Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died - Page 39

Soilantgreen64 · 08/25/09, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by el-es-dee

It's not a set rotation every time cuz it's not IT PS and you're consuming 2 bloods over 1 unholy 1 frost. Just try it, you will know what i mean, it ends up being a priority queue type of system. Especialy when you empower. Also depends on your disease times as well. IT's very easy to manage with magic runes mod.

It is a set rotation still.

No Glyph
(1)
IT PS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS HS
repeat (1)

With Glyph of Disease
(1)
IT PS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS Pest
(2)
HS HS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS Pest
repeat (2)

[e] @ the post above me, you need 2/2 epidemic for GoDisease, using the same spec for both glyphs would bias your results towards GoDD. You should be running 2/2 epi + 2/3 morb with GoDisease vs 1/2 epi + 3/3 morb with GoDD.

Meygaera · 08/25/09, 4:02 PM

I don't see how it would favor GoDD spec. If GoD uses 2/2 epidemic then it would lose a point in morbidity and its DC damage should actually be lower in my calculations, thus favoring GoDD even more. However, if I take into account the additional disease tick from BP and FF that would be gained from 2/2 epidemic, GoD's calculations would surpass GoDD. But then I would need to take into account GoDD being a faster rotation...and then I think I just lost myself right there. I could probably just use a 2/2 epidemic 2/3 morbidity with GoDD and use the simulator to get a different set of numbers. I think that would still prove GoDD to be higher than GoD still.

tetracycloide · 08/25/09, 4:30 PM

Where in your calculations do you account for the extra percentage of a DC that's added via sudden doom by HSing one additional time? It doesn't look like they take rolling diseases into account either but that's a very difficult thing to do anyway. It would be interesting to know if there is a BP in proc or on use abilities that makes rolling diseases worth glyphing for even ignoring the HS vs IT+PS portion of the equation.

Soilantgreen64 · 08/25/09, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

Where in your calculations do you account for the extra percentage of a DC that's added via sudden doom by HSing one additional time? It doesn't look like they take rolling diseases into account either but that's a very difficult thing to do anyway. It would be interesting to know if there is a BP in proc or on use abilities that makes rolling diseases worth glyphing for even ignoring the HS vs IT+PS portion of the equation.

I tossed my spreadsheet on this, but the extra DC procs from Sudden Doom are very significant, much more so then people tend to realize. They come very close to (if not slightly exceeding) the damage provided by the GoDD. In combination, the damage gained from HS over IT+PS (remember your still get the disease dmg, so it just a comparison of strike damage) along with the extra SD procs, gives GoDisease the edge.

[e]: There was a pretty good post about the rolling diseases that showed it would take something like 3 or 4 cycles for the damage gained from rolling diseases to start to catch up to the GoDD damage. Part of the problem evaluating GoDisease properly is there are so many variables to take into consideration, and people usually fudge one or two.

[ex2]: The 4 pc tier 9 bonus will make GoDisease even better.

Meygaera · 08/26/09, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Fajr

Hey Tetracycloide, I've been practicing the rotation:

IT PS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS Pest
(2)
HS HS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS Pest
repeat (2)

And i'm having problems Dumping RP, sometimes i see my self having topped my RP and no room to dump it.
Any lights here plz?

Well the rotation's dump phases should still show up in the same spots as the standard blood rotation, which is between your death strikes, and at the end of the rotation. The rotation (2) still has the exact same number of GCD's as well, so the openings for DC/ghoul/HoW etc should be the same, unless your GCD's are getting eaten by misses/dodges.

Should look like this then:

(1)
IT PS HS HS DS DUMP DS HS HS HS PEST DUMP

(2)
HS HS HS HS DS DUMP DS HS HS HS PEST DUMP

Valtiel · 08/27/09, 7:07 AM

I don't run a GoDisease rotation at the moment, but when I did, the best approach I foundt was handling it as a priority system.

8 over 12 of the runes you will see during a disease cycle can be used to refresh Pestilence. Once you know that, your "rotation" becomes U/F > DS and B/D > HS or Pest depending on the expiration time of diseases. It's a lot easier than most other rotations and it makes timing the Pestilence almost irrelevant in terms of dps (you need to miss 10 shifts by at least 2 seconds to lose a single HS due to not using the full disease uptime).

Orothar · 08/27/09, 11:28 AM

Doing some calculations on Arp I got some results I didnt expect. I always thought the Arp softcap was somewhere around 444 rating, but now it seems its around 567 Rating. Please corerct me if I'm wrong:

The Arp Hard-cap is 90%, since you get 10% from Blood Gorged. (1109 Rating)
The Arp Softcap comes into play if you have a proc Arp trinket like the Mjolnir runestone. (1109 - 665 = 444)
The Arp Soft-cap is 36% (444 Rating with Mjolnir, 497 with Grim)

As a nice reference, check this site out: Arp Simulator

*Edit: I forgot the 10% from BG. Thnx for mentioning Davorian. I updated the numbers above

tetracycloide · 08/27/09, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

I don't run a GoDisease rotation at the moment, but when I did, the best approach I foundt was handling it as a priority system.

Doesn't the 21 sec duration of the diseases more or less dictate that you P once per rotation no matter what? I suppose if you timed everything perfectly you could pull of using P at the very very end of one rotation, do a full rotation without a P at all, then put a P at the beginning of the next rotation. Where would you go from there though? 1 second isn't enough time for a full GCD so you could never move it from the first rune in the rotation to the second although you could move it back to the end by refreshing early to prime for a burst rotation with 8xHS later I guess. This all seems very tenuous in actual practice though given movement, fight mechanics, and latency.

Davorian · 08/27/09, 11:53 AM

Orothar the soft cap is around 444 rating you are forgetting to include the 10% the blood dks gain from blood gorged.

Meygaera · 08/27/09, 4:53 PM

The ArP soft cap has been bothering me too lately.

Currently it shows me having 515 arp with 41.81% reduced armor in the paperdoll. I'm going to assume that doesn't take BG into account, so I have 51.81% reduction with BG. When Grim Toll procs I look at the paperdoll and it says 1127 armor penetration rating and 91.51% reduction. So with BG thats 101.51%, so if the soft cap is 444 rating that should be exactly 100% with BG and grim toll.

so 101.51% - 100.00% = 1.51% that's how much over the cap I am when grim toll procs. However I'm 71 rating over the theoretical 444 soft cap. According to Wowwiki 12.31 rating = 1% armor pen.

71/12.31 = 5.77% so with BG and grim toll I really should be 105.77% but its only 101.51%.

I probably didn't explain this the best way, but is there some sort of DR with rating or the way BG stacks or something? Because that doesn't seem right.

[edit] Thanks insane_machine. I was under the impression that they used grim toll to get 444 soft cap. I guess I thought they had the same ArP for their procs.

Ok with the new sim version 1.0.7.0 Afabar has made it possible to roll diseases with highest AP. This means that it will recast IT and PS when you have more AP than when you previously cast them. The standard 2h Ulduar gear template didn't have trinkets etc checked. So I went ahead and used my own character's template which uses grim toll and victory for the 1008 AP proc. This was run at 100h, with sigil of the vengeful heart. A few more things, GoD replaced GoDD, in the normal blood spec I went 51/0/20 with 1/2 in epidemic and 3/3 morbidity. (I know some ppl go 1/3 morb and 2/2 NotD, but since I used my gear I decided to use my exact spec). With GoD I went 51/0/20 with 2/2 epidemic and 2/3 morbidity. I noticed that 2/2 Epidemic is required for GoD because I ran it with only 1/2 Epidemic and noticed much much less DPS due to the fact that with 150ms listed in the sim, if you cast IT then PS, at the end of the rotation you're FF would run out before you get pestilence in, thus your BP would be refreshed and you FF would not. This was proven because in the report, it showed IT being recasted 116 times while PS was only 66. I went ahead and changed it to 2/2 epidemic and IT was recast only 22 times while PS was casted 10 times. I guess the same thing happened again, but much less often, the pestilence came late and FF ran out while BP remained. Assuming BP never ever fell off, and was recast 10 times, I believe that means it took 10 instances of procs/FC etc to be up before it reached its peak AP. Now for the results:

standard blood 51/0/20
6837 DPS

GoD blood 51/0/20 (2/2 epidemic)
6881 DPS

GoD pulls through, but barely. Once again, this was done with my character template. I can repeat this using 2h Udluar but there don't appear to be any trinkets being used in the default. I could go ahead and check two in different combination if anyone wants.

[edit] Forgot to mention, my character template has 2pc tier 8 and 2pc tier 9

insane_machine · 08/27/09, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Meygaera

Currently it shows me having 515 arp with 41.81% reduced armor in the paperdoll. I'm going to assume that doesn't take BG into account, so I have 51.81% reduction with BG. When Grim Toll procs I look at the paperdoll and it says 1127 armor penetration rating and 91.51% reduction. So with BG thats 101.51%, so if the soft cap is 444 rating that should be exactly 100% with BG and grim toll.

so 101.51% - 100.00% = 1.51% that's how much over the cap I am when grim toll procs. However I'm 71 rating over the theoretical 444 soft cap. According to Wowwiki 12.31 rating = 1% armor pen.

71/12.31 = 5.77% so with BG and grim toll I really should be 105.77% but its only 101.51%.

I was always under the impression that the 444 soft cap was assuming Mjolnir (665 arpen proc).

1.51% above cap would be ~18 arpen above cap and Grim Toll has 53 less than Mjolnir. So the soft cap for you would be 497 arpen, which is 18 less than 515 and 53 more than 444.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/28/09, 9:00 AM

I just tested GoD with Blood in the simulator. I get a steady 150dps over the standard rotation.
Also:

EP:50	Strength	240
EP:50	ArmorPenetrationRating	388
	Template	Blood 51-0-20 GoD
	Priority	Blood GoD

Arp is almost at the cap with EP included (You get less, if you cap it and don't include EP. It adds 50arp).

Megaera · 08/28/09, 9:36 AM

I'm not sure this is especially interesting, but given Doc's recent work out on the increasing value of Apen on its tail end (getting close to hard cap), I decided to sit down to graph out what would happen if I took a gear set (I used my own; I tanked my way through Ulduar so I'm working with scraps, but I thought it would be serviceable for this sort of test) and then incrementally converted Str into Apen (presumably via regemming). My expected result was that changing the number of gems we typically have control over would have a minimal effect, but if we had the ability to convert stats at will you would see an inflection point somewhere down the line where the increased value of Apen as it approaches cap pulled it ahead of Str even at the reduced AP levels.

Looking at it in broad strokes (converting about 250 pts at a time) the DPS remains nearly constant (at least within the noise of the quick-and-dirty 100hr sims I was running) all the way out to 1100 rating. If the results were more promising I'd generate sims at smaller increments and graph it out, but at first glance it looks like forcing our way to the steeper part of the APen curve via gems isn't going to be profitable, and that my expectation was false.

Doc, would you be interested in taking a similar broad-strokes approach with your more interesting t9-based character sheet? It's possible that my gear baseline is just too low to support this (to convert enough Str to get to the APen cap I'm getting down to 1100ish).

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/28/09, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by Megaera

It's possible that my gear baseline is just too low to support this (to convert enough Str to get to the APen cap I'm getting down to 1100ish).

It only works with a 244dps or higher weapon. Below that there's a minimal difference. Simply converting Str to Arp doesn't work, since Arp always comes with Str. You are forced to have a good amount of Str anyway.
My values were maybe a bit high. I added 50rp/min and for some reason that lowered the Str EP by a good amount.

Megaera · 08/28/09, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

It only works with a 244dps or higher weapon. Below that there's a minimal difference. Simply converting Str to Arp doesn't work, since Arp always comes with Str. You are forced to have a good amount of Str anyway.
My values were maybe a bit high. I added 50rp/min and for some reason that lowered the Str EP by a good amount.

That makes sense. The underlying thought was that we'd always thrown around AP levels at which switching to gem APen might be profitable, but that maybe we should instead be looking for Apen levels at which it makes sense to regem.