I'm not too sure thatl agree with OP's suggested specs.
Me and the other DR in my guild has found more usage for unholy blight than DRW. The benefits lies in that you can precast it, it helps alot with aoe and it doesn't require a full RP bar to get proper use of it.
For checking the value of the Greatness trinket i suggest following the "guide" i wrote in the Rawr thread. My guess is that its just not configured correctly (since it is not by default).
I'm not too sure thatl agree with OP's suggested specs.
Me and the other DR in my guild has found more usage for unholy blight than DRW. The benefits lies in that you can precast it, it helps alot with aoe and it doesn't require a full RP bar to get proper use of it.
I don't know how else to put it other than if you're getting better results using UB > DRW, then your doing something wrong with DRW. Sure it doesn't take a full RP bar to cast but on a 6 minute fight (casting twice per minute, assuming Glyphed) you spend 480 RP for maximum up time. Now with DRW, on a 6 minute fight you can cast a maximum of four times (using the ability on cooldown) for 400 RP (assuming max RP, non-RPM, when cast). I don't have any numbers off-hand but I'm fairly certain that well timed DRW's on single target will out damage a rolling UB and give you RP for two extra Death Coils over the course of the fight.
Now you mentioned AOE, the only fight where AOE matters at all (and I'm only talking about Hard Modes here, because really who cares about anything else) is Freya. For that one situation UB may hold some water however Blood Boiling with DRW up is formidable AOE damage as well.
Bottom line here is DRW is a fantastic talent, much better than UB for Blood.
Original post is here. There's no math that I have ever found that backs this up (which really is unsurprising given how unintuitive armor calculations are), however it should be fairly simple to test this out in Rawr, spreadsheets, and/or sims.
I apologize for never getting my sheet out there as its still under construction (mostly the Unholy and Frost parts), however given what we know about Armor Penetration and how its calculated vs. how Strength is calculated we know there is a point in gear/stats where Armor Penetration will outweigh Strength because of its scaling. My magic number of around 6000 raid buffed AP may be off (although I don't think it is), but the fact remains that this magic number does in fact exist.
With that said I've had personal success with gemming for Armor Penetration over Strength, and so have many others. I started swapping gems around 6300 AP, and am now pushing around 6900 AP raid buffed and the scaling from Armor Penetration seems to just get better and better. I was recently hacked so I'm naked on the Armory, but I'm in either BiS or close to BiS gear for Blood.
The only downside I can think of to gemming Armor Penetration is coming up a bit short on magical attacks and magical AoE due to the decrease in Attack Power.
I apologize for never getting my sheet out there as its still under construction (mostly the Unholy and Frost parts), however given what we know about Armor Penetration and how its calculated vs. how Strength is calculated we know there is a point in gear/stats where Armor Penetration will outweigh Strength because of its scaling. My magic number of around 6000 raid buffed AP may be off (although I don't think it is), but the fact remains that this magic number does in fact exist.
With that said I've had personal success with gemming for Armor Penetration over Strength, and so have many others. I started swapping gems around 6300 AP, and am now pushing around 6900 AP raid buffed and the scaling from Armor Penetration seems to just get better and better. I was recently hacked so I'm naked on the Armory, but I'm in either BiS or close to BiS gear for Blood.
The only downside I can think of to gemming Armor Penetration is coming up a bit short on magical attacks and magical AoE due to the decrease in Attack Power.
I'd really like to see your armory in full PvE gear if you're pushin 6900 AP raid buffed now XD (Could have been a typo and I hope it was) Also - what food/potions/flasks do you use in raid? Do you eat/drink armor pen instead of dragonfin or endless rage?
I'ts definitely doable - assuming he's talking about having the 10% AP buff already. I sit at around 7200 (little over 6500 prior to 10% AP) raid buffed with 10% AP buff active - but I'm gemmed for strength. I imagine if I gemmed for armor pen I'd be around 6900. Unfortunately, I spec frost and unholy too frequently to gem all my dps gear for blood.
side note: I picked up the Kologarn clicky AP trinket the other day, and it was pretty fun breaking 10k attack power when I had greatness and Unholy Strength + orc racial up.
Just to clarify the DRW part. I thought its allways better to use DRW and then apply the diseases because DRW then gains more DMG from its own casted diseases instead of applying them and then popping DRW?
Just to clarify the DRW part. I thought its allways better to use DRW and then apply the diseases because DRW then gains more DMG from its own casted diseases instead of applying them and then popping DRW?
DRW doesn't hit for very hard. Since the diseases increase the damage of the base attack by a percentage, that percentage increase is not very significant. DRW's IT and PS especially hit for rather low amounts and rather than using them you're better off having it just front load its hardest hitting abilities. DRW's diseases ticks are also so small that they dont alter that
Essentially, you want to use all your GCDs on powerful strikes for the duration of DRW to get the most out of the cooldown. IT or PS just wastes a GCD on an ability that won't cause any meaningful damage from the DRW. Use IT and PS right before DRW to keep your own strikes buffed.
hello all. i am a long time reader first time poster. at the start of tier 8 it was said that your better off only getting the 2 piece for blood and then grab sexy armor pen items to fill in other slots, but i've noticed that the BiS now shows using 4 piece is better. is 4 piece better then the old alternative? sorry, if this was clarified earlier, but i couldn't seem to find the answer anywhere.
The only downside I can think of to gemming Armor Penetration is coming up a bit short on magical attacks and magical AoE due to the decrease in Attack Power.
It's hard to read 'had personal success' without getting the impression that conclusions are being drawn from WWS reports or training dummy sessions which are both highly anacdotal. We know there is a point where ArPen catches up to Str point for point but we can't say for certain where that point is for any given gearset without much more accurate spreadsheets or sims than are currently available.
One thing I would like to know and was unable to find on simple searches though DK forums was the statweights for gemslots, the way I've been thinking them has been that they add value of that +16 str gem I'll put in them, but then comes headpiece with metagem slot. How highly valued would that be? +21 agility & 3% critical damage sounds quite a large increase when thinking how much crit rating and even agility there sometimes seem to be on dps-plate, but are there any accurate numbers on how much does the metagem actually affect? I tried to do some searches on forum for this information (metagem, statweights, gem weights etc)
(First post, I'm and registered just for this one, as I've been wondering.)
Stat weightings for gem slots are identical to non-gemslots. You take the stats given on the gem, multiply them by the weighting and compare, it's that easy.
It's hard to read 'had personal success' without getting the impression that conclusions are being drawn from WWS reports or training dummy sessions which are both highly anacdotal. We know there is a point where ArPen catches up to Str point for point but we can't say for certain where that point is for any given gearset without much more accurate spreadsheets or sims than are currently available.
I think what what really fuels the Str vs ArP discussion is that DKs have never come across a stat until now that may rival Strength. Really both Str and ArP are very close and both extremely benefit ones DPS over any other stat at a high end gear level.
My personal success is backed up by the personal success of many others, but by all means does not prove my 'magic number' guess in full, although my findings from parses of Ulduar25 and Ulduar10 Hard Modes back this up. We can't say for certain EXACTLY where this point is, but I do not think we are as far off as one might think, given what we have available in the way of spreadsheets, sims, and raid parses.
I guess what bothers me is the repeated citing of sources like 'pesonal success' and parses as if they were more than just anacdotal evidence; it's not strictly limited to the Str vs ArPen inflection point either. In game testing has a purpose and that purpose is to reveal the underlying mechanics, crit reduction against boss, hit caps, exp caps, if exp truncating really means the values are truncated, proc mechanics, ect. There simply is no method for examining these sources to draw meaningful stat vs. stat comparisons given the number of other factors involved.
Then where do you draw the line at things crossing from anecdotal to more worthwhile data that can be utilized to draw some real, concrete statistical conclusions? I would also have to disagree that there is no common ground to pull sound data down from the varying input given from people using similar gear and stat setups. If the majority of people start shifting from all strength to some strength and mostly armor pen for gems and are noting a worthy influx of damage done, then really we should not dismiss these reports out of hand. The discussion then should be switched from "possible increase" to "what makes this work?"
Then where do you draw the line at things crossing from anecdotal to more worthwhile data that can be utilized to draw some real, concrete statistical conclusions? I would also have to disagree that there is no common ground to pull sound data down from the varying input given from people using similar gear and stat setups. If the majority of people start shifting from all strength to some strength and mostly armor pen for gems and are noting a worthy influx of damage done, then really we should not dismiss these reports out of hand. The discussion then should be switched from "possible increase" to "what makes this work?"
Statistically speaking it's a theoretically easy line to draw. Essentially, any given pool of data has a margin of error introduced through the variable factors involved. The question that needs to be answered is simply whether the data falls outside the bounds of the margin of error.
The inherent problem is that WWS parses have very wide margins of error due to the multitude of factors that come to bear during encounters. The margin is so wide that something as minute as the inflection point of ArP versus Str is effectively impossible to discern. Any concrete statistical conclusions drawn from WWS must be pertaining to factors that are beyond a shadow of a doubt more significant than the margin of error.
I would modify your final sentence slightly, as a majority consensus is not equivalent to a concrete statistical conclusion. Rather than jumping to conclusions by going from "possible increase" to "what makes this work?", one would instead go to "we strongly believe this may be a possibility, what can we do to prove or disprove it?"
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
It doesn't make much sense to discount parses as acceptable data because we have very little else to go on. They clearly are not the most accurate sources but with close examination we can still get the raw data that will help our discussion.
As a partial side note, I find WMO to be much more accurate and user friendly in terms of examining data.
Based on the dreaded "personal success/testing" and experimenting in Rawr/spreadsheets, I don't believe the inflection point for Str vs ArP is obtainable in current gear and accepted glyph setups. I think the Glyph of Disease will be a major factor for ArP if the bug is ever fixed.
It's not about discounting parses but understanding what they can and can not do. Parses can not defy mathematical or statistical law no matter how few our other data sources. What tetra appears to be pushing back against is the odd assumption that "personal success" as observed in a limited number of parses is somehow validated without thorough combing and processing of the data.
In any case, while I would agree that Glyph of Disease is likely to change the inflection point for Str vs ArP, I hesitate to consider it a "major" factor, bug or no bug. The glyph came up fairly often in the previous thread, but it was proven several times to be less of a DPS increase compared to the other three DPS glyphs. Unless any changes have been made, or there are proven holes in the old arguments, using Glyph of Disease is a DPS hit for the sake of convenience/personal preference.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
My 'magic number' findings were largely based upon my own math and spreadsheets and then cross referenced to the others we have available. Unfortunately uploading to WMO and WWS is the closest I can get to testing my theory.
In the last thread I had explained in great lengths how I came to my conclusions, and how Armor Penetration is effected by our other stats, and in specific, its relationship to Strength. The community as a whole has acknowledged this 'magic number' in which Armor Penetration overcomes Strength exists because of scaling, but not acknowledging that this point could be reached in current gear without going through similar processes to prove it just seems odd.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't mind being wrong, but in our efforts to find this answer please bring more to the table than "parses mean nothing". We see other physical damage dealing classes going through the same debate currently as well and have acknowledged that Armor Penetration is in fact a great stat. I do believe the people saying parses are not accurate enough to confirm this finding in our debate, they are absolutely correct, but what I'd like to see and I think many others is a pursuit towards the true 'magic number' where Armor Penetration overcomes Strength, even if it isn't obtainable in current gear.
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Just to recap, even at 7000 Attack Power and a large amount of Armor Penetration, I show Strength and Armor Penetration to still be close enough in weight that parses alone cannot prove my math, even though I show Armor Penetration at a higher weight.
06/05/09, 5:22 AM
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