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08/19/09, 6:27 PM
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#556
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Piston Honda
Orc Death Knight
Dethecus
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Originally Posted by Teyrocar
I get the same results, DRW at around 5%. I tested out 50/0/21 when we did Jaraxxus tonight, I might have a better parse comparison later but for now it's only good test I have. This was the original raid with 51/0/20, and this was the new raid with 50/0/21 w/GoDisease. I'm still getting used to the glyph so I screwed it up a couple times, but the results seemed interesting. I had identical gear and DPS uptime for both, and it appears I also had the same raid buffs. From the logs it looks like I was able to pull out 100-200 more DPS. However, looking at UB damage vs. DRW damage, UB did 31k whereas DRW did 87k (assuming WoL tracks UB damage correctly, my Death Coils seemed to be hitting harder from the logs). The results were similar on other parses.
To me it appears DRW is superior (unless maybe you do what halfpint suggested and try a 44 build), although if I go back to 51/0/20 I need to figure out which glyph to ditch, and then I wonder if the damage loss from one of the three glyphs will exceed the disparity between DRW and UB damage. Keep in mind that DRW has the added benefit of providing controlled burst when needed, whereas UB does not.
[edit] Rawr seems to think that 51/0/20 would be better even with sacrificing GoDD, so I'm going to test that next.
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Your logs were, well, interesting. In the 51/0/20 fight you cast IT 14 times, and PS 7 times. This is in comparison to the 50/0/21 log where you cast each 4 times. It wasnt exactly clear to me if you were using the same glyphs for both builds, if you were, that would be 1 problem to begin with. 51/0/20 would use Disease, DS, and DRW glyphs, and 50/0/21 would use Death, DS, and Disease. The other difference was the 50/0/21 had 10% higher uptime on Unholy Strength. Things to consider.
[e]: Hits/Crits seperate in logs, I'm dumb. Well one IT didn't hit so at least there's that difference.
Last edited by Soilantgreen64 : 08/20/09 at 11:06 AM.
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08/19/09, 7:44 PM
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#557
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Echo Isles
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Originally Posted by Soilantgreen64
Your logs were, well, interesting. In the 51/0/20 fight you cast IT 14 times, and PS 7 times. This is in comparison to the 50/0/21 log where you cast each 4 times. It wasnt exactly clear to me if you were using the same glyphs for both builds, if you were, that would be 1 problem to begin with. 51/0/20 would use Disease, DS, and DRW glyphs, and 50/0/21 would use Death, DS, and Disease. The other difference was the 50/0/21 had 10% higher uptime on Unholy Strength. Things to consider.
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He nailed it completely- while ingame tests are always great, they aren't the proper way to figure out which spec can put out the most theoretical dps. This will throttle you based on latency, timing, random factors of the fight (For Jaraxxus, did you get Legion Flame one time and not the other, etc) and sometimes just a plain bad day where you aren't up to par.
To be honest 1-200 dps difference to me is well within the realm of just normal disparity on a boss, it isn't a clear runaway winner.
Another thought I have had- With the change in some peoples rotations to take advantage of the Sigil of Virulence, Obliterate is being used much more often. I have been seeing on my recount breakdowns, that on average OB is about 5% of my total dps. Compared to this, Death Coil is usually between 10-13% of my overall damage. Is there a possibility as we advance into 245+ gear (I just got Justicebringer last night, would like to see how this alters the DC/OB relationship) that the value of OB glyph will outweigh the Dark Death Glyph?
Just using rough numbers of 5 and 10% for OB and DC, you get a 1% dps increase via OB glyph, and 1.5% dps increase with the DD glyph. More gear with more str and ArP and higher Weapon DPS will obviously lean more towards increasing strike dps faster than DC dps, so it may be something to consider.
Where the inflection point is is the real question.
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08/19/09, 8:59 PM
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#558
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Great Tiger
Orc Death Knight
Blutkessel (EU)
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I've tried to make a BiS set for Blood. I gathered the items in my sheet and created a rough set. My main question was: Is Arp worth stacking or not? So I tried to stack it without taking too many items with AP. So with 85% Arp I got this result (the other stats weren't interesting):
| EP:50 | Strength | 284 | | EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 394 |
As a reference I created a set by taking the best items and stacking Str. I added an Arp proc trinket and got with 43% (100% procced):
| EP:50 | Strength | 285 | | EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 320 |
Summary: Arp seems to scale very well.
I'm curious about your thoughts and especially results.
(In the simulator, go to the EP options and just check Str+Arp. That makes it a lot faster.)
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08/20/09, 2:58 AM
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#559
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
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Oh yes, one little point. My earlier testing where 50/0/21 was slightly better than 51/0/20 had following glyphs:
50/0/21 Death Strike, Dark Death, Unholy Blight
51/0/20 Death Strike, Dark Death, Dancing Rune Weapon
This would explain why my Deathcoils account for massive 13% of my damage and Unholy Blight for yet another 3%. If I'd lose Dark Death and replace it with Disease the rotation might actually shift enough to favor DRW over UB... Hmmm... I think I'll have to test THAT next time.
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08/20/09, 8:29 AM
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#560
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Bloodhoof
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Originally Posted by Soilantgreen64
Your logs were, well, interesting. In the 51/0/20 fight you cast IT 14 times, and PS 7 times.
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Not sure why WoL likes to tell me I cast IT so many times, since I'm 99% sure I never cast one more than the other.
He nailed it completely- while ingame tests are always great, they aren't the proper way to figure out which spec can put out the most theoretical dps. This will throttle you based on latency, timing, random factors of the fight (For Jaraxxus, did you get Legion Flame one time and not the other, etc) and sometimes just a plain bad day where you aren't up to par.
To be honest 1-200 dps difference to me is well within the realm of just normal disparity on a boss, it isn't a clear runaway winner.
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I realize that, which is why I deferred to the bonus of DRW being a controlled burst when needed, which IMO is very useful for a lot of fights.
I've since been trying to get the DK Simulator to parse out the different spec and glyph options for my gear, but I don't know if it still calculates GoDisease completely accurately.
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08/20/09, 10:35 AM
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#561
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Death Knight
Hellscream
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Originally Posted by Teyrocar
I realize that, which is why I deferred to the bonus of DRW being a controlled burst when needed, which IMO is very useful for a lot of fights.
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Which is the reason at least for myself personally I won't ever be running a UB based spec, the utility of having so many powerful burst CD's that can be popped at once is what sets blood apart from the other two DK specs and makes it really powerful in a lot of hard modes.
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08/20/09, 10:53 AM
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#562
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Teyrocar
Not sure why WoL likes to tell me I cast IT so many times, since I'm 99% sure I never cast one more than the other.
I realize that, which is why I deferred to the bonus of DRW being a controlled burst when needed, which IMO is very useful for a lot of fights.
I've since been trying to get the DK Simulator to parse out the different spec and glyph options for my gear, but I don't know if it still calculates GoDisease completely accurately.
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Well, you really didn't cast IT more. In the first log, you did hit with both 4 times. You also crit with both 3 times. In the second log, PS hit 7 times, crit 8 times, and was blocked once, totaling 16. Your IT hit 14 times, and crit 2 times, totaling 16.
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08/25/09, 11:00 AM
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#563
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Glass Joe
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So, here is what I found for blood DPS.
Droping GoDark Death and replacing it with GoDisease was a signifigant increase. I ran with different variations and Saw a 500-1k dps increase by throwing a pest at the end of the rotation and using 1 rune rather then throwing the dots back up. The increased dot damage makes it much higher priority then it was before. Then it becomes sort of a priority rotation. Pest > HS > DS ~ DC once around 80 RP. With this rotation, Sigil of Death Strike might be more beneficial as you're hitting it twice as much as before. Haven't done the math yet.
Also, the beneifit of going GoDisease is an extra Deathstrike and the ability to Heart Strike up to 6 times. I was thinking about doing this before the patch just because of the extra strikes = more dps then IT/PS.. but the dots were less damage.
Also, I've noticed a HUGE Difference with a 20 ARP increase...perhaps i've hit some sort of curve with my ArP but im wondering if gemming ArP would ever be beneficial? I would test it, but that's an expensive fix =x
Last edited by el-es-dee : 08/25/09 at 11:12 AM.
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08/25/09, 12:11 PM
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#564
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Don Flamenco
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How does GoDisease give an extra DS?
Without the glyph the rotation would be:
PS IT HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS HS
for 6xHS 2xDS PS and IT
With the glyph the rotation would be:
First time:
PS IT HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS P
Nth time:
HS HS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS P
for 7xHS 2xDS 1xP
So what's really happening is PS and IT are being traded for P and HS. There are no additional DS to be gained.
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My vanity is justified.
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08/25/09, 12:31 PM
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#565
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Glass Joe
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You're constantly hitting Pest on a blood rune if you do it right and instead of hitting IT/PS/DS you're hitting a DS/DS every time. You never hit IT PS so there is more DS over time. I Was refering to the over all rotation once you get your diseases up. It's a very big DPS increase.
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08/25/09, 1:16 PM
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#566
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Don Flamenco
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That doesn't make any sense.
Let's look at a full rotation's available runes:
4xUnholy
4xFrost
4xBlood
Now with 2 DS, the number in the standard rotation, a full rotation's available runes becomes:
2xUnholy
2xFrost
4xBlood
4xDeath
This means that 2xDS is the maximum number of DS that can be cast in a rotation before death runes are used on death strike which is a DPS loss. GoDisease changes nothing about this fact and it should be obvious from the standard rotation that PS and IT are being used on death runes. When diseases don't have to be reapplied these runes are treated like any other death rune, as BS fodder.
So no, IT/PS/DS is not DS/DS every time with the glyph it's actually BS/P/DS. You gain rolling diseases and one BS and you loose IT, PS, and a major glyph.
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My vanity is justified.
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08/25/09, 1:20 PM
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#567
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Don Flamenco
Blood Elf Death Knight
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by el-es-dee
You're constantly hitting Pest on a blood rune if you do it right and instead of hitting IT/PS/DS you're hitting a DS/DS every time. You never hit IT PS so there is more DS over time. I Was refering to the over all rotation once you get your diseases up. It's a very big DPS increase.
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You forget that the runes you use for IT and PS are 2 death runes, so instead of a DS you use 2x HS to replace them.
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08/25/09, 1:24 PM
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#568
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Don Flamenco
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Technically you loose a HS somewhere in the rotation to cast Pest so it's better to think, in terms of net changes, that IT and PS are being replaced with HS and Pest.
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My vanity is justified.
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08/25/09, 3:02 PM
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#569
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Glass Joe
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It's not a set rotation every time cuz it's not IT PS and you're consuming 2 bloods over 1 unholy 1 frost. Just try it, you will know what i mean, it ends up being a priority queue type of system. Especialy when you empower. Also depends on your disease times as well. IT's very easy to manage with magic runes mod.
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08/25/09, 3:10 PM
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#570
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Dalaran
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I ran the simulator with the 51/0/20 blood spec (1/2 epidemic, 3/3 morbidity), blood priority, 2h Ulduar.xml file, etc etc just to generate some numbers to use to calculate the gains and losses of GoD and GoDD. Per rotation, based on runic power generation, you can do about 2.6 death coils.
GoDD: (glyph of dark death)
ITx1 = 1,965.0 dmg
PSx1 = 2,836.1 dmg
DCx2.6 = 13,982.8 dmg
total: 18,783.9 dmg
GoD: (glyph of disease)
Pestx1 = 0 dmg
HSx1 = 6,086.4 dmg
DCx2.6 = 11652.3 dmg (remember 15% less because you lose GoDD, GoD spec is 2/2 epidemic but 2/3 morbidity, so an additional 5% off 13,982.8/1.20 = 11652.3 [someone double-check if this is the right way to calculate that])
now adding the chance to proc a DC
11652.3/2.6 = 4481.7 dmg per DC
4481.7*0.15 = 672.3 dmg
total: 18411.0 dmg
However, I can't really take into account the effect of rolling disease, which would help GoD. I guess I could take the number of avg disease ticks per rotation from the simulator and total those up for GoDD, then guestimate or find the max disease ticks, which would represent the GoD when rolling with maximum trinket/FC procs. I also don't think the simulator accurately uses GoD, so that's why I couldn't just plug both specs into the simulator and run both to figure out which was higher on a whole cycle.
[edit, final remarks]
I do have experience in using GoD in a frost rotation, and it isn't as hard as one would think to keep diseases rolling from when you had the highest possible AP. I have a trinket's AP proc and FC up together often and early enough into the fight to keep them on the target for many cycles. So unless there's something else we are missing, once again it probably does come down to personal preference as Soilantgreen64 mentioned below.
Last edited by Meygaera : 08/25/09 at 4:54 PM.
Reason: Soilantgreen64 and tetracycloide's remarks, had to fix numbers
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