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Old 09/23/09, 9:10 PM   #781
neomasterc
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by Silarn View Post
Can it now be safely assumed that GoDis is better than GoDD with 4T9 and SoVir?
I dont see the reasoning behind this. How does 4p t9 benefit GoD more? As GoD basically refreshs the diseases with 1 blood rune. But our main dps ability is still HS. Also, GoDD benefits DC procs from HS so it would be more beneficial.
SoV uptime should be almost always up, so I dont see how that has anything to do with GoD for additional DS..

Last edited by neomasterc : 09/23/09 at 9:15 PM.

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Old 09/23/09, 9:13 PM   #782
AtheistGod
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Orc Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by neomasterc View Post
I dun see the reasoning behind this. how does 4p t9 benefit GoD more? as GoD basically refreshs the diseases with 1 blood rune. but our main dps ability is still HS. also, GoDD benefits DC procs from HS so it would be more beneficial.
SoV uptime should be almost always up, so i dont see how that has anything to do with GoD for additional DS..
GoD allows you to roll full proc buffed diseases. Thus giving more disease damage to be increased by crit.

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Old 09/23/09, 9:17 PM   #783
neomasterc
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by AtheistGod View Post
GoD allows you to roll full proc buffed diseases. Thus giving more disease damage to be increased by crit.
Doesnt GoD just refresh the disease on the primary target? Your diseases should be on the primary target at all times anyways, so please explain how that changes 4p t9 if you're gonna keep the diseases on full duration.

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Old 09/23/09, 9:40 PM   #784
Sealpup
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by neomasterc View Post
I dont see the reasoning behind this. How does 4p t9 benefit GoD more?
Maths is needed and it may be debatable whether if Blood's dots are strong enough, however, his reasoning is that once we apply frost fever and blood plague when the procs are lined up, ie. fallen crusader, virulence, two piece tier 9, greatness, death's choice, and keep the diseases rolling, the crits from 4 piece tier 9 would benefit from those diseases more. A lot more. It's relative, and again, probably need some maths.

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Old 09/23/09, 9:41 PM   #785
Meygaera
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Dalaran
What AtheistGod means by that is when you refresh your current target's diseases with GoD, those diseases retain the amount of attack power that you had when you originally cast those diseases via IT and PS. This is called "rolling diseases". The theory is that if you can re-cast IT and PS when you have your highest amount of AP then roll those diseases with GoD then it will result in higher dps. Disease damage will contribute higher to your overall damage, thus making the 4pc T9 more worthwhile in a GoD spec.

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Old 09/24/09, 2:12 AM   #786
neomasterc
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Orc Death Knight
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by Silarn View Post
Can it now be safely assumed that GoDis is better than GoDD with 4T9 and SoVir?
Id think blood should just stick with 2p, and use other pieces that have arpen, such as the emblem helm, titanium razorplate, arpen gloves off anub 25, etc for more arpen. We are still mainly an arpen based spec, so disease dmg should not surpass our other priorities, hence why we should stay to our current glyphs/spec.
Thats just my opinion, no math to support it, but it has been mainly that way in the past. We ignore less beneficial stat bonuses and stack more arpen.

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Old 09/24/09, 2:40 AM   #787
zagor
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Eonar (EU)
Saying that Pestilence costs you a Heart Strike is a bit misleading.

Normal rotation has 1x IT, 1x PS, 6x HS, 2x DS
With GoD (and after diseases are rolling): 9x HS, 1x DS, 1x Pest

With GoD we also loose 1 talent point in Morbidity, and some damage on strikes before diseases are set. I use one short rotation of DS HS HS IT PS to get procs on start.

Another thing ARP nerf brought is regemming from ARP to STR. In my mind this also values disease rolling more than deathcoils (and we even loose DC sigil). OF course math is needed to confirm or deny this.

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Old 09/24/09, 3:47 AM   #788
Japper76
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Aggramar (EU)
I personally found very little (if any) DPS loss while raiding last night in ToC. I suspect this is due to SoVir being given to us. However I have never really gemmed for ArP, I use my jewellers gems as ArP & the rest is Str. I sit at around 35% Passive ArP (45% with Talents ofc).

I have been asking around (again with no solid numbers or math to back it up) but it seems with SoV we have ended up with a sort of status quo. I have never really got on with GoD myself, so I stick to IT > PS > DS > HS > HS > Ghoul > DC > DS > HS > HS > HS > HS > DC > DC.

I would also be very interested if anyone has any solid numbers whether gemming Str > ArP since the nerf, or whether passive ArP is the way to go.

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Old 09/24/09, 5:24 AM   #789
Aten
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Sylvanas (EU)
I'm having alot of problems keeping the GoD flowing perfectly, it may be because i not using a correct one, but on the second part of the rotation, i can never do more than 2 HS

What I'm using is:

DS > HS > IT > PS > HS > DC
DS > HS > HS > HS > Pest > DC

Then

DS > HS > HS > HS > DC
DS > HS > HS > Pest

I'm sure the rotation is faulty, because when i do the second HS i already have the diseases at 3sec.

On the ArP discussion, i bought yesterday the T9 helm and gloves (ilvl 232) to get my 4pc bonus, i lost around ~130 ArP from gear (including ArP nerf), and using normal rotation (not the above mention), i noticed a big diference on my DPS.

Prio-patch i was doing safelly 6k DPS on N. Beasts, and yesterday i barelly reached 5k, that makes me wonder if 4pc bonus is really necessary for Blood, 2pc t8 and 2pc t9 seems alot more beneficial, with SoVH and GoDD.


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Old 09/24/09, 8:24 AM   #790
Nighthavk
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Originally Posted by Aten View Post
I'm having alot of problems keeping the GoD flowing perfectly, it may be because i not using a correct one, but on the second part of the rotation, i can never do more than 2 HS

What I'm using is:

DS > HS > IT > PS > HS > DC
DS > HS > HS > HS > Pest > DC

Then

DS > HS > HS > HS > DC
DS > HS > HS > Pest
If you start with DS at the beginning of first rotation, then next phase you'll have 2x Death Runes. Example:

BBUUFF -> DS (UF) > HS (B) > IT/PS (UF) > HS (B)
BBUDDF -> HSx2 (DD) > DS (UF) > HS (B) > Pt (B)

Sprinkle DCs and trinkets as you wish.


On a side note, if you ask me, go with this rotation:

Before boss, build up RP (Ask your priests and druids to spam heals and shields on you, spam DnD and HoW, etc. I almost always start encounters with arund 70-80 RP)

BBUUFF -> DS -> {DRW & Trinkets Macro} -> IT/PS -> HSx2 -> DC/Ghoul
BBUDDF -> HSx2 -> DS -> HS -> Pest -> DC/etc

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Old 09/24/09, 2:35 PM   #791
AtheistGod
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Orc Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
Your rotation doesn't use runes in the same order both times. This will cause problems in anything short of perfect reaction times with no outside factors.

A better rotation is
DS PS IT HS HS
HS HS DS HS Pest
DS HS HS HS HS

and repeating the 2nd and 3rd lines.

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Old 09/24/09, 2:42 PM   #792
rh8452
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Worgen Mage
 
Kel'Thuzad
Prio-patch i was doing safelly 6k DPS on N. Beasts, and yesterday i barelly reached 5k, that makes me wonder if 4pc bonus is really necessary for Blood, 2pc t8 and 2pc t9 seems alot more beneficial, with SoVH and GoDD.
My DPS on beasts remained the same and I don't have 4-piece. The fight does have some elements out of your control, such as where Icehowl decides to run or breathe, whether you get paralytic toxin, etc.

Sims with GoD wearing 245 4-piece T9 and titanium razorplate would be nice I suppose, to settle the issue of whether using it is viable or not. It's pretty heavily latency dependent as well.

There's a number of fights where I'd say it's worth it -if- you have 4pc T9 (hodir, anub) and a number where it isn't (beasts). If it comes down to having to keep a stack of GoD and GoDD in my bags to swap around for specific fights, that isn't so bad.

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Old 09/24/09, 2:43 PM   #793
Algroth
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by Japper76 View Post

I would also be very interested if anyone has any solid numbers whether gemming Str > ArP since the nerf, or whether passive ArP is the way to go.
Gemming ArP vs Strength is a bit more complicated than a blanket 'yes' or 'no.' ArP scales effectively quadratically while strength scales linearly. So really the choice to gem ArP > Str should be based on how much ArP you currently have. In my current gear setup I have 433 ArP (haven't regemmed since the patch) and MRunestone. I ran three simulations (did not include ghoul dps), one with my current setup, one with full ArP gemming, and one with full Str gemming. The sim showed that ArP > Str for full ArP gemming while Str > ArP for the other two. Interestingly enough it gave me the same DPS number for full ArP as my current setup, and a dps loss for pure Str gemming.

Also a page or two back in this thread someone posted EP of full ToC25 gear with a large amount of armor pen and ArP beat Str by a substantial amount.
---------------------------
The main question I am asking myself right now is when we get a substantial amount of ToC25 heroic gear, which depending on the pieces will probably involve massive amounts of ArP which may put us over the soft cap for MRunestone - Will it be worth ditching MR and going for max passive armor pen or staying at the softcap and keeping MR?

I am going to do some code editing sometime within the next week so I can run a series of simulations comparing Str and ArP and make a 3d plot comparing them. My initial thoughts on this is to go from ~1500-2000 (unbuffed) strength in increments of 10 and ArP rating in increments of 1, using Str, ArP, (ArP dps value / Str dps value) -1 as my axis. I will probably use my own gear as a base since it is a decent mix of Ulduar and ToC gear.

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Old 09/24/09, 2:50 PM   #794
tetracycloide
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Human Warlock
 
Quel'dorei
Originally Posted by Aten View Post
I'm sure the rotation is faulty, because when i do the second HS i already have the diseases at 3sec.
You're hitting Pest to early the first time. Try saving the first Pestilance until diseases have nearly run out, even after the dump phase, so that they stay up for the enitre second rotation like so.

IT PS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS wait... wait... P

HS HS HS HS DS
DS HS HS HS P

On the second rotation waiting shouldn't be necessary and the rune cooldowns will make sure everything lines up from there on out assuming you have maximum disease duration from talents.

Last edited by tetracycloide : 09/24/09 at 4:59 PM.

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Old 09/24/09, 6:10 PM   #795
Ihmemies
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
According to our today's parse from 25man coliseum Sigil of Virulence's buff seems to be on for pretty nice amount of time: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay - It happened to proc more than the 2p9 bonus.

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