Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died - Page 21

plopinou · 06/24/09, 7:40 PM

So this is even worse... hmm better ! If your already do the same dps as rogues or ferals, then with those changes you will be above them.
That's why i believe blizzard will make some changes on ptr that will more or less let blood dps at the current level, which already seems pretty good without the need to buff it over the edge.

Therefore the HS buff may be intended to keep builds like these from happening.

I'm confident in the fact that it is not intended, or blue would have changed his mind really fast after saying they wanted HS to be a situational cleave ability instead of a main attack

Decaying · 06/24/09, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by plopinou

So this is even worse... hmm better ! If your already do the same dps as rogues or ferals, then with those changes you will be above them.
That's why i believe blizzard will make some changes on ptr that will more or less let blood dps at the current level, which already seems pretty good without the need to buff it over the edge.

I'm confident in the fact that it is not intended, or blue would have changed his mind really fast after saying they wanted HS to be a situational cleave ability instead of a main attack

Well - to be fair, the top Rogue/Druid parses for XT25 hard mode are 8K-8.5k dps

Melchior · 06/24/09, 8:09 PM

As it stands, Blood is doing pretty ridiculous damage on the PTR. Some of these numbers have to be adjusted or there is going to be a large single-target discrepancy between Blood and Frost/Unholy (and probably most other DPS classes). The dummy in Acherus (obviously lacking any armor debuffs) I'm throwing 11.5k HS with procs. Needs adjustment.

Veritas17 · 06/25/09, 2:50 AM

I welcome the changes. Though if you step back, the way it would look now is that they wanted blood to be higher single target damage where as frost is the dw spec, and then lastly unholy for all that is aoe. I kind of wish it was like that but regardless, the damage output of blood on the ptr's for me is sitting around 45-4600 depending on what im swapping out gear for.

Im puzzled though at the bloodstrike change. Is it meant to be used as our main single target ability now? I was hitting bloodstrikes for 10.5~11k+ without my buffs all proc'd and 12k+ with. I do see where the boost to bs would be welcome since there already are a number of fights where you'd rather have a better single target strike to use instead of a cleave. That raises the question then why not just make another addendum to a talent to increase bloodstrikes damage x whatever to push it above heartstrike? Anyhow I digress.

Feralkin · 06/25/09, 5:54 AM

Just to help clarify something to do with the BS glyph and what constitutes a snare in a raiding environment.
Bosses are immune to movement impairing effects so Hamstring, Desecration and the likes are not going to constitute a snare because the boss is immune to this effect and the debuff will not land on him.
Now the snare that can land on a boss is anything that reduces his melee attack speed. No boss is immune to that and every single tank class has it.
Warrior = Thunderclap
Druid = Infected Wounds
Paly = Judgements of the Just
DK's = Icy touch.

Now the last one kinda makes all this pointless but i thought i would fill in the blanks. Untalented IT reduces melee and ranged attack speed by 14% for 15 seconds. So basically you will always have this snare on the target between your normal rotations and your MT rotations.

Bonecaller · 06/25/09, 6:07 AM

Originally Posted by Feralkin

Just to help clarify something to do with the BS glyph and what constitutes a snare in a raiding environment.
Bosses are immune to movement impairing effects so Hamstring, Desecration and the likes are not going to constitute a snare because the boss is immune to this effect and the debuff will not land on him.
Now the snare that can land on a boss is anything that reduces his melee attack speed. No boss is immune to that and every single tank class has it.
Warrior = Thunderclap
Druid = Infected Wounds
Paly = Judgements of the Just
DK's = Icy touch.

Now the last one kinda makes all this pointless but i thought i would fill in the blanks. Untalented IT reduces melee and ranged attack speed by 14% for 15 seconds. So basically you will always have this snare on the target between your normal rotations and your MT rotations.

Well, you are completely wrong. Snare means movement reducing, not attack speed.

So from your examples, only infected wounds may work in 3.2.

Desercration may even not work any longer since they splitted the talent into snare and damage component, making bosses supossingly immune to desercration. It wouldnt surprise me, if infected wounds also doesnt snare anymore.

I am pretty sure today that the glyph will be useless, they will change it so long until it is.

Feralkin · 06/25/09, 7:05 AM

My apologies i thought that it worked similar to the mage talent torment the weak. But looking at that it includes the phrase, "snared or slowed targets". Bosses have always been immune to snares (Movement impairing) as far as i know, if there are any that are not immune then they are certainly a very small exception to the rule. That would leave the glyph to only have use in pvp or on certain trash mobs, neither of which matter for this discussion as it is aimed at boss single target dmg.

Alyse · 06/25/09, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by Feralkin

But looking at that it includes the phrase, "snared or slowed targets". Bosses have always been immune to snares (Movement impairing) as far as i know, if there are any that are not immune then they are certainly a very small exception to the rule.

A snare is indeed any effect that impairs the movement of the target. While bosses are generally immune to the actual movement impairing effect of a snare, they can still be afflicted with the snare debuff, allowing players to benefit from the boss being snared. (FFB, frostbolt, slow, desecration, etc...)

Kalitari · 06/25/09, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by plopinou

I'm confident in the fact that it is not intended, or blue would have changed his mind really fast after saying they wanted HS to be a situational cleave ability instead of a main attack

If this is indeed their intention then they will buff Blood Strike untill it indeed does more single-target dps than HS. However, that buffing would happen without the Glyph of Blood Strike. I fully expect them to remove or change the Glyph due to PvP reasons.

As on DRW vs. UB if there is any logic in what they are doing then DRW should do more dps than UB as long as you stay within melee range. However, in mobile fights 50/0/21 would outdo 51/0/20 simply because the ranged DoT effect requires less being-in-range to produce the dps. Already at the moment I am seeing 44/0/27 spec producing more dps than 51/0/20 in fights like Mimiron P1 because my ghoul can keep dpsing when I'm running away from Shock Blast.

zeheres · 06/25/09, 10:18 AM

Anything related to snare effects can be found here.

dr_AllCOM3 · 06/25/09, 11:54 AM

Death Runes are finally fixed. They are used based on their original color, so IT will use a converted F rune first.

richard · 06/25/09, 12:53 PM

What if you have bbDDDD and use HS twice? Will it use UU or UF?

I'm guessing it will still go for UU and leave you with DD that are frost.

Teyrocar · 06/25/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Death Runes are finally fixed. They are used based on their original color, so IT will use a converted F rune first.

Thank God.

Originally Posted by richard

What if you have bbDDDD and use HS twice? Will it use UU or UF?

I'm guessing it will still go for UU and leave you with DD that are frost.

Good point, seems like this would still be an issue.

Lujaar · 06/25/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Feralkin

Bosses are immune to movement impairing effects so Hamstring, Desecration and the likes are not going to constitute a snare because the boss is immune to this effect and the debuff will not land on him.
Now the snare that can land on a boss is anything that reduces his melee attack speed. No boss is immune to that and every single tank class has it.
Warrior = Thunderclap
Druid = Infected Wounds
Paly = Judgements of the Just
DK's = Icy touch.

That's the Torment of the Weak mechanic. Torment of the Weak is the mage equivalent of the blood strike glyph, and it was changed in 3.08 to work off attack speed debuffs in addition to snares. Glyph of blood strike never changed; it's still snares only. I did some quick tests yesterday (on live) and the blood strike glyph does not work off frost fever.

The only things that trigger the glyph on raid bosses are snare debuffs that also do something else, so that the debuff goes up even though the boss is immune to snares.

Infected Wounds
Icy Touch w/ Chillblains
Frostfire Bolt

I've probably missed one or two, but the point is it's a short list and none of them are things you can count on to be up.

On a semi-related topic, deathknight Q&A is up and GC mentioned the blood strike change. MMO-champ bluetracker link:

We are considering shifting some of the damage from Scourge Strike and Frost Strike into Blood Strike, which still hits for fairly paltry amounts for Frost and Unholy.

It looks the the BS change is aimed at frost/unholy. The devs may have just not looked at how it impacts blood yet, so all this discussion about using BS over HS may be premature.

• frmorrison · 06/25/09, 5:41 PM

Any glyph can be changed on this PTR, nothing is protected from changes.

Blizzard does PTR on an iterative process, so it seems they are working on DW Frost now, so later they will worry about UB not working and HS vs. BS usage. There is still two months until a possible release.

The goal is Blood, Unholy, and DW Frost to be deal about the same dps.