Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died - Page 55

rhackin · 03/12/10, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by 7alisman

Unless something has changed, and your referring to the PTR, I can attest to the fact that on LIVE this is most definitely -not- the case. Using Pest to refresh YOUR diseases will -not- apply DRW diseases. I just ran to the training dummies to make sure, and verified that pestilence will not apply DRW diseases (with or without Glyph of Disease). After applying diseases with IT/PS, pest will definitely spread its current diseases, but it will not apply them initially.

I'm not sure exactly what causes this to happen, but on live, pest will refresh both sets of diseases sometimes (my diseases and DRW's diseases). I only see this happen about 1 out of 10 times. I've tried to figure out a way to duplicate this scenerio so I can do it all the time, but haven't figured out how. I'm guessing it's just random.

Chani · 03/12/10, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

Run many short duration fights over a long period of time and check the variation on simmed dps. Expertise isn't a stat which increases your dps, but stabilizes it. Over the course of 100 hours or more, the difference between a few misses and hitting on some of your abilities (which can simply be used again if you aren't GCD constrained) turns into a far bigger deal.

The difference for me is 10421(+/- 809) (without any expertise) and 10652(+/- 941) (with maximum expertise).

So the difference is like not existant. I support this since I dont see any difference (in real not sim) when having 19 instead of 28 expertise. However iam smashing HS anyway, any maybe I notice that sometimes I have to press twice, but that isnt a dps loss. The 5 APE from sims are way too much

Decaying · 03/12/10, 4:31 PM

Strange, myself and a guildmate tested this on live last night and everytime we were able to get it to work. I'll try it again tonight.

Tyraela · 03/12/10, 5:56 PM

So, I was trying to further improve the APE tables, using the following specifications.

100h sim, many 300s fights
150 ms
1 enemy
No additional RP gain
Do not wait for FC for DRW
Spec used
Gear used + [Hearty Rhino] + [Flask of Endless Rage]

To my surprise I got this result. Although this results in a more realistic value for hit and expertise, I neither understand the negative 4T7 bonus, which I didn't care about, because nobody will use it with 264 gear, nor the spell hit value. Both don't make any sense to me, any help to understand this, is very much appreciated. 4T7 bonus

Mimzy · 03/12/10, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by rhackin

I'm not sure exactly what causes this to happen, but on live, pest will refresh both sets of diseases sometimes (my diseases and DRW's diseases). I only see this happen about 1 out of 10 times. I've tried to figure out a way to duplicate this scenerio so I can do it all the time, but haven't figured out how. I'm guessing it's just random.

I did some testing on this a while back, unless something has changed it works as follows:

Single target: Pest with GoDis refreshes your diseases only.
2+ Targets: Pest with GoDis will refresh your current diseases, apply DRW Diseases, and spread both sets to all availible targets.

7alisman · 03/12/10, 6:03 PM

EDIT: Wording

Interesting...again however, as of my test at lunch on the Ironforge target dummies, pestilence was not applying DRW diseases on -any- of the targets. In the end, with or without Glyph of Disease, despite the fact there most definitely was more than one target dummy in pest range, diseases were not being applied in any way apart from IT/PS.

I will do my best to test this in a raid setting (however we raid M/T/W) to see if there are any differences, but if anyone else raiding tonight or over the weekend can confirm whether pestilence does, or does not apply diseases for DRW, it would be greatly apprieciated.

vikkyne · 03/13/10, 5:40 PM

"The two most important stats for Blood DKs are Strength and Armor Penetration. The general rule of thumb while gearing up is ALWAYS gem for STR, except to meet Meta gem requirements."

... but ...

"Why are Hit and Expertise simming so high? The blood rotation has no free GCDs, so every miss sets you back and hurts your DPS. You really want these stats to be capped."

So I get the STR gemming thing, but what I want to know is, if my Expertise is down in the 15 range, do I gem that in conjunction with STR and/or STR/Crit gems (if I choose to go for the bonus stat via gem color)? Or simply ignore what my expertise level is?

Seems to me, especially now, that expertise needs to be capped, and then you pump STR.

Morbid-Hellscream · 03/13/10, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mimzy

I did some testing on this a while back, unless something has changed it works as follows:

Single target: Pest with GoDis refreshes your diseases only.
2+ Targets: Pest with GoDis will refresh your current diseases, apply DRW Diseases, and spread both sets to all availible targets.

Currently working on Lich King 10, and I can confirm that this is still true. Pestilence with DRW up while ghouls are around in phase 1 definitely applies a second stack of diseases, but while the Lich King is alone in phase 2 before the Valk's spawn it does not apply a second set of diseases.

neomasterc · 03/15/10, 4:26 AM

nerdfuel · 03/15/10, 6:34 AM

Originally Posted by neomasterc

Just did my own stat weighings, seemed like haste is outweighing crit

I'm not getting similar results, which means its most likely related to gear.

ArP Gems
EP CritRating | 2.39
EP HasteEstimated | 1.86
EP HasteRating1 | 1.97

Str Gems
EP CritRating | 2.38
EP HasteEstimated | 1.94
EP HasteRating1 | 2.12

Haste does get closer to crit with Str gems than with ArP gems. Were you set up for Str gems when you got those results?

Tyraela · 03/15/10, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by neomasterc

Just did my own stat weighings, seemed like haste is outweighing crit:

EP CritRating | 2.22
EP HasteEstimated | 1.67
EP HasteRating1 | 2.64

No, it doesn't. HasteEstimated is the interesting EP Value.

Originally Posted by Afabar

Estimated Haste rating:

A sim is run with the character config multiplying haste sensible ability damages (withe hit, ghoul, DRW, Gargoylle, damaging proc without internal CD) . This is a walk around as haste due to disease clipping and all proc can have a positive or negative incidence even with a small variation of it.
EP is given by the formula: EP stat = ((StatDPS - baseDPS)/50 ) / ((APDPS - baseDPS)/100)

neomasterc · 03/15/10, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by nerdfuel

I'm not getting similar results, which means its most likely related to gear.

ArP Gems
EP CritRating | 2.39
EP HasteEstimated | 1.86
EP HasteRating1 | 1.97

Str Gems
EP CritRating | 2.38
EP HasteEstimated | 1.94
EP HasteRating1 | 2.12

Haste does get closer to crit with Str gems than with ArP gems. Were you set up for Str gems when you got those results?

I apologize for the lack of clarification. I was gemming full str with GoD. I suspect it has something to do with my high levels of arpen (72.67% from gear+10% from talents=82.67% without arpen gems). My expertise was also not capped (22), therefore may lower the value of the crit slightly. Regarding the actual value of haste vs estimated haste, the only reason I could think of for the large discrepancy is if my pestilence misses, additional haste would mean that I have more time to refresh it. Also, not being expertise capped may mean that additional haste would help me avoid possible rune misalignments. However, this still does not account for the huge discrepency.

Snob · 03/16/10, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Morbid-Hellscream

Currently working on Lich King 10, and I can confirm that this is still true. Pestilence with DRW up while ghouls are around in phase 1 definitely applies a second stack of diseases, but while the Lich King is alone in phase 2 before the Valk's spawn it does not apply a second set of diseases.

Spreading diseases with DRW up should be very useful for phase 3. As the Lich King spawns spirits above him, you can apply DRW and spread its diseases on to all the spirits before he gets kited away from them. Helps with both DPS and killing the spirits faster.

Although the DRW diseases aren't really significant.

7alisman · 03/16/10, 5:02 PM

Does anyone know why this is the case on a single battle and not consistent with the rest of the instance, or the game in general? I am unsure why a pestilence would apply DRWs diseases -only- on the Lich King and nowhere else...

Mimzy · 03/16/10, 5:17 PM

Well, I sort of started up this discussion, so I will chime in:

I have not been blood for a while, but it was not fight specific when I did it, I replicated it on Marrowgar, Putricide, and Twin Valks, it also worked on the Silvermoon and Thunder Bluff target dummies (which is where I first noticed it).

7alisman · 03/16/10, 5:57 PM

Interesting, I would love nothing more than to recreate this in any raid, instance, or on a target dummy. If anyone can explain to me how they recreate having DRW apply its diseases with a pestilence, as opposed to IT/PS/Pest that would be fantastic.

It just seems odd to me, that if this was the case, that not only is it not part of a standard rotation in the OP (as it would net you and and DRW an extra HS -with- diseases as opposed to running it disease-less or simply reapplying). In addition, I'm more concerned with the fact that I cant seem to recreate it.

Perhaps I'm going about it the wrong way? An earlier post mentioned multiple death knights, is this a prerequisite? If so, do they both have to be blood? My guild presently runs with myself (blood) and an UH DK.

Here is what I have been doing for my testing (again, testing has been done on ICC bosses, heroic instance bosses, and target dummies in several different locations, both at 0hp, and 75%+):

Apply Diseases
cast DRW
pest

This refreshes my diseases, spreads them to nearby targets, but does not apply DRW diseases on either the focus target, or the secondary targets pest spreads to.

However, pest does spread diseases under this condition (which is the general rule of thumb)

Cast DRW
Apply Diseases
Pest

This applies my diseases, as well as DRW's on the focus target, and pestilence refreshes diseases, and spreads both mine and DRW's to all secondary targets.

Now, pardon me if I am going about this wrong, but I would really like some clarification. My guild is presenting working on Sindragosa. I haven't had the chance to play with the lich king fight at present time, which seems to be where this thought process came from, so I can't verify if it does, or does not work there. However, I can with almost complete certainty say that throughout the zone, I cannot recreate a scenario where DRW's diseases are applied to the main target by refreshing your own diseases with a pest.

Again, just making sure I am not misinterpreting your comments, and want to make sure I (and many others) get the most out of their playstyle.

Edited: Spelling Mistake

Mimzy · 03/16/10, 7:39 PM

Well like I mentioned, I have not beed blood for a while (but there have been no major patches since). However, I can confirm you are going about things correctly.

When it was working for me, I was the only Blood DK in the raid (but there were 1-2 Unholy DKS with me on all of the raid situations) yet obviously I was flying solo on the target dummies.

At this point I am intriuged and very curious to know the actual mechanics behind this phenomenon. One other piece of information I have is that it could be linked to range in some way. I say this because for horde, there is only one good target dummy to practice a single target rotation on that features GoD, which is the Ebon hold one. When I was checking the other dummies to try and find one where the non-boss dummies were out of range, I noticed on the Thunderbluff one that pest without DRW up would not chain any diseases to the non-boss dummies, but as soon as DRW was active, a pest would suddenly spread to the other dummies (even when making sure to position myself so DRW was summoned on the far side).

This made me think that perhaps the DRW pest and self pest had different range limitations, admittedly, this is a bit of a reach / shot in the dark, but it might prove helpful to someone elses testing. Another highly unlikely factor could be race or faction, since the people who can get it to work all appear to be Horde (and orcs at that) and all the people posting they have no luck with it are Alliance.

I am going to switch my offspec back to blood and try things out on some of the easy mode content tonight, as well as some dummies, so I can get a more up to date and complete picture of the situation to go along with your testing.

EDIT: Limited testing before raid on dummies shows this has changed a bit since I last tested, it no longer works on Thunderbluff dummies

Azerius · 03/17/10, 12:55 AM

Could it be the effect of the minor glyph of Pestilence?
As in DRW mirroring Pestilence and not benefiting from the enhanced range almost every DK has?

zagor · 03/17/10, 9:02 AM

Isn't this just the result of DRW casting pestilence and therefore spreading it's dieases? What I mean is: it's not our pest that's spreading DRW diseases, DRW just mimics our moves and casts it's own pestilence.

Not that long ago DRW was summoning Army of Ghouls, summoning & mounting it's own deathcharger, etc.

Blewbewbz · 03/22/10, 8:33 PM

I haven't read too far in to the thread lately, as it's all filled with math that makes my head hurt about whether to ArP stack or not, but I'm sure this has been posted already. Been reading on other websites that claim SotHM isn't at all viable for Blood, being as the "accepted" rotations for blood don't allow the full stack to be attained, or it can't be maintained. I did some testing, and with a slight change, your rotation can remain relatively the same, and get all 3 stacks and maintain it. I tested this in a recent ICC10 with the GoDD build:

Begin with getting 25 runic power prior to pull (HoW/DnD/BT spam) then:
DS IT PS HS HS dump HS HS DS HS HS dump repeat

The best way to memorize the rotation is to remember that anytime you see a frost and unholy rune, not death rune, you should be using DS. Like I said, I stopped reading into the forum thread long time ago, so I'm sure it's been posted already. I didn't see any rotation mention of it on the OP, and you're more than welcome to test the rotation out yourself. Note that DS doens't benefit in anyway, shape, or form damage wise from diseases, only runic due to the glyph, so opening with it isn't at all a faulty rotation choice. Plus, if you're like my group last night and lack a MM hunter for TSA, getting AM going before diseases is also a slight DPS increase, due to the increase in AP.

jegergud · 03/24/10, 8:18 AM

Will there be any major changes in the blood dps specs after 3.3.3? (I.E. Icy Touch now applies Frost Fever and Endless Winter now no longer applies Frost Fever to the target when casting Ict Touch, but instead gives a permanent boost to strength [2/4%].)

Death Knight Changes:

DK
* Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.
* Chains of Ice: The ability now innately applies Frost Fever to a target.
* Rune of Razorice: Now stacks 5 stacks of 2% Frost Vulnerability instead of 10 stacks of 1% Frost Vulnerability. Proc chance changed to 100%.

Blood

* Abomination's Might: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc on certain strikes. Rank 1 is 5% attack power and Rank 2 is 10% attack power. The self strength buff remains unchanged.
* Will of the Necropolis: There is no longer a cooldown on the frequency at which this talent can be activated. In addition, this ability can now also be triggered by damage which deals less than 5% of your health.

Frost

* Endless Winter: No longer causes Frost Fever to be applied by Chains of Ice, but instead grants 2/4% strength.
* Icy Talons: The personal haste benefit provided by this talent is no longer exclusive with other sources of melee haste. This will allow death knights to always swing 4/8/12/16/20% faster when Frost Fever is applied. Windfury Totem and the party/raid component of Improved Icy Talons still do not stack.
* Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged.
* Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.
* Unbreakable Armor: The amount of strength granted is now 20%, up from 10%.

Unholy

* Scourge Strike: Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.
* Unholy Blight: In addition to its previous effects, this talent now also prevents diseases from being dispelled from victims afflicted by Unholy Blight.

Glyphs

* Glyph of Disease: When this glyph causes Frost Fever to be refreshed, it will now also trigger a refresh of Icy Talons.
* Glyph of Icebound Fortitude: Now always grants at least 40% damage reduction.

Valtiel · 03/24/10, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by jegergud

Will there be any major changes in the blood dps specs after 3.3.3? (I.E. Icy Touch now applies Frost Fever and Endless Winter now no longer applies Frost Fever to the target when casting Ict Touch, but instead gives a permanent boost to strength [2/4%].)

Death Knight Changes:

No further Blood changes have been announced so far; you can expect Blood to lose some competitivity towards Frost DW and Unholy Frost Sub (both specc got a dps upgrade, and Frost DW is quite likely the dominant dk dps specc now), but in general not much will change for you this patch.

Depending on how much you want to minmax your output, on whether or not you were aiming at Shadowmourne and how much faith you have in the current status of Frost DW to last (it overtook the other 2 speccs on most fights with a handful of reports on WoL, so I guess we can possibly expect a post SS buff knee jerk reaction from Blizz), you may want to investigate the opportunity to go Frost DW in case you aim at maximum dps.

Trarr · 03/25/10, 2:06 PM

So I've been floating around through the forums since 3.3.3 came out and from what I can tell, Blood is the best single target DPS spec out there, but when I switched to it from Unholy I was doing about 2k less DPS than I normally pull as Unholy. Is this because Blood needs to have a lot more ArP to be pushing out higher numbers or am I missing something? When I switched over it was just one fight, VoA 25, and I didn't change any gems. But I did about 6k instead of my normal 8-9k. Thoughts?

Camigwen · 03/25/10, 2:30 PM

Well the standard for Unholy gemming is Strength yes we look for arp on gear but it is a huge loss to dps for Unholy to use arp gemming. We also don't need to be expertise capped I generally don't go lower then 15 I am currently in my Frost gear but for Unholy I sit at 17.

Trarr · 03/25/10, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Camigwen

Well the standard for Unholy gemming is Strength yes we look for arp on gear but it is a huge loss to dps for Unholy to use arp gemming. We also don't need to be expertise capped I generally don't go lower then 15 I am currently in my Frost gear but for Unholy I sit at 17.

That's not what I asked........I know Unholy needs strength more than ArP, what I was asking was, why, for the one fight I went Blood DPS for, was my damage so much less than Unholy? As Blood do I need to be shooting for passive ArP cap? What are Blood DKs doing to be "top sustained single target and top burst" that the Unholy forum says they are?