I'm wondering if anyone has experienced that [Glyph of Disease] sometimes does not refresh the diseases when you try to refresh it with a Death Rune made from a Unholy Rune or Frost Rune.
I have had this happening a couple of times now in Trial of the Grand Crusade, the Death Rune goes on cool-down but the diseases are not refreshed, resulting in not only wasting a Death Rune but also a "free" Death Strike.
GoD uses Pestilence, which is a spell attack (17% miss rate on a boss). You must have missed.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I could see unholy shifting to Glyph of Icy Touch full time over GoD for ICC, but I don't see blood going back to GoDD. GoD won't shine or stand out nearly as it does currently with ToC(Except for Deathbringer Saurfang, where I suspect it'll be invaluable due to the nature of needing to squeeze out a lot of quick dps on moving adds), but I don't see it being replaced so easily without really having to fight with yourself over which is more powerful.
I think they might be equally as valuable now, and it might just be play style preference as to which is more powerful. For those that like the rigid rotation they'd end up with GoDD, but I think a lot of people enjoy the GoD play style due to it's freedoms and change. If anything, it'll be just that...a preference thing. People have posted numbers supporting both sides, but until there's a firm grip of all the encounters in ICC, I don't feel like 1 will be a clear winner over the other.
A key with GoD that I've never liked over GoDD is that missing a pest can be catastrophic if you're trying to maximize DPS and cut yourself close to the end of your diseases before refreshing, since gearing to spell hitcap is a DPS loss, whereas missing an IT is little more than losing a GCD. The change will probably reduce the penalty of this, but it's still something I've never liked. I've played with both glyphs as blood and unholy and found the non-GoD system was more to my taste, though I use GoD as unholy for anub HM and yogg 0 because it's simply better for those fights in that spec.
Thus far in ICC some fights have "you need to get out" mechanics where you'd have to refresh before getting out then refresh when getting back in. To maximize DPS potential with GoD on such fights you have RNG to consider if you have no procs; weighing rolling diseases with no procs before getting out versus letting them drop after some time then restarting from scratch and trying to get procs you knew were on ICD when getting out, to get buffed diseases/DRW when you get back in. It makes DPSing feel muddled and more dependent on RNG with procs where you'll now be cursing if paragon/greatness both fall off 1 second before you get in melee range to pest again. This may simply be me not enjoying an RNG dependent playstyle (I have a boomkin alt and eclipse can be frustrating at times), but the more rigid rotation has always given me more reliable, consistent DPS.
On add fights (aside from yogg 0) I find it a bit of a dps loss as well as I'd usually pest diseases to the next add when the current add was down to low enough HP that it would die in the next GCD, so that I could finish it off with a DS and have death runes available for spamming HS on the next add. GoDD is more DPS in such situations.
I think the glyph becomes much more situational in ICC than it is now in ToC where it can be used successfully on any fight. In the end barring more mechanics changes I see myself having to bring a stack of each glyph to raids to maximize DPS.
How is GoD after the change any more RNG dependent then not using it? It'd be just as bad if procs fall off before you can IT/PS as it would be if they did before you Pest with GoD. All the change means is that you actually have to worry about your procs less than before since you get much less of a bonus by applying them with procs now since they don't roll. With diseases not rolling missing a pest is far less painful.
Because prior to the change you could usually line all of your procs up at the start of a fight in the first ~10 seconds then roll diseases with all of those procs for the majority of a non-phased fight. ie. on Jaraxxus, Valks, many Ulduar bosses etc. That was a lot of the point of using the glyph was to roll buffed diseases especially with T9 4-piece.
Now T9 4-piece is nerfed as is the glyph. Is the glyph still going to be a DPS increase now, when it was not being demonstrated to be a big DPS increase previously?
All the change means is that you actually have to worry about your procs less than before since you get much less of a bonus by applying them with procs now since they don't roll. With diseases not rolling missing a pest is far less painful.
Except that if you're using GoD and you fail to roll your diseases on any given rotation, it's entirely useless. You're basically playing with two glyphs for that duration instead of three, when you could be using that slot for more damage.
We had this discussion about GoD when it first came out, before it started rolling higher-coefficient diseases. The consensus was that, under optimal conditions, it provides at best a marginally equivalent benefit to GoDD. In any other situation, it is worse, and used improperly it's a waste of a glyph slot entirely. The only reason it has seen more widespread use is the current AP-rolling benefit.
Arguments about "playstyle" or "easier rotations" are generally invalid because both rotations are easy. The fact of the matter in 3.3 is that one of the glyph choices has situations where it becomes a noticeable dps loss versus its alternative which does not. If you really like playing with GoD, the best option might be to carry both glyphs around and use them situationally.
For add fights it's going to be a DPS loss if you are DPSing just adds or lower-health targets (dreamwalker, gunship). For tank and spank fights it would have been a DPS increase if able to roll higher AP diseases, but that is gone along with FF critting, and we're not using GoIT to get increased FF damage either the way unholy is.
Almost none of the ICC fights constitute "optimal conditions" as it were; the glyph should be relegated to use on specific fights. For a fight like saurfang I'd rather just respec unholy instead of swapping out glyphs as unholy with GoD and GoDnD seems like it's going to be immensely superior for that particular fight.
I know some people really like the more loose playstyle that GoD can provide and that's fine, but it seems like using it is going to be a flat-out DPS loss with the changes coming into effect, and testing conducted previously showed using it to be either a wash or a slight DPS gain on particular encounters.. and the factors that made using it a gain are now being nuked.
Incidentally, speaking of dreamwalker, has anyone tested whether mark of blood works on her? It would be funny to apply it to an add then let it damage her, healing her 4% per hit and causing you to win the encounter in a matter of seconds.
Incidentally, speaking of dreamwalker, has anyone tested whether mark of blood works on her? It would be funny to apply it to an add then let it damage her, healing her 4% per hit and causing you to win the encounter in a matter of seconds.
Beacon of Light works, so you should be able to cast Mark. However, I don't know how you could make the adds "hate" Dreamwalker, since players are doing lots of threat activities (at the minimum healing and proximity aggro).
Regarding Blood glyphs, I believe glyph of IT (in 3.3) is more dps than GoDD, in addition it helps with the many AoE fights.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'd like to ask for an advice regarding profession choices. So far in the last year I've been a BS/JC, but lately I'm more & more leaning toward replacing BS with Engineering. The following quote is from the OP, and I would like to ask how valid is still is?
Originally Posted by Soilantgreen64
Engineering
I'll set aside engineering b/c some people just like it, and I can't hold that against them. The only real advantage engineers get are the Hand Mounted Pyro Rockets and Hyperspeed Accellerators. Both of these are solid glove bonuses, and if engineering got anything else, could make it a competitive choice, popping speed pots, bloodlust, and the Hyperspeed Accellerators is a blast.
As far as I remember, some stats have been added to other engineering "enchants" (like crit to the nitro boots) in the past few patches to make the profession slightly more appealing. At the same time, the nitro boots specifically will give us something that we lack - shortening the distance between our enemy & us. As a poster above mentioned, ICC bosses have quite a few "you need to get out" mechanics.
Together with the "perks" you get like pyro rockets & hyperspeed accelerators, would switching to Engineering from BS be as noticeable DPS drop as it used to be before? The ability to swap to a target that is on the other side of the "room" (think Icehowl targetting someone on the opposite side on HC mode where you can't use the speed buff), or that little extra DPS by the hyperspeed accelerators (of course taking into account smart use of the cooldown) - all of this is quite tempting.
And yes, I realize that it's a discussion similar to the discussion of Improved Unholy Presence from way back, in the sense that it's really hard to measure the benefit. But still - would you advise such a change of the profession?
And yes, I realize that it's a discussion similar to the discussion of Improved Unholy Presence from way back, in the sense that it's really hard to measure the benefit. But still - would you advise such a change of the profession?
There is also a 23 agility cloak enchant (1 more than normal) and a clickie on your belt to get free bombs. I vastly prefer 40 strength passive bonus than a clickie glove enchant + rocket boots (again, I prefer the passive run speed on boots).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
To be honest, there are alot of engineering aspects that are quite interesting. However, imo, I dont find you 'coming out ahead' if your switching from an idealistic major profession. Its one thing if your dropping a gathering profession, and determining whether to go BS or Eng, but to switch argueably one of our best professions, for manual situational benefits might be a bit more difficult to justify.
In addition, if i'm not mistaking, are they not changing BS to allow lowering an item budget on one stat, to allow you to increase the budget of another? I was under the impression that this could be done like a chanter enchanting your stats, but tbh, chances are if they do this, that BS's would have a 'larger' benefit.
Personally I think it will come down to a personal preference, because so much is situational with eng chants, it might be a significant change you could potentially regret in the near future.
In addition, if i'm not mistaking, are they not changing BS to allow lowering an item budget on one stat, to allow you to increase the budget of another? I was under the impression that this could be done like a chanter enchanting your stats, but tbh, chances are if they do this, that BS's would have a 'larger' benefit.
That is a 4.0 change. Note not just BS will be able to change stats on items (tailoring and LW too). It is handy to have one of those professions, so you don't have to find someone to modify your items.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Speaking as both a blacksmith and an engineer, no, don't drop smithing for it. The engineering stuff is nice, fun, and convenient, but you'll get more consistent, overall benefit from the extra sockets.
Its not the belt bomb that is cool, its the saronite bombs (1 min cd) in general that should be used every cd on signifficint bossfights that put engineering over other profs :P.
Not sure if you have changed the arp value as of 3.2 since they did change the stat a little bit and didn't feel like finding it through out all the posts made from 3.2 release up to now, but if you haven't it should be equal to about 2.55 attack power from what i calculated.
i was reading some things around other forums about icy talons and bloodworms. I was curious if any testing had been done to even notice if they were influenced.
also i was wondering, is it possible(if so, how) can i actually figure out my bloodworms "up" time. how long they live and such. and do they gain abilities from your self. I do know their health scales with yours but their mana pool does not scale with anything i had noticed.
I did some simulations (1000h).
Haste ended up to be 4.03 vs 2.87 for str.
I'm assuming such a vast difference in expected results comes from the fact that using GoD requires more GCDs than blood rotation in 3.1. What I'm noticing is that I seem to be almost consistently RP capped or with alot of death runes up. Just wondering if this suggests that there is a threshold haste that is required for this GoD rotation (I have 65 haste). Does anyone have similar results?
I did some simulations (1000h).
Haste ended up to be 4.03 vs 2.87 for str.
I'm assuming such a vast difference in expected results comes from the fact that using GoD requires more GCDs than blood rotation in 3.1. What I'm noticing is that I seem to be almost consistently RP capped or with alot of death runes up. Just wondering if this suggests that there is a threshold haste that is required for this GoD rotation (I have 65 haste). Does anyone have similar results?
What parameters in your sims? What gearset? Haste is an increasingly valuable stat for us as our weapon damage is increasing, therefore our white attacks are mirroring if not exceeding the amount of Heart Strike damage we are putting out. But I cant imagine where haste would be valued so much higher on an APE scale than STR. Also, if you are finding yourself with excess RP or Death runes, then you're not using enough Death Coils to reduce that RP, and you should be hammering out more heart strikes with those death runes. Its been noted before that GoD is not rotation based, its a priority system.
What parameters in your sims? What gearset? Haste is an increasingly valuable stat for us as our weapon damage is increasing, therefore our white attacks are mirroring if not exceeding the amount of Heart Strike damage we are putting out. But I cant imagine where haste would be valued so much higher on an APE scale than STR. Also, if you are finding yourself with excess RP or Death runes, then you're not using enough Death Coils to reduce that RP, and you should be hammering out more death strikes with those death runes. Its been noted before that GoD is not rotation based, its a priority system.
I completely agree with the haste appearing super high on his sim, but what concerns me is you saying death striking with death runes. Why would i ever death strike with death runes? It has always been my understanding pretty much only death strike to get your UF runes into death runes* and then heartstrike spam. even then sit on full RP since HS>DC.
That was totally a typo, and should've said Heart Strikes. My bad. And yes, I agree that sitting on RP becomes acceptable. What I was getting at is that there are still times to fire off death coils so you are not using your runes when they are immediatley off cooldown, to make sure you are utilizing that grace period effectivley and not turning and burning too fast.
What parameters in your sims? What gearset? Haste is an increasingly valuable stat for us as our weapon damage is increasing, therefore our white attacks are mirroring if not exceeding the amount of Heart Strike damage we are putting out. But I cant imagine where haste would be valued so much higher on an APE scale than STR. Also, if you are finding yourself with excess RP or Death runes, then you're not using enough Death Coils to reduce that RP, and you should be hammering out more heart strikes with those death runes. Its been noted before that GoD is not rotation based, its a priority system.
Edit: Fixed death strike to heart strike typo.
I cannot, at the moment, provide the exact parameters, as I recently regemmed for unholy.
The approximate value is
str=2250
AP including str =5400
crit=31%
arpen=429 (Using grim toll)
haste=115
Weapon dps=281.7
weapon speed=3.6
Hit=307
Exp=23
4p t9.25
I know that haste's value should increase if our weapon damage increases, but this is way higher than expected.
And yes I do hammer out HS with death runes and do spam DC with my excess RP when I have gaps.
However, what I'm thinking the simulator is showing is that the dps increase from haste I gain to spam more HS and DC outweigh the benefit of increased str/arpen. This leads me to think that there has to be a base haste level for blood priority system with GoD in order for the current, widely accepted stat weighings to be accurate.
We all know that maxing our RP is not good. But that is often the case in GoD blood if your haste is sufficiently low, as HS takes priority. IF there is a threshold haste level for blood, it is one such that you never max out on RP or have more than 2 death runes up.
One thing that is showing up straight from looking at the numbers is the AP - you need to enter the green portion of the AP, not your total one, so if your AP says 4800 + 600 (in green), you enter 600 only
STR at 2250 totally unbuffed and disregarding talents to avoid double-dipping (again a figure Kahorie suggested to use to get more realistic results in the simulator thread) also seems a bit high, but considering you put in a 282 dps weapon, i assume you have access and are using the heroic 258 tier, in which case it's reasonable.
You could try rerunning the simulator with the above suggestions, and the value of haste will probably go down to a reasonable/logical level.
Any idea why haste is worth so much? I'm using 2/2 epidemic for 51/0/20 blood spec with GoD.
This is ran with 1000h. Strength inputted is a little low due to me regemming for unohly.
I for one will be going back to GoDD. I honestly don't find the playstyles all that different. Aside from situations where you need you refresh diseases early to ensure they stay on the boss through something (jormungar burrow, icehowl charge, jaraxxus portal dps, etc), you still run a relatively straightforward rotation.
Even without the ninja-nerf to GoDis, come 3.3 we're losing some of those effects that helped feul disease damage (or at the very least replacing them after some weeks). Once you take the GoDis change into account, you're back to the old math which essentially means that you're trading the damage of an icy touch and plague strike for an extra heart strike. Pestilence does not give you any greater chance that you'll refresh with procs up than reapplying with IT/PS does.
It's enough of a damage boost that it's roughly the equivalent of GoDD, if I remember right, but if your diseases drop for any reason, then you've essentially lost that extra damage for at least one full cycle. Even without GoDis, you can use pestilence on add fights. Use it right before your target dies so you don't have to apply diseases to your next target... or simply to get extra disease damage on everything.
--
In fact, when I wasn't running GoDis, I used to use BT for extra strikes and generally used my ghoul more regularly because I could afford the extra second to do so, but running GoDis leaves you very little extra time to play around with, and you may always need to burn that BT to make sure your diseases stay up. (Not to mention it may force you to change when you pestilence, which is somewhat risky.)
11/16/09, 7:16 PM
![Krom[Fenris]'s Avatar](http://avatars.cdn.elitistjerks.com/customavatars/avatar21226_1.gif){kind=avatar}
Similar Threads
