Hi guys.
One thing i've been thinking for a while.
i have this trinket and Wrathstone, wich leaves me for a maximum of ~442 passive Arp left not to go beyond the cap when it activates. Raid buffed i have around 6500 AP and ~40% crit.
wouldn't be better to switch to greatness+wrathstone, so i can go beyond the "passive" Arp cap? or maybe greatness+Death's Verdict.
thanks
Hello everyone. Been reading the EJ forums for a long time, but this is my first post. After 3.2, I've been messing around with specs, and after taking the advice of EJ posters, I used the DKSim to see what spec would net me the most dps now.
Blood ended up winning easily. So now I've made the switch, and am an official Blood Knight
Anyway, I've been running this spec for the past several days, and I must say that I like it. I've tried blood in the past, but I don't think my gear was good enough. Now my gear is no where near most everyone else here, but it has come to a point to where it is allows me to gain more dps with blood than unholy.
I'm using the standard IT>PS>HSx2>DS>Dump>>DS>HSx4 rotation. I've got it memorized like my old unholy rotation, so my I'm good to go there.
However, I am having a bit of a problem with DRW. It's not really a problem per se, but I don't think I'm using it optimally. I read the DRW info on the OP, but I'm still having trouble fitting it in nicely with my rotation.
So I'm asking if anyone can post a sample rotation that includes DRW within it. Again, I've got the basics of blood down now, but I'm looking for that extra bit to push me into higher dps ranges. And I know using DRW optimally is a big part of that.
@ Testament: Proper use of DRW is not something that can be explained in a simple rotation. The right time to use DRW is situational, and heavily influenced by guild strategy and boss fight.
Take for example XT. I run with a casual guild, and for the most part it will take us at least 90 seconds to get XT to 75%. As such, I "force" out a DRW as soon as I hit 60 runic power when the fight starts, because I know it'll be up again in time for when I really need the burst (plus the first heart is when we burn Hero etc). Now if we got to the first heart phase a lot faster (like more hardcore guilds) I would not pop that first DRW and save it for the first heart instead.
As a general rule of thumb, you should have a understanding of the fight you are engaging in, and understand when in the fight you want to be able to DRW. As this time approaches, you want to start watching for procs, time before your diseases drop off, and other random variables.
I'd like to expand this further, so I welcome some more comments. Now that the glyph of disease has been fixed and that disease damage has been increased in 3.2 modifying your rotation to allowing rolling diseases can provide a solid boost to your dps boost. The theory here is that if you can apply your diseases when you have procs up (Greatness, FC, etc.) the disease damage will be higher, and using glyph of disease you can keep them applied at this higher rate, the longer you can maintain them the higher the overall dps increase.
Since you will typically get a Greatness/FC proc at the beginning of a fight, one solution would be to modify your open rotation to start with DS, and then apply your diseases with the procs up. Since it is currently correct to apply diseases with your DRW up, you would want to try to roll your diseases until the first time you DRW, at which time you would use Hysteria in conjunction with your procs. This would be the level at which you would want to maintain your diseases for the rest of the fight.
If you have any figures on this topic please PM them to me, and I will be doing some additional research in the coming weeks.
Okay, so I swapped out my glyph of DD for Disease, but I'm utterly confused on how to execute rolling diseases.
So, if I understand the description correctly, my starting rotation would be DS>IT>PS>HS>HS>Dump>DS>HSx4. So first, is that correct? Now, where does Pestilence fit in? Right now, my rotation is so tight, that any disruption will cause my diseases to fall off before I get my 3rd or 4th HS in. So, in addition to now really having time to do Pest, where am I gonna get the blood rune to cast it? I could BT, but wouldn't that mess up my next rotation?
- edit: Yeah, I just did some testing on a target dummy, and I can't seem to find room for Pest. I even tried replacing the 4th HS at the end of my rotation for Pest, but my FF is running out just before my GCD ends. Anyone find a working rotation to roll diseases with? And this was with 85 ms, so I don't think latency is the issue. Will I be forced to put 2/2 Epidemic to get this working?
Last edited by testament0221 : 08/12/09 at 4:51 PM.
Okay, so I swapped out my glyph of DD for Disease, but I'm utterly confused on how to execute rolling diseases.
So, if I understand the description correctly, my starting rotation would be DS>IT>PS>HS>HS>Dump>DS>HSx4. So first, is that correct? Now, where does Pestilence fit in? Right now, my rotation is so tight, that any disruption will cause my diseases to fall off before I get my 3rd or 4th HS in. So, in addition to now really having time to do Pest, where am I gonna get the blood rune to cast it? I could BT, but wouldn't that mess up my next rotation?
- edit: Yeah, I just did some testing on a target dummy, and I can't seem to find room for Pest. I even tried replacing the 4th HS at the end of my rotation for Pest, but my FF is running out just before my GCD ends. Anyone find a working rotation to roll diseases with? And this was with 85 ms, so I don't think latency is the issue. Will I be forced to put 2/2 Epidemic to get this working?
If your diseases are dropping off before your 4th HS, shouldn't you Pest instead of your third HS then?
If your diseases are dropping off before your 4th HS, shouldn't you Pest instead of your third HS then?
An alternative to that would be adjusting the spec to increase diseases durations. I don't know though, these solutions both seem to patently obvious that they couldn't possibly work...
Okay, so I swapped out my glyph of DD for Disease, but I'm utterly confused on how to execute rolling diseases.
So, if I understand the description correctly, my starting rotation would be DS>IT>PS>HS>HS>Dump>DS>HSx4. So first, is that correct? Now, where does Pestilence fit in? Right now, my rotation is so tight, that any disruption will cause my diseases to fall off before I get my 3rd or 4th HS in. So, in addition to now really having time to do Pest, where am I gonna get the blood rune to cast it? I could BT, but wouldn't that mess up my next rotation?
- edit: Yeah, I just did some testing on a target dummy, and I can't seem to find room for Pest. I even tried replacing the 4th HS at the end of my rotation for Pest, but my FF is running out just before my GCD ends. Anyone find a working rotation to roll diseases with? And this was with 85 ms, so I don't think latency is the issue. Will I be forced to put 2/2 Epidemic to get this working?
Yes, I tried doing that, but I'm still running into my diseases falling off. It's possible that I'm just not used to it yet. Was hoping someone that's mastered the process could comment on what I'm obviously doing wrong here.
Ok, looking at the WWS of last nights Ulduar run I've noticed some intriguing things. First off it seems that, with a well geared enhancement shaman and a hunter that I am wondering about the possibility of a 48 / 0 / 23 spec where you take the perma-ghoul from the Unholy tree.
The ultimate things that you would be losing in this, assuming you have the enhance and TSA from the Hunter would be 2% strength, and the ability to DRW.
Im curious, exactly what the numbers are of DRW + 2% strength in terms of overall DPS. Is a loss in 2% strength going to mean a 2% loss in overall damage? Can the perma-ghoul in this spec make up for the loss of Abom's Might, and DRW?? I'll probably run a few tests this week and the weekend and see but if anyone has thoughts on this I'd love to hear them.
I'm working through some more updates of the OP, and added the section on Rolling Diseases. Since I didn't use GoDisease myself prior to 3.2 I don't have a lot of personal experience to add to the discussion, only the theory behind it. I'll do some more testing in the upcoming weeks, but I wanted to get some information out there and let any community members who had some good information add to the discussion.
As far as the Glyph of Disease vs Glyph of Dark Death is concerned, the actual change in your DC dmg comes out with Dark Death about 5% ahead. This is due to the fact that (previously stated in this thread) that more HS gives more Sudden Doom procs. So you need the benefit from HS over IT+PS to overcome that gap, which it should fairly easily.
Last edited by Soilantgreen64 : 08/12/09 at 5:37 PM.
Ok, looking at the WWS of last nights Ulduar run I've noticed some intriguing things. First off it seems that, with a well geared enhancement shaman and a hunter that I am wondering about the possibility of a 48 / 0 / 23 spec where you take the perma-ghoul from the Unholy tree.
The ultimate things that you would be losing in this, assuming you have the enhance and TSA from the Hunter would be 2% strength, and the ability to DRW.
Im curious, exactly what the numbers are of DRW + 2% strength in terms of overall DPS. Is a loss in 2% strength going to mean a 2% loss in overall damage? Can the perma-ghoul in this spec make up for the loss of Abom's Might, and DRW?? I'll probably run a few tests this week and the weekend and see but if anyone has thoughts on this I'd love to hear them.
In order to get perma ghoul u'd need 26 pts not 23. Also you'd need to put pts into abom's might anyway just to go deep into the blood tree. In order to get perma ghoul you'd need to sacrafice not abom's might but blood gorged which is 10% dmg and 10% arp. Now the question is 10% dmg and 10% arp and drw better than perma ghoul and necrosis and ub
GoDisease is only really beneficial with 2/2 Epidemic. The rotations to make it work without will cause you to lose the extra Heart Strikes, which are the entire purpose of using the glyph as blood. The math done about using GoDisease assumed taking 1 point from Morbidity to get 2/2 Epidemic.
This is from a couple pages back, but it's come up a couple times now with no answer, so...
Sigil of Virulence does not proc off deathstrike. The item does exactly what the tooltip says it does.
Well, that or I'm spectacularly unlucky, the tests were quick and dirty because I had a raid to go to and wanted to sell the item back before the two hours ran out. Nonetheless, no procs from deathstrike, but every time I pressed oblit the proc went up instantly.
Something that I have been contemplating, and am in the middle of testing, is getting a Blood build using Obliterate back in the works again. This has been in my mind ever since viewing the new Sigil, and I'm not really quite sure how it would hold up.
The big thing about it is that we'd be using Obliterate to basically keep the sigil proc up 100% of the time. Given there is no internal cool down on the sigil, I could see it potentially being a big boost to Blood over any other spec. Problem being, as stated above, Death Strike is not listed or counted on the Sigil.
The build I'd be looking at for Obliterate would be:
Biggest issue I really see is losing BcB and Necrosis, along with Morbidity and Ravenous dead. I'm not sure if that would balance out with the gain of 200 static str and Oblit's higher damage, along with a higher frost disease damage, with a net loss of 5% to DC.
Has anyone tested anything out on this? I've been trying to go over it, but I'm just honestly no good at the math involved for such a thing. About to test it out as my offspec, and I'll try and report the results.
Oblit isn't on Might of Mograine, so you'd be seeing 45% less damage on crits from what you would be with DS. Fully talented and glyphed DS does more damage than oblit. Also, blood uses its UF rune attacks less than frost/unholy, so we'd actually have less chances to proc it per-rotation. I havent done the math, but just the lack of MoM makes me think it wouldnt be worth it.
Pulling in a OB at the end of the rotation (untalented/unglyphed) to keep up the static 200 STR from the Sigil. If I'm not mistaken, the Sigil has a 20s uptime, and would almost always proc.
This would be with the same general 51/0/20 spec.
So the rotation would be something along the lines of:
IT PS HS HS DS ---- DS HS HS OB Dump
Personally, I often run into a time issue with my RP dumps, and I'll blame it on latency, but it could also just be human error. Losing 2x HS and Gaining 1x OB and an extra GCD for DC and holding onto +200 str.
Just thoughts, I am not good with the sims yet (just downloaded and trying to make them work how I want them to) else I'd have more concrete data.
But in all honesty, really looking like bonus to DC damage along with 2x HS will probably still take the cake. I'm just not happy that the new Sigil overlooks Blood DK's and am trying to figure out if it is viable to use.
Assuming that you DS twice in 20 seconds you have a (1-(.2*.2))96% chance of applying it between those 2. Since the buff lasts 20 seconds the uptime should be about 96% under ideal circumstances.
With Vengeful Heart simming at only 80 STR this would mean Virulence would be a large upgrade for blood. Just not enough to overcame the loss of NotD 5% DC damage about 8% total damage, 60% more ghoul scaling, and 3% STR.
While the buff from the new sigil is nice, it is not worth speccing into an inferior tree.
How about using the following roation (assuming a standard 51 0 20 spec)
1) PS IT HS HS DS Dump (only at the start)
2) DS HS HS OB Dump (OB is used on two Death runes)
3) PS IT HS HS HS HS Dump (in standard Rotation, you would have to OB/DS here, in this case, you can use two Death runes for HS HS)
goto 2)
Note that you are only swapping HS HS and OB in the rotation and are still using the same attacks in a rotation.
As you are only doing an Obliterate just before your Diseases are about to run out anyway, you do not have to spec for Annihilation, as it would only gain you one disease tick.
It remains the question, if the Damage gained from the average sigil buff uptime is superior to the damage loss of using one OB instead of a DS in your rotation.
Edit: Of course, this would only work, if you are not using Glyph of Pestilence.
It seems they may not want Blood to use the new Sigil because of our 2pc T9 bonus. Being that it should see more uptime with Blood than UH or Frost. Thats just speculation though, I think they still intend for Vengeful Heart to be Bloods sigil of choice for the time being.
It seems they may not want Blood to use the new Sigil because of our 2pc T9 bonus. Being that it should see more uptime with Blood than UH or Frost. Thats just speculation though, I think they still intend for Vengeful Heart to be Bloods sigil of choice for the time being.
The 2p T9-bonus also proccs from BS and we yet dont know, how much internal cooldown it has. Assuming it works like the sigil, we won't see blood benefit a lot more. Perhaps nearly 100% Uptime for Blood and 80% for Frost/Unholy.
If it has a longer internal cooldown like 45 seconds, we wont see blood benefitting more at all.
And you have to consider: Unholy and Frost benefit more from the 4p bonus, so it might work out pretty well overall for all speccs with the set bonuses. The new sigil is now worthless for blood and there wont be any other sigil in the colosseum. This can't be working as intended.
Along the lines of trying to use the new [Sigil of Virulence] with the standard 51/0/20 spec i switched up the rotation slightly to optimize it
OB>IT>PS>HS>HS> DC
HS>HS>DS>HS>HS > DC
Using the simulator set to setstat2 and changing the rotation i was able to gain around 80-90 dps upgrade from using the standard rotation with [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]
Also since the setstat2 only has 300 arm pen set in it if you raise it to about 500 which my current char is sitting at you see about a 200-300 dps difference between the two sigils and rotations.
I'm new to using the program but if someone can try and mimic the results i'm fairly sure this would overall do more dps now.
sing the simulator set to setstat2 and changing the rotation i was able to gain around 80-90 dps upgrade from using the standard rotation with [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart]
I tried this and got lower dps. Also using a fixed rotation is lower dps anyways, a priority alone results in 100dps more.
Something else: I played with Blood EP in the sim. The only way to make Arp better than Str was to not use a trinket and get 1000+ passive Arp (i.e. not very realistic). Is that because of the buffed diseases and slightly more rp for DC?
I calculated Blood stat values using Kahorie's DK Simulator. I didn't used EP but normal simulations and manual calculations. Gear used was ilvl245 quality - base stats were: 255.7 dps, 3.6 speed, 2000 str, 150 agi, 14000 armor, 250 ap, 263 hit, 900 crit, 100 haste, 500 arp, 155 exp, Vengeful sigil.
Everything seems to be looking all right besides haste value - little too high in my opinion. 2xT9 is obviously quite awesome and I would expect some kind of internal cooldown incoming.
Treat numbers above only as general direction until someone count them more properly.
Short:
- Cap Hit+Exp
- Arp is a little bit better than Str when stacked/procced and rises with the dps of your weapon
Nothing new, proceed to gear as usual.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Fugazor
2xT9 is obviously quite awesome and I would expect some kind of internal cooldown incoming.
Just found out, that 2T9 proc isn't even modified in the sim. It should be even better. Let's see what else I'll find .
Any word on the 4T9 bonus Doc? I've been trying to put together an ilvl 245 gear set and although the T9 shoulders are a clear winner and the chest is a clear loser, the head/gloves/legs are slightly inferior to their offset counterparts but depending on the bonus they could pull ahead. I'm still trying to figure out what the best candidate for 2T9 is. I'm thinking shoulders+helm because of the expertise and the possibility of upgrading to 258.
Also, what's the verdict on having 600/700 or more arpen and going over 100% with trinkets procced? Does arpen EP go down or not?
I've been trying to figure this out with the simulator but the results are often very contradicting so I don't trust it really that much. The last EP calculation I've tried (500 hours) showed haste worth 2x as STR...
08/11/09, 3:49 PM
.
Similar Threads
