you want to add 10% (Kings) it is 330 Str
330x2.89 = 953.7 AP

1008 > 953.7 Thoughts?

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Old 08/06/09, 2:48 PM   #482
AtheistGod
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
Greatness should beat it handily. It's the Grim Toll that is what you should be looking at.

If you aren't over capping ArP than Grim Toll is 83 hit rating and about 122 ArP, Banner of Victory is 84 ArP and about 202 AP. If you need the hit Grim Toll is the better trinket. If you either don't need the hit or are significantly(like 20-25%) over capping ArP with the proc the banner will be better. Greatness in comparison is about 240 STR and completely trumps both.

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Old 08/06/09, 3:20 PM   #483
Adamas1
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Madoran
Originally Posted by AtheistGod View Post
Greatness should beat it handily. It's the Grim Toll that is what you should be looking at.

If you aren't over capping ArP than Grim Toll is 83 hit rating and about 122 ArP, Banner of Victory is 84 ArP and about 202 AP. If you need the hit Grim Toll is the better trinket. If you either don't need the hit or are significantly(like 20-25%) over capping ArP with the proc the banner will be better. Greatness in comparison is about 240 STR and completely trumps both.
With the Grim toll Proc i do not have 100% ArP, and without the proc, with my food buff, im at 50.02%

So, Banner > grim toll at this point?

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Old 08/06/09, 4:04 PM   #484
oneal13rru
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Rogish View Post
Quote
"Assuming roughly 90% of blood DPS is of the type used by DRW this gives us an additional 45% damage for 13% of the fight. 45% X 13% comes to 5.85% additional damage."

Isn't DRW white damage only?
Nope. This wouldn't ever have been a hot debate, and the ability would never ever be used if it did that low of damage.

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Old 08/06/09, 6:16 PM   #485
Lelany
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Das Syndikat (EU)
Question: The AP Cap in 25er Raid is 6200 right? So i have with Might, Kings and Hunter AP 10% or my own buff, Flask, Bufffood = 6800...does that mean i can socket all my strength gems to armpen? I am a bit confused.

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Old 08/06/09, 6:17 PM   #486
Stabmaster
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Lelany View Post
Question: The AP Cap in 25er Raid is 6200 right? So i have with Might, Kings and Hunter AP 10% or my own buff, Flask, Bufffood = 6800...does that mean i can socket all my strength gems to armpen? I am a bit confused.
... there is no AP cap.

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Old 08/06/09, 6:22 PM   #487
Lelany
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Das Syndikat (EU)
One of the current discussions is regarding an inflection point between STR and ArP. It has been currently theorized that once you exceed 6200 AP the APE for ArP will exceed that of STR. Making it proper at that point to start gemming for ArP. The math and sims behind this theory seem solid, and personally once I hit around 6300 AP raid buffed began switching some gems, with positive results thus far.

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Old 08/06/09, 6:24 PM   #488
Safo
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Cenarius
Come on ... He used the wrong words there read a little.

@Lelany:

Just like it says in the first post of this topic:

One of the current discussions is regarding an inflection point between STR and ArP. It has been currently theorized that once you exceed 6200 AP the APE for ArP will exceed that of STR. Making it proper at that point to start gemming for ArP. The math and sims behind this theory seem solid, and personally once I hit around 6300 AP raid buffed began switching some gems, with positive results thus far.

So yes, since you are at 6800 AP raid buffed you could start swapping in ArPen gems. Just make sure you aren't going over 100% ArPen with procs and all that, as that is a waste. You also want to make sure that you aren't dipping below the inflection point... best bet would be not to dip below probably 6400 AP or so buffed.

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Old 08/07/09, 1:30 PM   #489
Leaflock
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
It's worth reminding again that the 6200 AP number is largely pulled out of thin air and is not a magic inflection point at all. The value of ArPen varies with how much ArPen you have; there is not one universal value of AP where ArP becomes better. The best course of action is to sim your gear yourself for stat weights.

Considering that 1) ArPen is already easy to cap without gemming, and 2) ArPen doesn't affect your AoE damage which can be quite useful on some fights, it's still arguably better overall to gem for Str.

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Old 08/08/09, 2:13 PM   #490
Adamas1
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Madoran
Originally Posted by Leaflock View Post
It's worth reminding again that the 6200 AP number is largely pulled out of thin air and is not a magic inflection point at all. The value of ArPen varies with how much ArPen you have; there is not one universal value of AP where ArP becomes better. The best course of action is to sim your gear yourself for stat weights.

Considering that 1) ArPen is already easy to cap without gemming, and 2) ArPen doesn't affect your AoE damage which can be quite useful on some fights, it's still arguably better overall to gem for Str.

I would really like to do this, where can i find a decent 3.2 simulator?

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Old 08/08/09, 2:16 PM   #491
AtheistGod
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
Kahorie's sim has a thread in this forum.

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Old 08/08/09, 3:19 PM   #492
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by Leaflock View Post
It's worth reminding again that the 6200 AP number is largely pulled out of thin air and is not a magic inflection point at all. The value of ArPen varies with how much ArPen you have; there is not one universal value of AP where ArP becomes better. The best course of action is to sim your gear yourself for stat weights.

Considering that 1) ArPen is already easy to cap without gemming, and 2) ArPen doesn't affect your AoE damage which can be quite useful on some fights, it's still arguably better overall to gem for Str.
There is no magic behind it, but I didn't pull this number out of thin air, as it was part of my sims and stat weighting that I came to the conclusion at the time, however this was done at the beginning of Ulduar and simmed with a mix of Ulduar/Naxx gear or similar when meeting 100% ArP even with a proc was a little difficult.

With that said I completely agree with Leaflock.

In the current raid environment its very easy to get close to 100% ArP with a proc, at which time ArP would lose some of its value and being that even in my sims ArP was damn close to Str I don't see any benefit of regemming to ArP over this cap.

To reiterate some of the previous discussion on this issue it was found that similar Blood spec'd DKs were having similar success gemming either ArP or Str so there isn't any way to tell in a raid environment which was definitively better; it was too close to tell. Str obviously affects all damage and not just physical so it helps more on AoE fights. ArP for Blood is no doubt an incredible stat and heavily desired, but if you're over 400 ArP (which is seriously easy nowadays) and have an ArP trinket that procs I see no reason to gem ArP, and given the success of Unholy and Frost in 3.2 if you are lacking in the ArP department by a significant amount you may want to rethink your dps tree.

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Old 08/09/09, 8:39 AM   #493
Eru
Banned
 
Undead Hunter
 
Dalaran
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 281
EP :Agility = 100
EP :CritRating = 177
EP :HasteRating = 144
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 240
EP :ExpertiseRating = 292
EP :HitRating = 433
EP :SpellHitRating = -12
EP :WeaponDPS = 870

2h Set2
51/0/0
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048
Prio:
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<HeartStrike></HeartStrike>
<DeathStrike></DeathStrike>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>

Why i have so much hitrating at stat weight ?
greetings

Last edited by Eru : 08/09/09 at 12:40 PM.

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Old 08/09/09, 11:40 AM   #494
Mericet
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Eru View Post
2h Set2
51/0/0
Prio:
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<HeartStrike></HeartStrike>
<DeathStrike></DeathStrike>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>

Why i have so much hitrating at stat weight ?
greetings
Can't say for sure based on this why your hit rating (and expertise for that matter) are so high, but the fact that you used a 51/0/0 spec certainly isn't helping the situation. 20 additional talent points will go a very long way toward changing EP values. Additionally, make sure you set the sim time for a very long duration (500 hours minimum), and run it a few times. Realize that even a small variance in the sims (which will happen) can change the EP results dramatically, and that's IF you've set the parameters correctly.

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Old 08/09/09, 3:47 PM   #495
morbidjbyrd
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Zangarmarsh
How exactly is STR = 2.93 atk power?

Ravenous dead = 3% inc
VotW = 6% inc
Kings = 10% inc
abom might = 2% inc
FC = ~10% inc

With buffs
1 str * 1.03 * 1.06 * 1.1 = 1.2 Str
1 str = ~2.7 atk power


Is the rest of it just pet dmg?

Last edited by morbidjbyrd : 08/09/09 at 4:22 PM.

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Old 08/09/09, 3:51 PM   #496
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Pet damage, yes, but also Fallen Crusader (which has a not insubstantial uptime).

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Old 08/09/09, 4:08 PM   #497
morbidjbyrd
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Zangarmarsh
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Pet damage, yes, but also Fallen Crusader (which has a not insubstantial uptime).
FC duh... just woke up lol thx.

FC is going to be at best what? 10% str.
Thats still just 2.64

Last edited by morbidjbyrd : 08/09/09 at 4:21 PM.

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Old 08/09/09, 4:20 PM   #498
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
FC has a much higher uptime than 50%. Most parses seem to put it at about 75%, varying 10% each way depending on the nature of the fight/RNG.

1 str x 1.1 Kings x 1.06 VotW x 1.03 RavDead x 1.1125 FallenCrusader x 1.02 AbomsMight = 1.363 str, or 2.726 ap/str. Throw on ghoul damage and such, and it easily approaches that 2.8 number.

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Old 08/09/09, 4:29 PM   #499
Williedabull
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Area 52
ArP

There has been some discussion on weather STR>ArP and at what point. with a trinket proc (Grim toll) and around 420 ArP you currently can get 100% ArP for 10 seconds(the up time on Grim Toll) my question is If you can maintain 6300 AP raid buffed why wouldnt it be better to stack ArP and give 100% of your attacks more ArP with the new JC patterns it would seem to me that 250+ more ArP 100% of the time would benifit us more then hoping for a trinket proc. I am not a number cruncher maybe someone could sim it or explain why that wouldnt be better?

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Old 08/09/09, 6:07 PM   #500
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by Williedabull View Post
There has been some discussion on weather STR>ArP and at what point. with a trinket proc (Grim toll) and around 420 ArP you currently can get 100% ArP for 10 seconds(the up time on Grim Toll) my question is If you can maintain 6300 AP raid buffed why wouldnt it be better to stack ArP and give 100% of your attacks more ArP with the new JC patterns it would seem to me that 250+ more ArP 100% of the time would benifit us more then hoping for a trinket proc. I am not a number cruncher maybe someone could sim it or explain why that wouldnt be better?
If I can I'm going to implement Arp trinkets in the sim. I think it's worth it, since they're the only proc working against a cap.

Edit: Seems like I got it to work.
Edit2: See sim thread for download.

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 08/10/09 at 12:04 AM.


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