I've added a section to the OP discussing switching from Str to ArP gemming. Hopefully this will answer a lot of questions people have about whether or not to make the switch. I've also updated some of the stat weights and a few other things.
So, last week i found myself having 830 ArP from gear, Whoa! i figured if MM hunters and Feral Druids were gemming straight ArP and posting such high numbers that i myself should give it ago. Needless to say i was very pleased
obv for rotface i was highest because i never ran out of unstable ooze explosion and was only infected once at the start and once at the end which i didnt run out for because it was the last million health
Actually if you look at both Festerguts there's not much of a difference. The blood kill was significantly faster which always leads to higher DPS. The Unholy kill sustained a close DPS level with less DPS time (97 vs 99%) over a longer boss duration.
Seems as though expertise is worth more than arpen and str if not capped. This was reflected in my own simulation as well as in the stat weighings in the OP. This suggests to gem expertise until cap and destroys the conventional idea to gem arpen or str regardless of expertise rating. Also, I believe the spell hit cap value would be greater especially using a GoD spec because if pestilence falls, its a huge dps loss.
Seems as though expertise is worth more than arpen and str if not capped. This was reflected in my own simulation as well as in the stat weighings in the OP. This suggests to gem expertise until cap and destroys the conventional idea to gem arpen or str regardless of expertise rating. Also, I believe the spell hit cap value would be greater especially using a GoD spec because if pestilence falls, its a huge dps loss.
I had always assumed pestilence ran off of the specials hit cap, simply because I have never seen it miss. Though, after a little reading it appears it is based on spell hit cap. Combining standard specials cap, virulence, and a shadow priest in your group composition would it be necessary to ever attempt to get closer to spell cap? I'd assume the loss of ArP/Str gems would lead to more of a loss, than say having to blow a BT/two GCD's to cast pestilence again if it misses.
I've added a section to the OP discussing switching from Str to ArP gemming. Hopefully this will answer a lot of questions people have about whether or not to make the switch. I've also updated some of the stat weights and a few other things.
I'm not sure just converting to all ArP gems once you reach a certain EP is the best way. Each loss of str and addition of ArP causes EP values to change. There comes a point where swapping Str for ArP is not a dps gain. You may still see a gain in DPS over your original all Str gemming but you might not be reaching optimal dps. I tried to illustrate this a couple pages ago in this thread but I'm not really sure if I was clear enough.
Ideally what you should do to determine gemming is setup your character in Kahorie's and run 1 sim. Then adjust the stat values -20 str and +20 ArP and run the sim again. Rinse and repeat until you notice a dps loss over your last gem change. For gems used to get set bonus's remember to include the set bonus as part of your stat subtraction. Yes it's a little time consuming but I believe it's the most accurate way to determine a gem swap.
Toxin I believe if you read back through this thread it has been determined that DRW is better with diseases. Personally I've found that if I open with DSx2, HSx2, ERW. I have enough RP to Fire DRW and have all 6 runes available 4 of which will be Death Runes.
Many pages ago there was a minor discussion about the relative worth of NoTD. To be more specific, it was a comparison between NoTD and Necrosis, and necrosis was easily proved to be superior (and rightfully so) in most contexts.
I’d like to revisit that, but in this case, compare NoTD and Morbidity. I’m an unholy DK so I stole a WMO log off of a blood dk for Rotface 25.
I chose this log because it didn’t have any abnormally high crit rates. As you can see DC did 5% of the overall damage. Thus the value of morbidity would be:
5 - (1/1.1)(5) = 0.4545
Per talent point: 0.4545/2 = 0.23
To put that into comparison, bloodworms did 0.9% for 3 talent points = 0.3%/talent point. So bloodworms is actually higher single target dps than morbidity!
If you look at his ghoul’s damage however you see that it did 1.4% damage in total. With the 90 sec CD reduction, the ghoul could have been summoned a 3rd time, and thus the increase in damage would’ve been:
1.4(3/2) = 2.1
2.1 – 1.4 = 0.7
0.7/2 = 0.35 dps/talent point
You also have to factor in the 90% aoe reduction from the almost omnipresent aoe damage auras present in ICC, which would increase survivability of both your ghoul, and your army. Also the reduction in AoTD cd will allow two armies during the Putricide encounter.
I understand that there is also 10 sec cd reduction on DnD to consider, but that is pretty much moot in ICC.
I’m proposing the same 51/0/20 build, but the two points from morbidity put into NoTD for higher single-target dps. Any criticisms of either my math and/or logic?
Haste's only real draw for Blood currently is for more white damage, BCB, and Necrosis. If you sub Frost, you lose BCB, and Necrosis, not to mention Epidemic and Ravenous Dead. In comparison, you only gain Black Ice (a pitiful talent for Blood), IIT, and Endless Winter (which would only provide 1% str over Ravenous Dead).
I simulated some updated Blood APE values for Zerack, you may want to use them in your post. As always generalized APE values are less accurate for individuals than personally simmed APE values based on each own gear.
Two important notes: First, armor pen and Expertise outrun Strength as red gem stats, therefore gearing and gemming for ArP and Expertise Cap is highly recommended in a pure Blood gear.
Second, aiming for expertise cap makes racial expertise bonuses a complicated issue, why I chose a race without any expertise bonus.
Stat
iLvl 264
iLvl 277
iLvl 264 GoD
iLvl 277 GoD
Attack Power
1.00
1.00
1.00
1.00
Strength
2.87
2.88
2.87
2.80
Crit Rating
2.03
2.47
2.03
2.43
ArP Rating
3.79
4.47
3.95
4.59
Expertise Rating
3.62
4.18
4.79
5.50
Haste Rating
1.56
1.92
1.56
1.88
Agility
1.46
1.82
1.54
1.85
MeleeHit (<8%)
4.31
5.38
5.46
5.65
SpellHit (8%-11%)
0.18
0.31
0.18
0.26
WeaponDPS
10.13
10.52
10.51
10.63
WeaponSpeed
461.54
493.51
576.92
400.00
Armor
0.028
0.028
0.028
0.028
Stat
iLvl 264
iLvl 277
iLvl 264 GoD
iLvl 277 GoD
AP
0.78 DPS
0.77 DPS
0.78 DPS
0.80 DPS
DPS
1.28 AP
1.30 AP
1.28 AP
1.25 AP
Set Bonus
iLvl 264
iLvl 277
iLvl 264 GoD
iLvl 277 GoD
2T7
68.42
83.78
70.67
85.53
4T7
0.00
8.11
-9.33
-3.95
2T8
67.11
77.03
52.00
60.53
4T8
128.95
151.35
152.00
176.32
2T9
139.47
147.30
132.00
153.95
4T9
207.89
262.16
233.33
281.58
2T10
272.37
322.97
320.00
368.42
4T10
378.95
462.16
386.67
453.95
Tables ripped off without friendly permission from Consider.
Please point me at any false gear or gem choices, although I'm quite confident now, that I eliminated them all.
Edit: Forgot to change back to Hanged Man.
Edit 2: Actually recognized, that GoD build APEs differ a lot from the GoDD build's and because this is the favored endgame spec, I added them to the tables.
Edit 3: Reason for the updated ArP values can be found here.
Last edited by Tyraela : 03/10/10 at 9:41 AM.
Reason: Sigil mistake; Added GoD build values; Updated ArP values
You've overcapped armor penetration in the first set by 6 rating; you could say you'll only get 14 arp from one gem. I would suggest using one strength gem instead: 3,74*14=52,36 vs the 20*2,87=57,4 from one Bold Cardinal Ruby. Likewise in the 277 set but you're only overcapped by 2 rating, making the arp gem still better than a strength one.
While your calculation is obviously correct, I was so displeased with losing the hard cap, I looked further into this matter and actually found a possible loop hole.
Due to the nature of the functionality of armor pen, the last points are for more valuable than the first. Naturally this is also correct for the armor penetration rating from 1,210 to 1,260, which are used in the tables for better general values, and the rating points from 1,246 to 1,260, points of interest in our case. So I simulated it for some correct values and those are:
20 armor pen gem
14*3.82=53.48 for builds without GoD
14*4.10=57.40 for builds with GoD
versus
20 Strength gem
14*2.87=57.40
So I assumed, it would be fair to say, that there's no difference between the ArP and Strength gem (Initially this post should've ended here.), but this was the moment, it came to my mind! The armor pen cap isn't 1,260, it's 90*13.99572719=1,259.61545, therefore only 13.6154471 of the 20 rating provided by the gem is actually used, making the armor pen gem inferior to its Strength pendant and me incredibly sad for losing my wonderful beloved hard cap. I also redid the armor pen values for 1,209 to 1,259 to get more accurate numbers at this point.
But salvation was gained by remembering, having 13.61 armor pen less should weaken the value of Strength and it does!
The actual strength value with swapped gems is 2.79! This results in 13.61*4.1=55.82 vs 20*2.79=55.80! So hard capping is still superior! Too bad, running the simulator with both sets results in a 4 DPS gain by replacing one armor pen gem through a Strength gem. I must further admit, the Strength gem is even more valuable in situations where your diseases continue to tick while you're not in melee range and as nearly every boss besides Saurfang and Festergut has such a mechanic, it is clearly superior.
So my last defense is: IT JUST FEELS NICE TO BE HARD CAPPED! And it looks better! How does that lonely Strength gem look? Exactly, pitiable!
I'm still thankful for bringing this subject to the table and congratulate hereby on post #1337.
Will also edit the 264 set.
Last edited by Tyraela : 03/10/10 at 9:35 AM.
Reason: Correction of minor mistakes
Has anyone experimented with using Glyph of Dark Death instead of Glyph of DRW in a GoD build? Looking over combat log parses from ICC25 last night, Deathcoil damage is very close to DRW on many fights, and above on some short ones (Festergut, Morrowgar). Just doing some rough comparisons between logs pre-zone buff and post, it seems that DRW does not benefit from the 5% zone buff either. I've verified with logs as well that DRW does not receive the Blood Queen vampire bite buff.
Has anyone experimented with using Glyph of Dark Death instead of Glyph of DRW in a GoD build? Looking over combat log parses from ICC25 last night, Deathcoil damage is very close to DRW on many fights, and above on some short ones (Festergut, Morrowgar). Just doing some rough comparisons between logs pre-zone buff and post, it seems that DRW does not benefit from the 5% zone buff either. I've verified with logs as well that DRW does not receive the Blood Queen vampire bite buff.
What verification did you do? DRW clearly gets a boost in the Blood Queen encounter. DRW autoattacks are hitting for over 12k on that fight - I have yet to see a non-gimmick log where it's able to break 10k on it's own. If you didn't pick this up, I doubt your testing was able to identify whether or not it was receiving a much smaller 5% boost.
ArP Elixir and Food versus AP Flask and Strength Food
Originally Posted by Chani
So, this Arp capped/nearly capped and all gems Arp. And I assume STR food and AP Flask. Can you try the following im sims plz:
STR Food-> Arp Food: 40->40 APE: 40*~2.8->40*~4.5: ~112->~180
Flask->Arp Elixir: 180->45*4.5: 202 APE
And gem the ARP Gems which are then over the cap with STR.
I can only guess this is marginal, but everything counts, doesnt it?
You will most likely get an infraction for violation of rule 7, so in future feel free and test it yourself. I'm quite sure, you would've found out, that both of your question are, no offense, redundant. But as I don't want an infraction for disregarding rule 10, I will still answer your question, because this wasn't already discussed in the thread and this leads to some answers, which may interest several other people as well.
So, coming to your first question:
You suggest eating 40 ArP buff food and socketing 40 Strength over eating 40 Strength buff food and gemming 40 armor pen. You end up with 40 ArP and 40 Strength either way. There's one exception for the 264 gear: If you're a JC, and only if you're a JC, you can replace one 34 ArP gem with a 34 Strength gem resulting in 40 ArP food buff plus 34 Strength gem versus 34 ArP gem and 40 Strength buff food. This gets you closer to the cap without overshooting it. Will update the 264 Set and add a note to clarify it should be used with [Hearty Rhino].
Second question:
Gaining 45 armor pen rating from an elixir, swapping gems for not overcapping, results in effectively chugging 40 Strength and zero to five ArP rating. Best case scenario 40*2.9+5*4.5<180 still favors AP flask, however if you're sitting at 1,200 armor pen (with Bryntroll heroic e.g.), [Elixir of Armor Piercing] could be superior to flasking, but only individual sims will show this.
Anyway, I completely forgot to add buff food and flasks in the sim, redoing APEs now.
While I am at consumables:
Originally Posted by Soilantgreen64
Notes on [Indestructible Potion]: This should be used about 5s before you enter into combat on any given fight. This will result in you not being potion locked for that particular encounter and enable you to use another potion as soon as the cooldown expires. It should also be noted that the AP gains from the armor will not be calculated till your strength changes in value. This can be done via a simple weaponswap macro, cancelling and reapplying HoW or simply waiting for a FC proc.
This is no longer true, AP is now also updated on armor value changes.
Last edited by Tyraela : 03/11/10 at 3:20 PM.
Reason: Correction of minor mistakes
What verification did you do? DRW clearly gets a boost in the Blood Queen encounter. DRW autoattacks are hitting for over 12k on that fight - I have yet to see a non-gimmick log where it's able to break 10k on it's own. If you didn't pick this up, I doubt your testing was able to identify whether or not it was receiving a much smaller 5% boost.
Autoattacks seem to work fine, but its main damage source, Heart Strike, doesn't scale at all. Look closely at your logs, or go to the dummy and test in Frost Presence, Blood Presence and Blood Presence with Hysteria up.
Additionally, I don't think it's terribly surprising that DRW's strikes don't seem to scale with the ICC buff since they don't scale with many of our talents either (DRW's Oblits will eat it's own diseases even if you have Annihilation, for example). Something about the ability is coded weird, but this isn't new and doesn't stop it from being a valuable talent.
Looking at the Logs Lindwurm posted and separating out the first DRW from the other two as it was cast before he got bitten, suggests that neither the autoattacks or the strikes get the benefit of her buff. The sample size is pretty small though, and the first DRW did appear to have better buffs otherwise.
Perhaps careful analysis of other similar logs could answer the question.
Autoattacks seem to work fine, but its main damage source, Heart Strike, doesn't scale at all. Look closely at your logs, or go to the dummy and test in Frost Presence, Blood Presence and Blood Presence with Hysteria up.
In the WOL you linked autoattack is close to 70% of the DRW's total damage. Furthermore, the average crit is showing at almost 9k - the max crit would be even higher. Another thing to consider is that in most cases the first DRW you cast will be with the most procs up at the same time - things like the Ashen Verdict ring, and DBW throw proc alignment out of whack because of their strange ICD's (i.e. not 45 seconds like most trinkets).
It's pretty clear that DRW is gaining some benefit during the BQL encounter - there is no other explanation for 12k DRW crits when the norm for top of the line ICC gear is 7 to 8k max.
Going back to your original question - is it worth swapping out glyphs? My DRW on Festergut Heroic this week was almost identical damage wise to my death coil:
However - GoDD's worth is easy to figure out - it would've added 15% more death coil damage. However, GoDRW is an additional 5 seconds (on top of 12) for about a 42% increase in duration. It's not as simple as a 42% damage increase however - depending on the DRW's attack speed, you may lose out on an autoattack, and the last 5 seconds may not have consistent ability usage due to rune cooldowns and lack of RP. It's pretty obvious that it would be much more than a 15% increase, however.
Honestly, I welcome additional discussion on the mechanics of Rune Weapon - it's one of the most misunderstood abilities in the game at the moment. I'd like to do some additional testing myself to verify some of its behavior. We know it scales with Haste, AP and Strength. The general consensus is that it does NOT scale with armor pen, and I've seen arguments for both sides on whether or not it scales with crit rating. Furthermore - some people insist it doesn't scale with Hysteria or Blood Presence, and some insist it does. I haven't seen convincing proof either way, however.
And finally - it seems to scale to 50% of your autoattack damage (minus armor penetration most likely), however the rest of your abilities aren't affected by talents or glyphs, which ironically makes death coil one of the hardest hitting abilities to use while Rune Weapon is active because it is already the closest to baseline (as opposed to several talents and glyphs increasing heartstrike and death strike).
Ive been reading threw these forums for a while and im having a problem understanding why experise gemming isnt helping even though im at a very low expertise level.
EP values it at 4.79 with my current gear/spec yet when i sim with 2.9% or 6%(i dont want to gem the extra .5) its not changing my dps on sims.
I guess what im asking is, If expertise has a EP value alsmot double str(the stat i would be replacing) why dont i see next to any change. I dont doubt the EP values im just having a problem understanding them i guess.
@Decaying:
Autoattacks are the main source of DRW-damage because the Strikes do not scale correctly.
If these scaled correctly, i would expect at least a 50% increase in DRW-DPS.
Regarding GoDD vs GoDRW:
I just ran both through the sim with the standard ICC-2h template, and DoDD was about a 5 DPS increase with no ICC damage scaling. Assuming that DRW is scaling properly in the sim, we might gain slightly more from GoDD.
Run many short duration fights over a long period of time and check the variation on simmed dps. Expertise isn't a stat which increases your dps, but stabilizes it. Over the course of 100 hours or more, the difference between a few misses and hitting on some of your abilities (which can simply be used again if you aren't GCD constrained) turns into a far bigger deal.
The difference for me is 10421(+/- 809) (without any expertise) and 10652(+/- 941) (with maximum expertise).
We've already been over DRW and why autoattack makes up the majority of it's damage output.
Your simming is flawed:
1). You're using a generic gearset that was built for unholy - it only has about 800 armor pen. To accurately sim blood dps use an armor pen gemmed one close to hard cap (you can reference my armory and use my stats). This is a several hundred dps loss and not accurate.
2). You're probably using the default GoD spec in kahories which takes a point out of epidemic and moves it to morbidity which would inflate death coil damage. This is a several hundred dps loss.
3). You probably have the wait for procs to use DRW turned on and are using a 45 second, 60 second, and 75 second ICD items -this will make the sim wait for these to line up before using DRW which kills it's uptime. This is also a several hundred dps loss, and would lower DRW value compared to DC.
Furthermore, I have my doubts that kahories models DRW correctly - it consistently undervalues it dps contribution. In game parses generally are well above the ~4% total damage it reports.
Rerun the sim correctly and see what results you come up with but it's pretty clear that currently GoDD is not worth trading for GoDRW. Your assumptions so far have been incorrect - with the exception of whether or not DRW will scale with the ICCraid buff which is currently unknown.
On a related note, the general consensus for GoD is to reapply diseases when you pop DRW so it will have it's own diseases - this appears not be the case. Last night I found out that if you have diseases on the target, use DRW and then hit pestilence, your diseases will refresh and DRW will also use pestilence and put it's own diseases up without them previously being applied by it/ps.
On a related note, the general consensus for GoD is to reapply diseases when you pop DRW so it will have it's own diseases - this appears not be the case. Last night I found out that if you have diseases on the target, use DRW and then hit pestilence, your diseases will refresh and DRW will also use pestilence and put it's own diseases up without them previously being applied by it/ps.
Unless something has changed, and your referring to the PTR, I can attest to the fact that on LIVE this is most definitely -not- the case. Using Pest to refresh YOUR diseases will -not- apply DRW diseases. I just ran to the training dummies to make sure, and verified that pestilence will not apply DRW diseases (with or without Glyph of Disease). After applying diseases with IT/PS, pest will definitely spread its current diseases, but it will not apply them initially.
02/23/10, 12:43 PM
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